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Why so few superhero rpgs?

Lyric Suite

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It's just the kwantard fanbois want readymade overpowered supers.

This is the inane objection in this entire thread. Le edgy complex of superiority from people who don't seem to understand what super heroes are.

Really? Have you ever looked at tabletop RPGs? Here's a Champions character sheet - plenty of stats to play around with:
kMlUVLj.jpg

The they fact they made PnP games out of super heroes doesn't mean it actually works. The objection is that you cannot have character progression. Even if you were to create a system that does include progression you'd have a discrepancy with how super heroes work in their own medium which means super hero fans would have nothing to relate to.
 
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Zombra

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Yes, some abilities could effectively break some game mechanics and the Dev would need to take that into account. But who says any of the playable superheroes have to fly? Are you seriously saying a "proper incline" RPG of say, Wolverine, wouldn't be interesting?
At that point though, why not just make a Wolverine action game? One of the best parts of RPGs is making a character or party and growing your build the way you want. Honestly the idea of playing a Wolverine game where he starts off with weak powers and then gets better at them by levelling up sounds stupid as hell to me. I don't care about watching some established character level up. I care about watching my character level up. But in a superhero game this is meaningless if I can't choose from a bunch of crazy powers. And Telengard is right in that most super powers have to have the game space reformatted to accomodate them. What if I want to make a hero who can slow down time? Suddenly the whole combat engine has to be changed. RPGs always make you choose things from a list, but in a superhero game that list feels way more limited, because the scope of the genre is so crazy and should be "anything goes". But it can't be anything goes because the engine has to be built to accommodate very specific things; it can't expand on the fly.
 

Telengard

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Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.
Both of which suck. And would suck even harder as crgs.

To illustrate why they would suck so hard, take the endless Marvel Diablos clones. Lots of powers in there. But they have to dumb most of those powers down to make them fit the gameworld and action. Fly becomes hover. Ice sheet becomes contextual. Superstrong becomes contextual and +damage.

For fly to be meaningful, there has to be an Up to fly to. There is no Up in RPGs. For superspeed to be meaningful, battlefields have to be ginormous so you can do more than start/stop. For superstrong to be meaningful, the environment has to be destructible. For wall stickiness to be meaningful, you have to be able to climb to weird and unusual places. Etc.

Superpowers tend to work best remaining in the imagination, such as pnp or comic books give you, or as mmorpgs and 3rd person open world action games, where the player is free to use super powers as they will. Which is why there are an overabundance of 3rd person open world superhero action games, and almost no fixed combat versions, like RPGs.
What the fuck? This must be the stupidest counter argument in this thread against superhero RPGs. There is nothing, NOTHING about superheroes which couldn't be translated into a cRPGs. When you are playing a mage in any fantasy RPG, you are playing a fucking superhero already. And there is no problem with that.

What is the problem with flying? Can't you make 3 dimensional maps in 2015? Superspeed doesn't need to be so fast that you just start/stop. Just be very fast, like in the Jedi Knight games, when you use Force Run, or in D&D, using haste (you can amp haste up much more, to give more superspeed feel to it). Destructible enviroment is not a problem. Wall climbing detto. There is no real reason why a superhero RPG couldn't exist.

A superhero could have progression, just like any RPG character, because a hero shouldn't have all his powers from the beginning.

I don't know why is this an argument at all. It is so obvious.
If one person in a party can fly - actually fly - then the developer needs to develop three game areas, the upper zone and the lower zone and the air zone. That's two zones where the rest of the party do not operate, where not much will be. Plus with flight, real flight, most enemies are no longer a challenge, because you can just fly away. So ground combat is pointless. Even ranged ground combat is pointless. The only enemies that are a challenge are those who can also fly.

If you give people Improved Initiative instead of superspeed, then you're no longer playing a superhero game, not in crpg terms, because it won't visually any longer be faster than anyone else. You'll just move first. Which is nothing in crpg terms. Or if you have a slightly faster movement rate, not visually distinct from anyone else. Like Bullet's speedy power, it wasn't really super speed, just a special amp, and even then the open area combats of that game constrained what he could do, making him one of the least supra characters in the game. Take away his suit and stick him in a regular game, and no one would notice, because he's not supra.
 

