Why do many RPG fans hate crafting?

[JarlFrank]

Good crafting:
socketing items in Diablo 2.
broken unique items in Baldur's Gate 2 that have to be re-forged (Flail of Ages)
Making powerful items from very rare and hard to obtain ingredients (like dragon skin armor or demon tooth axes or whatever)

Bad crafting:
collect 10 plants to make a healing potion
mine ore so you can forge a standard non-enchanted sword that is identical to the swords you can get for 50 gold at the next vendor's
forge powerful items from common ingredients

I'd argue the crafting you're describing is not crafting, it's really sidequests - town wizard says "bring me King Rat penis and Qeen Dragoness pussy and imma make you a sword squirting acid", that's not crafting.

And the thing with plants is alchemy and I quite like that, if well implemented (Gothic, Risen 1, Witcher 1). You can either buy potions (at non-trivial prices) or invest points in alchemy and craft them (plus better versions, plus shit you can't buy). That's good.

Which basically proves that crafting is only good when it's not really crafting

 

[Ludo Lense]

If there is anything I have learned from this thread is that people consider BG's II finding blade pieces crafting. Which essentially means you like finding gear the old fashion way. Guys, it could have been literally 3 keys and a chest rather than pieces that need to be reforged.

Let us take the most "crafting" oriented quest I know, namely forging the meteor sword in Arx Fatalis:

Spoiler

-Find tome of forging
-Go to dorfs
-Get Mithril Block
-Put Power Stone into Transporter
-Put Mithril Block in Transporter
-Put Power Stone into Crusher
-Put Mithril Block under Crusher
-Activate Crusher
-Get Mithril ore
-Put Power Stone into Smelter
-Put Mithril ore in Smelter
-Get Mithril Ingot
-Put Cast into Forge
-Put Mithril Ingot in Oven
-Activate Forge
-Get Mithril Sword
-Go to Dragon
-Obtain Dragon Egg
-Combine Dragon Egg with Mithril Sword
-Combine Meteorite Powder with Mithril Sword
-Cast Enchant Object on Mithril Sword
-Done

Since Arx goes for a slightly simulationist bent for a sense of verisimilitude, it goes far and beyond most crafting systems interaction-wise but I still wouldn't say you have a blacksmith crafting system in the game.

 

[Theldaran]

Oh, how to forget KOTOR's lovely crafting system. First game was right, even though the special saber crystals were fucking costly. Second game was ridiculous and could overpower you. Hooray Obsidian.

 

[SwiftCrack]

Crafting in the BG2 combine two or more items into a (slightly) better one is the best form. Collect 500 ingots for a bronze sword is the worst.

 

[Theldaran]

Just another thing NWN did worse.

 

[asfasdf]

Thing is, crafting is usually an afterthought in RPGs. They add it as a side feature that adds little to the game. It ends up being either a chore or completely irrelevant. Leave crafting for other type of games.

 

[Theldaran]

Unless it breaks the "balance" as in KOTOR 2. Between insane blasters and crazy Force powers, it's clear it wasn't directed by Sawyer.

 

[anvi]

It can be really good, but they always make it grindy to be a deliberate timesink to pad out the game. I can only think of a few times that it was good, but a million times it was terrible.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Crafting generally sucks because it's not crafting at all, it's just using a different form of currency to buy items.

Consider Skyrim -- Collect iron ore + leather to 'craft' an Iron Sword. How is this any different from buying the sword with gold? It isn't. Most crafting is like this, just use alternate currency to buy stuff. At least with Skyrim crafting takes the randomness out of weapon drops.

MMO's get really bad - collect 15 different currencies with 1% drop rates to buy your item. No thanks.

The only game I can think of with a crafting system I actually liked was the otherwise-bland Kingdoms of Amalur. In that game you broke down items to get random parts, and then could assemble the parts to your liking to make custom items. That's actual crafting.

 

[Neanderthal]

Thing is, crafting is usually an afterthought in RPGs. They add it as a side feature that adds little to the game. It ends up being either a chore or completely irrelevant. Leave crafting for other type of games.

Sorry mate but gotta disagree there, we've had twenty years o removin shit from games an they've not got any better, time they thought about improving stuff instead o gettin a free pass by strippin yet another feature.

 

[agris]

Thing is, crafting is usually an afterthought in RPGs. They add it as a side feature that adds little to the game. It ends up being either a chore or completely irrelevant. Leave crafting for other type of games.

Sorry mate but gotta disagree there, we've had twenty years o removin shit from games an they've not got any better, time they thought about improving stuff instead o gettin a free pass by strippin yet another feature.

But isn't crafting, as it has been implemented in most cases, allowed the stripping of another system? Hand-placed loot and thoughtful, meaningful itemization?

 

[Neanderthal]

Do both well, they're not mutually exclusive.

As I said earlier no adventurer should know any o skills of an expert artisan, too busy survivin, owt they can make at low levels should be cheap an cheerful crap thats o lowest quality. Have to wait for high levels to start enchantin stuff, an they'll still not know how to pattern weld, heat treat, fettle, float an edge or what have you.

Though I did have a fire mage in an old pen an paper campaign who made a small business casting continual light on pebbles, an sellin em to peasantry.

 

[Delterius]

If there is anything I have learned from this thread is that people consider BG's II finding blade pieces crafting. Which essentially means you like finding gear the old fashion way.

