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Why do you think people will buy your game?

psycojester

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 23, 2006
Messages
2,526
I don't care if you use Tetris blocks for characters in the game, if it's a good RPG then I'll like it.

Tetris the RPG..... I would so play that. I'd probably play through the game as the L shaped block to begin with maybe rotate it around level 4.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Vault Dweller said:
The "how well would it sell" factor didn't influence the design process at all.

*cough* horse shit *cough*.

I'm sure many of us remember 2D screen shots, and the meh response from rpgdot and some others. You went to 3D and prettier graphics because you belived it was necessary to have a chance at selling enough copies to keep your team together for another game.
 

hiciacit

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
406
Location
I've been there
Hehe, good one. Bit cheap though. I don't think any significant changes were made that would compromise the gameplay to accomodate for more sales. I guess you could argue that the switch from 2D to 3D has an effect on actual gameplay, but it's not like the combat is suddenly in realtime or anything. There is nothing wrong with making your game prettier as long as it's not done at the cost of more important things.
 

The_Pope

Scholar
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
844
Thats not a gameplay change, so it doesn't really count. It's more a question of not killing his target audience with eye cancer.
 

Nedrah

Erudite
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
1,693
Location
Germany
Real developers make their players read binary for playing.
Listening to your userbase? Woah. Sellout. I'm disgusted.
 

Astromarine

Erudite
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
2,213
Location
Switzerland
the 2d to 3d change didn't influence the design process one fucking iota, and any amount of reading comprehension would have told you that. It merely influenced the release date. Nothing else. If any influence was felt at all, it was POSITIVE influence, by allowing VD a lot more time sitting on the finished gameplay model while they waited for the new graphics to tweak, test, alter, and refine. So kindly grow a brain.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
obediah said:
Vault Dweller said:
The "how well would it sell" factor didn't influence the design process at all.

*cough* horse shit *cough*.

I'm sure many of us remember 2D screen shots, and the meh response from rpgdot and some others. You went to 3D and prettier graphics because you belived it was necessary to have a chance at selling enough copies to keep your team together for another game.
Well, first of all, there is a difference between self-preservation and making profitable games. Troika was an example of the former, while Bioware is an example of the latter. Second, switching to 3D allowed us to increase the variety of models and animations.
 

Joff1981

Educated
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
59
Project: Eternity
[volournmode]
Troika an example of self preservation? r00fles!
[/volournmode]
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
It goes without saying (or so I thought) that not every attempt is successful. Not every attempt to make a bestselling action RPG or the most amazing MMORPG like evar ends up with an inappropriately large bank account.
 

Veracity

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
155
Elhoim said:
I wonder about the reason for the massive influx of dumbfucks...
Has aweigh been uncharacteristically inactive during the latest outbreak of staggering dumbfuckery? I never dare guess, though, considering other accounts I would have laid money were troll alts seem to have been genuine cretins.

Argumentative art style chap was right on one point (or would've been, had he actually stopped ranting at that stage) - some people differ so wildly in aesthetic preference that almost any attempt at communication on the subject is doomed. Gorgeous vs arse, for instance, except I'm not going to waste time trying to convince anyone who thinks otherwise that they're wrong.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Vault Dweller said:
obediah said:
Vault Dweller said:
The "how well would it sell" factor didn't influence the design process at all.

*cough* horse shit *cough*.

I'm sure many of us remember 2D screen shots, and the meh response from rpgdot and some others. You went to 3D and prettier graphics because you belived it was necessary to have a chance at selling enough copies to keep your team together for another game.
Well, first of all, there is a difference between self-preservation and making profitable games. Troika was an example of the former, while Bioware is an example of the latter. Second, switching to 3D allowed us to increase the variety of models and animations.

I'm not accusing you of design-by-focus-group greed-fuled ass-hattery. But going back to early threads on download sizes, you have asked variations of the question 'would you buy a game if ...", and solicited feedback on design from potential customers. Your goal seems to be to carve out a niche that can sustain you and you would be happy developing for. I think that is a great plan, that can result in great games, but it contradicts the quote above.

Sourceforge is clogged with dead projects of people that set out to make the games of their dreams with no thought of potential sales. The games that see the light of day from this design are usually pieces of shit with maybe a few nice ideas mixed in. It's a huge handicap to build a game with this mindset, especially something as complex as AoD. For you to claim that AoD was designed with absolutely no thought to how many copies it would sell would be fradulent. I don't think this was your intention, but you should be careful of your phrasing.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
obediah said:
But going back to early threads on download sizes, you have asked variations of the question 'would you buy a game if ...", and solicited feedback on design from potential customers. Your goal seems to be to carve out a niche that can sustain you and you would be happy developing for. I think that is a great plan, that can result in great games, but it contradicts the quote above.
Which thread you are talking about? This one?
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 58&start=0

If that's the one, then I still disagree with you. The questions asked were not of the "what can I do to get your money?", but of the "what's important for you?" variety. Even the download size discussion was not about selling more copies, but making the game accessible for people who might be interested in it. Even though most people would prefer 50-100 MB downloads, we are not doing anything to reduce the size to sell more copies.

For you to claim that AoD was designed with absolutely no thought to how many copies it would sell would be fradulent.
Well, I'm not a naive noob, hopefully you'd agree with that. We both know that AoD will NOT be a top-seller. We also both know what features should be added/removed to make the game more sellable. I'm not doing that. I'm well aware that Zero-Sum is out of business, while Fate sold a shitload of copies. So, when I say that AoD was designed with absolutely no thought to how many copies it would sell, you can believe me.