Alchemist

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The objection is that you cannot have character progression.
Who says you can't have progression? Some authority on high that governs the representation of the superhero genre? Champions has progression - you earn points throughout the campaign which you use to further build your character, add new powers and such.
 

Mustawd

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Yes, some abilities could effectively break some game mechanics and the Dev would need to take that into account. But who says any of the playable superheroes have to fly? Are you seriously saying a "proper incline" RPG of say, Wolverine, wouldn't be interesting?
At that point though, why not just make a Wolverine action game? One of the best parts of RPGs is making a character or party and growing your build the way you want. Honestly the idea of playing a Wolverine game where he starts off with weak powers and then gets better at them by levelling up sounds stupid as hell to me. I don't care about watching some established character level up.

I dunno. Taking him from beginning, through weapon X, through freak out, through Sabertooth BS, through finding the X men, through etc. seems like interesting progression to me. Granted, that's more of a storyfag perspective for sure. So I could see your point about using already established Supers. Like if you had Professor X...and you wanted to make him a superfast runner like Quicksilver..well pretty sure that's a minor ADA issue there. :P


I care about watching my character level up. But in a superhero game this is meaningless if I can't choose from a bunch of crazy powers. And Telengard is right in that most super powers have to have the game space reformatted to accomodate them. What if I want to make a hero who can slow down time? Suddenly the whole combat engine has to be changed. RPGs always make you choose things from a list, but in a superhero game that list feels way more limited, because the scope of the genre is so crazy and should be "anything goes". But it can't be anything goes because the engine has to be built to accommodate very specific things; it can't expand on the fly.


The point I was trying to make was that the Superhero genre is interesting not only because of the individual powers. Look at some of the X Men: Wolverine (heals super fast and has sharp cat claws), Beast (shave bro), Colossus (steroids), Rogue (too clingy), Gambit (why throw only cards? Why?? Throw bullets FFS)....These are not "anything goes" type of superheroes. These are characters with interesting context and backstories.

So going back to my Wolverine analogy...IF you made a character like him...took him through similar progression..how is that not interesting (assuming you as the player are driving his progression)?
 

Lyric Suite

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Let's put it this way. Take level 20 D&D warrior, wipe memory, loose him upon the world. Same as level 1?
 

Lyric Suite

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Nonsense, and I wouldn't want to play established characters like that anyway. I'd much rather build my own team of heroes from scratch.

Yes, and all your characters would not be able to resemble established characters in the least, at which point, why bother with super heroes?
 

Mustawd

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Let's put it this way. Take level 20 D&D warrior, wipe memory, loose him upon the world. Same as level 1?


Maybe..maybe not. It can be done either way. See Jason Bourne for the latter and Wolverine for the former (pretty sure he lost his memory..dunno, I haven't read comics since I was a kid).
 

Abu Antar

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Last superhero RPG we got (that I can remember) was X-Men Destiny.
 

Lhynn

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Yes, and all your characters would not be able to resemble established characters in the least, at which point, why bother with super heroes?
What? this sort of idiocy makes me doubt youve ever read a comic. While super heroes dont get new super powers and those superpowers they do have tend to remain static, they do become more experienced, they learn new things, like martial techniques, improve their gear, learn new tricks with them, etc.

Suggesting that super heroes dont progress and develop shows an amount of ignorance i frankly didnt think you were capable of displaying. Ah well.
 
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Zombra

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Wolverine in the context of all the X Men did not have the best abilities. It was his backstory (aka Weapon X, Attitude, Sabertooth rivalry), etc. which gave him his appeal
What? His appeal is that he's an edgy badass with an up close personal fighting style and invulnerabilitiness who plays by his own rules and chomps a cigar. Maybe comic nerds care about his backstory, but that's not his image and it's absolutely not what a Wolvie RPG that sold more than 2 copies would be about.

