Which Oblivion Dev Lied The Most?

[Solomon Doone]

[Todd] "As you play, you start to figure out what you can do with these NPCs, and how you can influence their behavior, and when doing a quest, it really comes into play. A simple 'get the diamond from that guy...' quest can be done in hundreds of ways now."

We have our winner ladies and gentlemen!

Great game in many respects, but the Radiant AI was beyond a joke.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Great game in many respects...

New Bethesda community manager?

 

[Ladonna]

Bethesda is trying a new tack I see.

So Soloman...give us the lowdown on Fallout 3 eh?

 

[Solomon Doone]

Bethesda is trying a new tack I see.

So Soloman...give us the lowdown on Fallout 3 eh?

Well it's going to be an FPS with lots of shiny buttons, E rated for everyone and it has Graffix through Todd, Immersion through graffix! Henceforth Todd is immersion...

Or something.

 

[Limorkil]

I am going to look at this list from the fanboi perspective and give the devs the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. Even then, it's a pack of lies ...

[Kathode] "All screenshots we've released are 100% in game showing stuff we've already got implemented. We haven't done any special poses or anything like that, with the exception of magazine covers."

This is close enough to true. Of course, you have to have a bleeding edge PC and manually crank up the graphic quality. Oblivion has a lot of junk in it that is technically "in the game" but you never actually see it, so the "already got implemented" is misleading.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I'm sorry, but what part of "without losing our hardcore rpg fans" don't you understand?"

Too subjective to comment on.

[Slateman] "Each of the faction lines in this game have plots and quests to much greater depth over MW. Quality, not quantity."

The faction quests do tend to follow more of a central, guild-related story so this is true. To be fair, some of the faction quests are damned good, but they suffer from lack of alternative solutions so I am less certain about the "quality" aspect.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I know you don't want to hear it, but you're just going to have to trust us that the dialogue is better than Morrowind's."

This is true only if dialogue means spoken, voice-acted dialogue only. Even then, the voice acting is mediocre. I would have to say that this is misleading enough to be called a lie.

[Todd] "As you play, you start to figure out what you can do with these NPCs, and how you can influence their behavior, and when doing a quest, it really comes into play. A simple 'get the diamond from that guy...' quest can be done in hundreds of ways now."

A clear lie.

[VSXX] "We have everything from mice to moles to crickets. The most fearsome you have ever seen even! You thought sleeping at night with a singing cricket outside your window was bad. You wait till you meet the one that plays a 14 piece drum set outside your window."

I just don't know what this is about. It is so far beyond reality that it does not even qualify as a lie, more of a joke.

[Pete] "Honestly, and this is just my opinion, I think the hardcore RPG guys are going to love what we have in store for them in Oblivion. The depth, the level of polish...it crushes Morrowind. That doesn't mean that other people won't want to buy it and play it because it's a beautiful game that has fun combat and cool quests. We'll make enough copies for everyone."

Not exactly a lie, since it is subjective, but you have to have your head pretty far up your own ass to think that hardcore RPG guys would like Oblivion.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You'll be reading LOTS of stuff. All of the quest lines are much more in depth, challenging and interesting. And there's a heck of a lot more to the game than just the guilds and the main quest. Lots and lots of other things to do that haven't been mentioned. Stats play a huge, huge role. Class actually has meaning this time. The game is better balanced. You have more rewards for advancement besides just getting better at things. The dungeons are better designed, the NPCs are more interesting, the dialogue is better written. If you think this is a simple, dumbed down hack & slash, you couldn't be more wrong."

Very subjective so hard to call this a lie, but most of this information definitely overstates the case. The only part that is hard to refute is "dungeons are better designed".

[BlueDev] "For Oblivion, there's a very concious effort to avoid too much random information spewing by NPCs. Fear not--there's still the same amount of info to be found in the game. In fact, the NPCs probably have more than ever to say; it just makes more sense for them to say it."

Only true if you take "say" to literally mean "say out loud", since in that case the NPCs do have a lot to say. There is not "the same amount of info to be found in the game" but it is sort of subjective so hard to call it a lie.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is infinitely superior to Morrowind in every conceivable way."