Is money important to me? Yes. Would I like AoD to sell a lot? Abso-fucking-lutely. Would I like to make games for a living? You betcha! The catch is, being a stubborn old man, I'd like to make games that I like. If there is a market for such games - great. If not, well, I tried.
 

Sarkile

Magister
Patron
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
1,380
I don't understand why people bitch about the graphics so much. This game looks like it was made this decade to me, not like that Rainer Dyke who thinks the first Final Fantasy had better graphics.
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,878
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
I think that the point is not adding better graphics or not, but what is sacrificed to add them. I´m pretty sure that if the game could magically have Oblivion or Gothic graphics without sacrificing any of the others areas it would have them. But the real deal is that if you want that kind of graphics you HAVE to sacrifice something, usually gameplay, but it will sell more (at least in the beggining).

What VD made was something that increased graphical quality without having to sacrifice anything else, so it´s kinda like a bonus.

Take for example the interface. It makes the game look better, and they aren´t sacrificing anything to get it (well, I´m the one making the sacrifice! :lol:). So he is making the game look better and he added it because the codexers asked for a less ugly interface. But I don´t think that he is "selling out" for this, not even a little bit. He would like the game to play and look as best as possible, but I´m sure he won´t sacrifice the "play" part for the "look" one. If he does someday, he probably be selling himself out.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Vault Dweller said:
Even the download size discussion was not about selling more copies, but making the game accessible for people who might be interested in it.

"Making the game accessible for people who might be interested in it" is one of many design decisions you can make to sell more copies. It's also a great example of how making a decision to sell more copies doesn't necessarily mean "selling out". It also contradicts

So, when I say that AoD was designed with absolutely no thought to how many copies it would sell, you can believe me.

From the years of discussion, you clearly want a certain type of gamer to play and enjoy your game. Since you're not giving it away, those goals are inseperable from sales, even with the shareware model.

The distinction I'm trying to make has nothing to do with greed. It's about designing a game for yourself vs designing it for a group of people. If AoD was purely masturbatory, I doubt we would have had nearly as much discussion about it's design. It probably wouldn't turn out as good either. But at this point, you can't put all that back in the bag and say you don't care about what anyone else wants in an rpg.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
You should have joined a real game company like Bioware or Obsidian.
Look at JE Sawyer, for example. I think that he's a talented designer, who has a lot of great ideas, but, unfortunately, the only way to share his ideas with the players is to make an unofficial mod in his spare time. Now, THAT is sad. It's a true fucking testament to what the industry has become.

People who truly enjoy making games have an hard time in this business working to companies like Bioware or EA.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
obediah said:
From the years of discussion, you clearly want a certain type of gamer to play and enjoy your game. Since you're not giving it away, those goals are inseparable from sales, even with the shareware model.

A well made game should always sell well with a bit of good publicity. If you concern yourself only with making a good game then you are assured a product that will sell.

Usability concerns will make it easier to sell for people who aren't familiar with rpgs and everyone else as well. It's much more clear to navigate and look for buttons in the new and better organized interface than in the old one.

Theres something to learn in terms of usability from NWN and Bioware in this area. I'm not a blind critic of their games and know where they have done very well and that is their interface. There's plenty of help windows in character creation that describe every aspect of the game to new players. Adding help wizards, popup descriptions and help windows to a game at all times is also a way to make it more usable.

Fallout was also very good with this. It exposed all the formulas used to calculate chances in the char panel as well as allowed us to browse all skills and attributes and obtain a description. Not every detail was explained like the formula used to obtain the effective fire range from perception but they practically got the manual in the game interface.
 

Ahzaruuk

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 15, 2006
Messages
1,184
Location
Just a city called Sirius.
Stalagmite said:
Too much furry porn costing you the pretty penny, huh?
I haven't payed a dime for that stuff. That's what Fchan is for. :P

But on a serious note, I just want to get away from the sparkly hype games for a while. It's what you feel like after you've eaten nothing but McDonalds for a year: Just need to get away from the Artery-clogging stuff.
 

roguefrog

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
Messages
545
Location
Tokyo, Japan
People who truly enjoy making games have an hard time in this business working to companies like Bioware or EA.

Define hard time. I'm sure those that work at EA or Bioware all enjoy their jobs or else they would likely quit. It's a huge time investment, long hours in crunch mode to meet deadlines, to ship a game. Also last I heard Doug Church and Randy Smith are at EA, and I think those two truly love making games.
 

One Wolf

Scholar
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
311
Location
Planet X
for what it's worth, i think AoD looks fine. good even. rainer's examples of good looking games were seriously painful to look at. if AoD looked like one of those i would sorely disappointed. that shit looked horrible. and his example of the "too dark" screenshot looked great to me, the candle as the light source was nice and atmospheric. i like dark environments to look dark. there's no infravision in AoD.
 

Dagon

Scholar
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
108
Location
POLAND
The game looks OK to me.
I don't mean Beautiful but it looks playable and quite nice, there is a huge improvement on graphics also, the textures seems to be more hi-res than earlie. And the thing that the interfaces are being redesigned is a very good thing, beacuase it's one of really important part of any rpg, it helps building atmosphere etc. just look at Fallout interface.

My only advice is to improve the ligthning system, making the game more shadowy and dark, It would be nice improvement, which will help a lot in building the dark fantasy mood.
However I will probably buy this game anyway.

BTW. Good work, I'm looking forward to see and play it
 

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