Shit, am I arguing about superheroes on the internet now? Look what you made me do.

The point I was trying to make was that the Superhero genre is interesting not only because of the individual powers. Look at some of the X Men: Wolverine (heals super fast and has sharp cat claws), Beast (shave bro), Colossus (steroids), Rogue (too clingy), Gambit (why throw only cards? Why?? Throw bullets FFS)....These are not "anything goes" type of superheroes. These are characters with interesting context and backstories.

So going back to my Wolverine analogy...IF you made a character like him...took him through similar progression..how is that not interesting (assuming you as the player are driving his progression)?
Are you talking about an RPG where I make my own characters, or a visual novel that lets me watch Wolverine's heartrending personal tale of tribulations?

And the X-Men absolutely are "anything goes" powered characters. They don't all have every power; if you think that's what I meant you're completely, completely missing the point. The point is that their abilities are a ridiculous grab bag that no game designer could predict without reading the comics about those specific characters in advance.

Try this experiment as an example. Write down on paper some basic guidelines for your superhero CRPG: what the combat will look like, what the gameplay will look like. Make sure you are done with that step before you go to the next step. Got it? OK. Now ask 8 random Codexers to make up superheroes to play in your game. See how many of the characters they come up with completely break the game design you sketched out earlier. Probably damn near all of them. That's what I mean when I say it's hard to build a superhero game. The scope of the genre is too crazy.
 

Lyric Suite

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Yes, and all your characters would not be able to resemble established characters in the least, at which point, why bother with super heroes?
What? this sort of idiocy makes me doubt youve ever read a comic. While super heroes dont get super powers and those superpowers remain static, they do become more experienced, they learn new things, like martial techniques, improve their gear, learn new tricks with them, etc.

Suggesting that super heroes dont progress and develop shows an amount of ignorance i frankly didnt think you were capable of displaying. Ah well.

Pure nonsense. The entire idea behind super heroes is precisely that they don't change. Super heroes are basically walking ideas and archetypes. They are only secondarily actual individuals. Of course, there's a million of various exceptions to this but that is the "rule" that defines this genre.
 

Lhynn

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Pure nonsense. The entire idea behind super heroes is precisely that they don't change. Super heroes are basically walking ideas and archetypes. They are only secondarily actual individuals. Of course, there's a million of various exceptions to this but that is the "rule" that defines this genre.
Nope, that is the impression the people that dont read comic gets about those characters, but it couldnt be farther from the truth. A well written comic will portray a faithful representation of a character. That is what they call the voice, some authors do a praiseworthy job at bringing out the voice of the character, making it feel like its really them making the calls. This can be seen a lot more with secondary characters, legacy heroes, etc. where authors can take more liberties with said characters without risking getting stoned by the fans.
You can take the third robin being trained in acrobatics, then in bo, then developing his intelligence in a way that allows him to take advantaje of it during fights, slowly becoming more experienced, taking down petty criminals, then working his way tru the entire batman villain rooster, finally rivalling bruce wayne in wits, beating the strongest martial artist in the world and a whole bunch of etcs.
There is a very real progression in the 30 years and change it was published, i know because i read it all, this is not unique to this character.
Superman learning kryptonian martial arts, disciplines to shield his mind, etc. Logan learning several languages, becoming very proficient with the use of computers, etc.

The progression is rather flat, but its definitely there, and without having to worry about powercreep the game can focus on the characters and their actions. It is sweet, but sadly in my experience PnP players and comic fans demographics dont overlap that much, at least not in argentina.
 

Telengard

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There is no Up in RPGs.

Oh.. this is a unique type of crazy.