Very subjective, but I call this a lie because they must have known that they had massively reduced the number of player choices.

[MattRyan] "So for all of you thinking that it would be neat to steal something, and then take off on your horse....guess what? An NPC can do the same dirty trick to you as well. "

No they cannot. A lie.

[Todd] "The clothing you wear does affect certain NPC's, but not in a big way, it’s subtle."

This is a lie because he must have known that clothing makes no difference outside a couple of standard comments and a couple of quests.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Broken shields and weapons are automatically dropped and they clatter to the ground using Havok physics. Broken armor stays on, but is ineffective and you'll know if you're wearing broken armor or not."

All lies. You do not drop broken items and you only know they are broken if you open your inventory and inspect them. The items do not look broken.

[Slateman] "While I cannot go into detail, rest assured that even players who max out a bunch of skills will discover challenges in this game. We didn't leave you guys out "

Too subjective to comment on. The game is not very challenging overall.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Just because you can attempt to bribe someone does not mean they'll automatically accept it."

A lie.

[MattRyan] "We are gamers. We have given tons of time toward the balance of gameplay. Asside from the designers, artists, programmers, and producers.... our staff of QA testers are extremely good at exploiting our game systems and looking for loopholes in gameplay, or shortfalls in fun vs. realism.

Hard to call this a lie, but there is a lot of poor design and poor balance in the game.

In conclusion, to completely cut out any adjustment to difficulty in enemies would not be fun, just as making all creatures off-set to your level would not be fun."

But they did it anyway.

[Slateman] "Yep. To second MSFD, we don't auto-level exactly to your level. We have all sorts of adjustments available. If we didn't the game would be boring "

Not a lie, but the game is boring because the "adjustments available" are either not used or are used but are so subtle that they make little difference. For example: a bandit might be your level or 1-2 levels under your level, but you will hardly tell the difference.

[MattRyan] "If everything was leveled then you'd have no fear of anything in the game ('I can beat everything!') We plan on scaring the heck out of the player by higher level creatures."

This is a lie because everything of note is leveled.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You're walking through a seedy part of a town in Western Cyrodiil. People mill about, some engaged in conversation, others minding their own business, out on their own errands. Suddenly, an ugly man decides he doesn't like you. Maybe he's drunk, maybe he's just a bully, maybe he's just showing off in front of his friends -- but for whatever reason, he has taken your measure and decided he can best you.

He comes charging at you, with a nasty looking mace in his hand and a look of hatred on his face. Onlookers move back to make room for what should be an entertaining fight.

Quickly drawing your sword and shield, you wheel around to face him. [snip]

The crowd disperses, going back to their own business."

I cut out the long combat description. The combat description is accurate, but all talk of NPCs making AI decisions such as moving out of the way, showing off to friends, forming a crowd etc. is a lie.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We happen to think that console gamers are smarter than that, and the success of Morrowind on Xbox proves that console gamers actually ARE interested in games with MORE depth and complexity than some people seem to think they are."

True

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I absolutely guarantee that they'll be able to make mods that will completely blow away anything we saw for Morrowind, using the new Construction Set."

A lie, up to including Shivering Isles at least.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You can only use the map-based fast travel to go to places you've already been. So you'll HAVE to walk to each possible location AT LEAST once."

A lie, although having to walk to a new location at least once is usually true.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We could make traditional creatures that looked like every other depiction of those creatures you've seen in books, movies, or other games, but then where's the originality in that?"

True, although standard creatures like minotaurs and zombies look exactly like you would expect.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "NPCs would have to be told to go into your house via Radiant AI. And even if they WERE, you could always lock your door..."

A lie because you cannot lock your door.

[Slateman] "Trust me, you're going to get lost if you wander in these forests and don't use the compass or map."

Very true, but it is fun. You need a compass and a map. However, you do not really need a big arrow telling you exactly which direction to walk to get to your quest goal.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "you can enter every interior."

I think that is true. Some of the interiors are very dissapointing though.