Well, in my case that was part of the argument. I'm trying approaching Crafting from a narrative sense. When a game is 80% about dungeon delving and exploration, you might as well make a 'Crafting scenario' out of that instead of veering towards an entirely new set of mechanics.

If you want to make a Crafting system, make it an integral part of my character. Allow me to create an Alchemist who creates potions for a living and abominations for bodyguards. Or some mad tesla coil wielding scientist like in Arcanum.

 

[agris]

Though I did have a fire mage in an old pen an paper campaign who made a small business casting continual light on pebbles, an sellin em to peasantry.

And our table-top group met an elf who made belt buckles that we enslaved to mass-produce elvish belt buckles (getting the 'elvish' material advantage) and made elvish buckle-mail out of them.

What of it man?! We're talking cRPGs here!

 

[laclongquan]

You were lucky the Ancient and Honorable Union of Elven Craftmen didnt investigate this obvious attempt to crash the market on Elven goods. They would send a party of Elven Investigation Committee on your asses faster than you can say "quick, let's corner that market".

 

[imweasel]

Crafting is fine if done well, but it is usually way too metagamey and can get repetitive and annoying because all of the micromanagement (especially in games with 150+ crafting ingredients). It can also break the in-game economy.

It is pretty much just filler that doesn't improve gameplay in any way.

 

[Turok]

Because what you craft usually is not better than unique items found on games, right?

 

[Howdy]

I think Cobbett did a piece on 'fuck crafting' recently, and he was spot on. Let me make some shitty gear at the start, and then let me augment, beautify and scale my shit throughout the game, because its MY shit. And then by the end after all the adventuring, and what not, that you've been through with your shit it really means something. I hate getting something, finding a better thing, making an even better thing and chucking away all my old shitty stuff. I've become sentimental to my gear and want to give it to my grandkids, with an epic story attached, dammit.

Edit: unless its Neo Scavenger. Which is just the best.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I think Cobbett did a piece on 'fuck crafting' recently, and he was spot on. Let me make some shitty gear at the start, and then let me augment, beautify and scale my shit throughout the game, because its MY shit. And then by the end after all the adventuring, and what not, that you've been through with your shit it really means something. I hate getting something, finding a better thing, making an even better thing and chucking away all my old shitty stuff. I've become sentimental to my gear and want to give it to my grandkids, with an epic story attached, dammit.

Edit: unless its Neo Scavenger. Which is just the best.

I can't say I've ever become attached to any items in cRPGs, and why would he give his stuff to his grandkids? Wouldn't they want to to craft their own shit in such a scenario...? The thematic part of uber-magical items in cRPGs is that the best items are rare, very rare, and only come around once per century and then develop their own history as people have fought over their ownership or lost them to legend via death and mystery. If every Tom, Dick and Harry can craft whatever they want then where's the magic and mystery?

 

[Howdy]

I can't say I've ever become attached to any items in cRPGs, and why would he give his stuff to his grandkids?

You have no soul, man.

 

[Beastro]

Hate crafting in single player games, tolerate it in MMOs.

What I really like is quests where you work on rebuilding a legendary wep or crafting a new one. I think something about the process blends very well with "questing" and it's why so many felt let down in PoE by the Blade of the Endless Paths that was nothing special.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Though I did have a fire mage in an old pen an paper campaign who made a small business casting continual light on pebbles, an sellin em to peasantry.

If a continual light spell is cast on a pebble, and the pebble is later destroyed, what happens to the continual light?

 

[hilfazer]

in PoE by the Blade of the Endless Paths that was nothing special.

It's pretty good, it just didn't work properly before 2.0 due to attack speed being bugged.
And it has Marking ability: +10 accuracy to closest ally attacking same target. Maybe it's not best for kids, who want to do most damage themselves, but smarter players can put it to good use, like improving chance to land CC spell of your ally. I like using it with Whipser of Treason, for example.

Oh, and Marking was bugged too but it's fixed now.

 

[Neanderthal]

Though I did have a fire mage in an old pen an paper campaign who made a small business casting continual light on pebbles, an sellin em to peasantry.

And our table-top group met an elf who made belt buckles that we enslaved to mass-produce elvish belt buckles (getting the 'elvish' material advantage) and made elvish buckle-mail out of them.

What of it man?! We're talking cRPGs here!

You may think you're helping by subjugating the duplicitous Elf, you are not, in fact you do great harm. The Elf cannot be allowed to live among us even in chains, his sly mouth twists in pleasure when he is allowed this opportunity, for he knows as do all the wise that his mere presence is a miasma of sickness and indecency. See how his evil eyes watch you from the supposed captivity of slavery, he is no slave but a spy amongst us, a taint on our pure blood and the only solution is to sever that cancer so that the body might grow strong again. Build an empire on the slavery of Elves and you have but assured the doom of all you have wrought, for nothing good can grow from tainted soil.

Slay the Elf, slay his brood mare, smash his childs skull to pieces and do all this out of mercy and hope for a better tomorrow. Then you may be assured of your righteousness.

Oh an post were to demonstrate that a good magic system can let you cheat certain shit, like enchantin arrows in Ultima to produce some o best weapons in game.

 

[Dedup]

Though I did have a fire mage in an old pen an paper campaign who made a small business casting continual light on pebbles, an sellin em to peasantry.

If a continual light spell is cast on a pebble, and the pebble is later destroyed, what happens to the continual light?

I think you would end up with glitterdust that's permanent until it's washed off.