What you ACTUALLY means is there is RARELY an 'up' in RPG's... but that as zip to do with RPG's and everything to do with devs not creating a z-axis for their engines.
1) Once they implement the z-axis, then the devs must fill the new spaces that the player can now enter, otherwise everyone complains about there being nothing there. Plus that it looks awful. So, triple dev time and costs to cover three distinct visual areas for each space in the game.
2) Once you can fly high in the sky, melee combatants can never hit you. Ever.
3) Ranged ground combatants can only hit you if you choose to fly close enough for them to shoot you. And you can abandon combat with them at any time, because you can fly away into open space, where they can't follow.
4) If one member of the party is flying and nobody else is, then the dev has to build two separate areas for just the flyer to see and interact with, while the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs. Putting bunches of time and resources into an aspect of the game that will only be underutilized and half-baked, all so people can say - oh cool, look, I can fly; now I have to go land so I can play another portion of the game with the rest of the party. Repeat

Essentially Fly in an RPG, like most superpowers, is Easy mode. It defeats any opponent that can't also fly, it always you to safely retreat any time you want. And it instantly divorces you from the regular game content. And it does so by demanding a huge devotion of resources on the dev's part. So, lots of time and money spent on something to break the game. Yay.

Which is why the Marvel and FF games give you the power to Hover and call it Fly.
 

Zombra

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Pure nonsense. The entire idea behind super heroes is precisely that they don't change. Super heroes are basically walking ideas and archetypes. They are only secondarily actual individuals. Of course, there's a million of various exceptions to this but that is the "rule" that defines this genre.
I wouldn't call that the "entire idea behind superheroes", but you have a point. The thing is that this is largely true in all adventure fiction. Conan performed many audacious exploits, but he never fundamentally changed; yet sword & sorcery RPGs have character advancement. Kirk and Spock didn't start out as weaklings and later become great heroes; yet sci-fi RPGs have character advancement. Sure, you can point to occasional examples like Luke Skywalker who started out as a dumb kid and later became a sweet Jedi, but there are superhero examples of this too, like Jean Grey. Mostly, adventure and pulp fiction is about awesome people who start awesome and go do awesome things. Superheroes don't have some kind of special claim on static characters. And, again, as someone who has played them, superhero RPGs can absolutely work with meaningful character advancement.
 
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SarcasticUndertones

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There is no Up in RPGs.

Oh.. this is a unique type of crazy.

What you ACTUALLY means is there is RARELY an 'up' in RPG's... but that as zip to do with RPG's and everything to do with devs not creating a z-axis for their engines.
1) Once they implement the z-axis, then the devs must fill the new spaces that the player can now enter, otherwise everyone complains about there being nothing there. Plus that it looks awful. So, triple dev time and costs to cover three distinct visual areas for each space in the game.
2) Once you can fly high in the sky, melee combatants can never hit you. Ever.
3) Ranged ground combatants can only hit you if you choose to fly close enough for them to shoot you. And you can abandon combat with them at any time, because you can fly away into open space, where they can't follow.
4) If one member of the party is flying and nobody else is, then the dev has to build two separate areas for just the flyer to see and interact with, while the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs. Putting bunches of time and resources into an aspect of the game that will only be underutilized and half-baked, all so people can say - oh cool, look, I can fly; now I have to go land so I can play another portion of the game with the rest of the party. Repeat

Essentially Fly in an RPG, like most superpowers, is Easy mode. It defeats any opponent that can't also fly, it always you to safely retreat any time you want. And it instantly divorces you from the regular game content. And it does so by demanding a huge devotion of resources on the dev's part. So, lots of time and money spent on something to break the game. Yay.

Which is why the Marvel and FF games give you the power to Hover and call it Fly.

1) Yes, that's the way things usually go. A dev designs a space and then they fill it with content.

2)That's why ranged attacks exists.... flying characters can't hit melees (unless within melee distance) either.

3)Then have extended range on the the range attacks inorder to compensation for distance mobs.. It's called balance.

4)No they don't.. several people can be using the same space in different ways.. It's a 3D engine... never been a part of a raid?

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Dude, you NEED to go play DCO.. they have runners and flyers all playing with each other in the same space, and guess what? It all works just fine.
 

Zombra

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Essentially Fly in an RPG, like most superpowers, is Easy mode.
Eh. Champions Online built their flying model fine, and the zones had nice high ceilings. Yes, you could often escape when you wanted, but that's true with all super movement. Catching guys in PvP was hard in the big arenas, but there's a big difference between being able to run away and winning the match.
 