[Pete] "There isn't a magazine on the planet that hasn't gotten information if they've asked for it."

I cannot comment on this. No idea.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Resurrected NPCs are not themselves. They're basically mindless automata who will follow you around and fight for you."

This is highly untrue. You rarely need to resurrect NPCs because the important ones cannot die. When NPCs are resurrected, they behave as normal. You cannot resurrect people as "zombies".

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is an extremely rich, complex game with a tremendous amount of depth, compelling quest lines, interesting NPC characters, a huge variety of player character types and intricate character progression set in a huge, varied game world. Combat, magic, and AI have all been dramatically improved to enhance gameplay while still providing a balance between player skill and character skill, because after all, Oblivion is a role playing game. Yes, some things that were present in Morrowind are not in Oblivion -- but a lot more has been added than removed, and the goal has always been to make a game that is both more accessible to first-time RPG players, and is also challenging and rewarding for more experienced players."

This is too subjective to evaluate. It is basically true, but you might not necessarily like the changes.

[Pete] "We will continue to support the mod community as best we can and let them do the great things they do, just as we did with Morrowind."

Sort of true, although they made a major change to the way mods work between Morrowind and Oblivion that makes it much harder for one mod to build on top of another mod's content.

[Sentinel] "The sad fact is that many development studios can't afford to bankroll their own game development. So they rely on publishers to give them the money to create these games. The problem with this is that the publisher then feels they should have input into the game since they are spending the money. Hence Atari and EA have such a big influence on a game they publish.

Just glad here at Bethesda we are our own publisher and developer and have free reign to make what we want."

This is true. However, you still may not like the results.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We're NOT going to slap in features that don't work well just to say we have them."

Like Radiant AI. So this is actually true, but had he said "We are not going to claim to have features that we actually end up not doing" then it would be a lie.

[Pete] "Holidays this year"

[Pete] "You know if you have a 360 it will look as good as it can possibly look. If you have the latest, greatest PC with the best video card, etc., it will probably look the same as the Xbox 360 version."

It looks better on the PC because modders can make it look better.

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "The compass, the quest marker and compass icons, are NOT the hand-holding, dumbing down babysitter some folks paint them out to be."

A big lie.

[Hayt] "We're around on a daily basis, and we're reading. When we're ready to comment on things, you'll all know."

No comment.

Conclusion

I think the winner is Todd, for this whopper:

[Todd] "As you play, you start to figure out what you can do with these NPCs, and how you can influence their behavior, and when doing a quest, it really comes into play. A simple 'get the diamond from that guy...' quest can be done in hundreds of ways now."

And MrSmileyFaceDude gets a prize for spewing the most misinformation and good old-fashioned BS.

The biggest lie was definitely Radiant AI, so whoever coined that phrase and used it the most (Todd I think) should get the Oscar.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

-snip-

Why do you bother? It's done several times in this thread already, from real fanboys even.

 

[Solomon Doone]

-snip-

Why do you bother? It's done several times in this thread already, from real fanboys even.

Well, real fanboys would sound something more along the lines of;

"There is nothing wrong with Oblivion, it's the best game ever! It cured cancer and invented sliced bread all on it's own! Overnight no less!"

What he did was pseudo-fanboyish, more of a realistic viewpoint in places, but who cares? I still found it somewhat humorous.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

-snip-

Why do you bother? It's done several times in this thread already, from real fanboys even.

...but who cares? I still found it somewhat humorous.

Yeah, you're right. I retract my previous statement, upon actually reading what was written.

 

[taxacaria]

Hm - I remember Pete's statement, that the game can be played in 3rd person view completely.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Hm - I remember Pete's statement, that the game can be played in 3rd person view completely.

You can play a pacifict in Mario Bros 1 and complete the game.

 

[dongle]

"All screenshots we've released are 100% in game showing stuff we've already got implemented. We haven't done any special poses or anything like that, with the exception of magazine covers."

This is close enough to true. Of course, you have to have a bleeding edge PC and manually crank up the graphic quality. Oblivion has a lot of junk in it that is technically "in the game" but you never actually see it, so the "already got implemented" is misleading.

The graphix were the biggest lie they told. One that was swallowed hook line and sinker. To this day I wonder how folks can hold Oblivion up as an example of cutting edge rendering. Even here.

Lets compare, shall we?

Bethesda Hype:

Reality:

My box isn't exactly the best you can get, it's good enough to turn all the options to max. It may run like a slideshow, but it runs long enough to take a screenshot. First thing I did was tweak options manually in the ini to even higher than max. Those shots from the codex review are the best the game can look.

Notice how all the official screenshots are carefully framed to hide the middle distance? Stuff that is right under your nose does look pretty good, I'll admit. The mountains on the horizon look OK too. The middle distance either looks like the most primitive of repeating textures, or pea soup, and this mixed together in obvious grids. That's not a nitpick, that's the majority of what you see on your screen, and it looks like shit.

Now, Kathode doesn't exactly lie there, their hype shots are done with the game engine. He carefully miss-informs while telling the literal truth. Everyone was asking; "Dude, does the game really look that good?" He takes an extremely small technicality, whether the character models are "posed" and focuses his answer solely on that. This makes you believe you'll get a game that really looks like their official screen shots do.

Guess what?

What you paid for:

What you got:

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

What you wish you got instead. :wink:

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Those shots from the codex review are the best the game can look.

While I was myself pretty dismayed at the distant / close texture transition (rather the lack thereof) and some other aspects of the engine (unusable self shadowing, horrible glare on a lot of faces, e.g.), those shots from the Codex are still about the WORST, not the best the game can look.

 

[dongle]

I'll admit readily the codex shots are framed from a viewpoint that makes them look as bad as possible, same way the Bethseda ones are framed from a view that makes them look as good as possible. My point was that even a super-computer on super-duper max settings wouldn't make them look any better. And that that is the way you see the majority of the terrain.

 

[piydek]

those things regarding graphics WERE comlpete lies until just about a month before the actual release.

just look at the 2005 (i think) E3 videos (and i'm not talking just about the shadows that were removed) and ANY screenshot released up until about february of 2006. a big big difference from the game being run on maximum settings.

in february or so, they started releasing screenshots that looked just like the game looks, which is much worse than those screenshots from before.

and also, yeah oblivion's graphics are really good only when it comes to HDR implementation. that's really good, but everything else is mediocre and the fucking LOD and grass are terrible. the first graphics mod that i wanted for oblivion is a shader to make the game foggy at the point where the LOD should begin being displayed - the way morrowind was.

i am still amazed by how many people think oblivion has l337 graphics (not that it really matters).

 

[piydek]

oh, and there is one other lie that i haven't seen mentioned. that the game world is about twice the size of morrowind's. that's complete crap. i know that morrowind had shorter view distance, that the speed of both walking and running were slower, and that the gameworld design was MUCH smarter to cover up the actually small size of the world, but still, i think oblivon's size is aproximately the same as morrowind's.

 

[JarlFrank]

It actually is a bit bigger than Morrowind, but it's just so generic that you dimply don't care because all looks the same. And it's only a minimal size difference.

Oh, and they said there were more dungeons than in Morrowind. I guess that was wrong, too. Maybe I also say that because MW's dungeons were a lot better regarding athmosphere and quality, but Oblivion really seemed to have much less dungeons.

 

[Lumpy]

snip

Not true - when I turned HDR on, it actually looked just as nice as in those screenshots - and with just as much Bloom. Water reflections certainly worked.

 

[piydek]

yeah, regarding dungeons, they were also going on and on about how all of the dungeons in oblivion were "hand crafted", where in MW they weren't. if that is true, then their designers have REALLY poor imagination.

and about the terrain being more generic and therefore also seeming smaller, yeah i think that's true as well, but just like you've said - if it's larger, then it's really marginally so. they were saying "twice" the size. also, the poor design decision of that capital city...i can't remember it's name...being seen from any point in cyrodiil doesn't help regarding perception of size either.

there is that "unique landscapes" project where modders are trying to diversify environments, and that kind of mod(s) are really needed in oblivion among so many other things, but i don't think they'll succeed in doing anything because i think their approach is not good. they continue to make the same types of terrain/atmosphere that can be seen throughout cyrodiil, the only thing they make better is the actual terrain configuration. but it still all has the exact same feel, there's no true design changes that would result in different parts of the gameworld actually FEELING different. and that should be the real goal of a project like that. the only UL part that does that to some extent is that "dark forrest" one.