Telengard

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There is no Up in RPGs.

Oh.. this is a unique type of crazy.

What you ACTUALLY means is there is RARELY an 'up' in RPG's... but that as zip to do with RPG's and everything to do with devs not creating a z-axis for their engines.
1) Once they implement the z-axis, then the devs must fill the new spaces that the player can now enter, otherwise everyone complains about there being nothing there. Plus that it looks awful. So, triple dev time and costs to cover three distinct visual areas for each space in the game.
2) Once you can fly high in the sky, melee combatants can never hit you. Ever.
3) Ranged ground combatants can only hit you if you choose to fly close enough for them to shoot you. And you can abandon combat with them at any time, because you can fly away into open space, where they can't follow.
4) If one member of the party is flying and nobody else is, then the dev has to build two separate areas for just the flyer to see and interact with, while the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs. Putting bunches of time and resources into an aspect of the game that will only be underutilized and half-baked, all so people can say - oh cool, look, I can fly; now I have to go land so I can play another portion of the game with the rest of the party. Repeat

Essentially Fly in an RPG, like most superpowers, is Easy mode. It defeats any opponent that can't also fly, it always you to safely retreat any time you want. And it instantly divorces you from the regular game content. And it does so by demanding a huge devotion of resources on the dev's part. So, lots of time and money spent on something to break the game. Yay.

Which is why the Marvel and FF games give you the power to Hover and call it Fly.

1) Yes, that's the way things usually go. A dev designs a space and then they fill it with content.

2)That's why ranged attacks exists.... flying characters can't hit melees (unless within melee distance) either.

3)Then have extended range on the the range attacks inorder to compensation for distance mobs.. It's called balance.

4)No they don't.. several people can be using the same space in different ways.. It's a 3D engine... never been a part of a raid?

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Dude, you NEED to go play DCO.. they have runners and flyers all playing with each other in the same space, and guess what? It all works just fine.
Played it. But action games and mmropg love superheroes. There's an abundance of them. There is no loss to utilize superheroes there. Because it's all action based. It's actual crpgs where there's a lack of superheros.

Essentially Fly in an RPG, like most superpowers, is Easy mode.
Eh. Champions Online built their flying model fine, and the zones had nice high ceilings. Yes, you could often escape when you wanted, but that's true with all super movement. Catching guys in PvP was hard in the big arenas, but there's a big difference between being able to run away and winning the match.
Once you go mmorpg or open world action, large spaces fit. It works. Because the abilities of the superhero are constrained not by the superhero, but by the player's ability to utilize those powers. However, stick that power into a traditional crpg, where the character utilizes his powers and you just direct him, and suddenly there is nothing constraining his powers. So, turn begins. You fly away. Combat ends.
 

SarcasticUndertones

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Played it. But action games and mmropg love superheroes. There's an abundance of them. There is no loss to utilize superheroes there. Because it's all action based. It's actual crpgs where there's a lack of superheros.

Dude, what do you think an mmorpg is?

It's an RPG that's playable online... it might have shite, laughable mechanics most of the time but if they were replaced by say, D&D mechanics then how is it not just an online rpg?

I certainly will agree that there is a sad lack in that department, but ability to actually make them has nothing to do with that. (it's mostly just revenue that's the issue.)
 

Telengard

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To put this in context of an actual game. Let's take everybody favorite: Batman. So, a Batman RPG, with his superpower of unlimited wealth.

  • Okay, Batman walks into the first store in the game and buys 99 of everything, because he CAN.
  • Then he walks out into the street with his 99 everythings and fights 5 mooks. You click on whirlwind batarang attack, and knock all five unconscious instantly. Cool in the comics, cool in action games (where you're doing the work), boring RPG.
  • Then you get in a fight with a henchman, drink one of your 99 red bulls to get hyped up, and pound him into the earth in 2 suped-up rounds.
  • Once he's gone, you go back to the store and buy another red bull, so your total is back to 99, because he CAN.
Repeat until meet villain.
 

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