 

[Mayday]

All this concentrated hate for Beth has given me these thoughts:

Ok, they lied- so we won't ever trust them again.
They made a bad game- we won't ever buy their games
They ignore us- we ignore them.

Isn't that the obvious solution? You weren't forced to buy the game. You don't hate racing-game manufacturers for making games that are poor cRPGs, do you? I didn't buy Oblivion because I was already disappointed with Morrowind.

 

[piydek]

All this concentrated hate for Beth has given me these thoughts:

Ok, they lied- so we won't ever trust them again.
They made a bad game- we won't ever buy their games
They ignore us- we ignore them.

Isn't that the obvious solution? You weren't forced to buy the game. You don't hate racing-game manufacturers for making games that are poor cRPGs, do you? I didn't buy Oblivion because I was already disappointed with Morrowind.

oh, how wonderfully rational! i feel enlighted by these things that were obscured by the cloud of unknowing to my finite consciousness, and now....i see!

p.s. i, and i could probably say "we", like bitching. another thing - it's fun to see just how sleazy certain people can be. also, it's a form of anti-propaganda, a thing that is the only possible futile attempt at changing things (by changing consciousness of others) we have nowadays. you might say we're preaching to the converted here, but i've copy/pasted these things in quite a few places where people initially weren't disgusted by beth.

 

[taxacaria]

You don't hate racing-game manufacturers for making games that are poor cRPGs, do you?

Racing game manufacturers don't tell the fans the bottom from the top about the great RPG they're makin'.
TES has been the oldest remaining long time RPG series ( ok - you can discuss the RPG character of Arena or the bugs in Daggerfall or the RPG quality of Morrowind), and they've destroyed both the series and the hope. Morrowind had some promising ideas - and there was the possibility they would avoid their failures and going to make a better RPG next time. But they developed a piece of mainstream shit, called it RPG, told a lot of lies about it and ripped-off the customers.
So it's not only simple criticism, it's more of an accusation - and there is no doubt in Bethesda's guiltiness.

 

[Mayday]

Haha, I do not doubt it either. I just thought It's not worth all the stress. However, if...

i, and i could probably say "we", like bitching

then do go for it I totally understand (and share) your anger, I just thought that the best way of expressing it is not buying their games.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Haha, I do not doubt it either. I just thought It's not worth all the stress. However, if...

i, and i could probably say "we", like bitching

then do go for it I totally understand (and share) your anger, I just thought that the best way of expressing it is not buying their games.

Well, it's more to it than that. Bethesda is being hailed as the new messiah of RPGs in all the mainstream media, and thus setting the standard for RPGs in the Industry. They've sold millions of copies based as a result from idiot-reviews and lying hype. Every RPG (not that it's been that many) reviewed or previewed after the release is, without exception, compared to Oblivion in one way or another. If this isn't worth bitching about, not much is.

 

[Mayday]

Hmmm... this must have been mostly due to my pessimistic nature, but I overlooked the individual response's meaning to the development of the genre.

Whether you like it or not, we- the hardcore RPGers are a minority. The big companies will ALWAYS disregard as (even if they may pretend that they're not - to get the extra cash of the suckers, just like Bethesda did). The true pearls of the genre will be getting more and more scarce as the industry grows from the early days of small-group-of-fanatics-makes-a-game to a-huge-studio-of-koreans-is-hired-just-to-do-the-animation-of-one-model. There's certainly nothing we can do other than start making our own games (Like the AoD guys, or my humble plan). AND thanks to products like Blender, Ogre3d and the likes, this is getting easier.