Will PoE be shit?

[SniperHF]

Poll needs Shit combat but everything else pretty solid option.

 

[Turrul]

Poll needs Shit combat but everything else pretty solid option.

This. I doubt Storyfags like me care about all this combat talk that much.

 

[Roguey]

Merging skills? That always made sequels better!

As long as no actual features are removed, it does. Oblivion actually did remove features though (e.g. spears because they don't want to spend money on spear animations).

New Vegas removed the big guns skill and it was right to do so. Number of people I remember seeing complaining about it: zero.

armchair fanwank

Saying "it just needs balance" doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Balancing skills, subsystems, systems as a whole takes a long time and a lot of effort.

Take Guns and Energy Weapons in F:NV. For this example, assume I am of average intelligence and average "talent" for someone who has been designing video games for twelve years. These two skills essentially do the same thing with two different types of weapons -- much in the same way that the same skills in Fallout 3, Fallout 2, and Fallout did. All that changed were some of the formulae (for both) and the weapon content each skill accesses.

Despite the narrow focus and similarity of these skills, just balancing the content of what's affected by these two skills took me 2 or 3 patches to get *mostly right*. Even now, there's still a fair amount of contention about that in the community.

Now compare Guns and EWs to Explosives. Now compare them to Explosives, Melee Weapons, and Unarmed. Now compare them to ALL the skills in Fallout -- what the skills affect directly, what they affect indirectly. The more things we allow skills to branch out and touch, the more difficult balancing those skills becomes.

I argue that coming up with ideas is relatively easy. Seeing an idea through to the point of being well-executed is much more difficult and time-consuming. The more edge cases and subsystems you design into a system, the more difficult that execution becomes.

 

[cherry blossom]

Or do you guys think JA2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Marksmanship skill?

The question still stands.

JA2 has skills

It is sad when people resort to citing games they don't know anything about just to have a voice in discussion.

I think JA2 is not a RPG and character progression/building isn't the main focus of the game. It has RPG-ish elements, but they're not the focus of the game. What works for JA2's skill system is not necessarily what I want to see in a RPG.

A lament for the irony of excluding from genre the one game that does the game mechanics better than all others.

Luck you for the genre has declined so much, you couldn't see what worked for JA2 even if you searched for it!

 

[Johannes]

JA2 has skills

So? All guns use Marksmanship for accuracy regardless.

 

[Mortmal]

Merging skills? That always made sequels better!

As long as no actual features are removed, it does. Oblivion actually did remove features though (e.g. spears because they don't want to spend money on spear animations).

New Vegas removed the big guns skill and it was right to do so. Number of people I remember seeing complaining about it: zero.

armchair fanwank

Saying "it just needs balance" doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Balancing skills, subsystems, systems as a whole takes a long time and a lot of effort.

Take Guns and Energy Weapons in F:NV. For this example, assume I am of average intelligence and average "talent" for someone who has been designing video games for twelve years. These two skills essentially do the same thing with two different types of weapons -- much in the same way that the same skills in Fallout 3, Fallout 2, and Fallout did. All that changed were some of the formulae (for both) and the weapon content each skill accesses.

Despite the narrow focus and similarity of these skills, just balancing the content of what's affected by these two skills took me 2 or 3 patches to get *mostly right*. Even now, there's still a fair amount of contention about that in the community.

Now compare Guns and EWs to Explosives. Now compare them to Explosives, Melee Weapons, and Unarmed. Now compare them to ALL the skills in Fallout -- what the skills affect directly, what they affect indirectly. The more things we allow skills to branch out and touch, the more difficult balancing those skills becomes.

I argue that coming up with ideas is relatively easy. Seeing an idea through to the point of being well-executed is much more difficult and time-consuming. The more edge cases and subsystems you design into a system, the more difficult that execution becomes.

None complained about the big guns skil lin new vegas , because the sum of good things in vegas outweight the bad and people were too busy to enjoy it . Whille apprently POE is a sum of flaws and its so bad it kicks you right in the face.Not played it yet but if i listen to most other guys here, shit not "most" ALL of them on shoutbox , i fear that while i was waiting for a baldur' s gate spiritual sequel , i was scammed .

 

[cherry blossom]

JA2 has skills

So? All guns use Marksmanship for accuracy regardless.

So do melee weapons and grenades. And all actions also use Agility and Dexterity. OMG THEY MERGED EVERYTHING?!

You have the wrong mindset to try and frame the nuances of JA2 properly. Like most good games, JA2 doesn't bottleneck its subsystems into a list of isolated parameters and call them skills as in most games. What matters is the mechanical interactivity and how it reflects on the game, which JA2 has a reputation for doing exceptionally well. This isn't your typical shopping-list-stats RPG.

"Marksmanship" could be called something like "Perception" without a change in mechanics and you wouldn't be making this invalid argument now.

 

[Johannes]

JA2 has skills

So? All guns use Marksmanship for accuracy regardless.

So do melee weapons and grenades. And all actions also use Agility and Dexterity. OMG THEY MERGED EVERYTHING?!

You have the wrong mindset to try and frame the nuances of JA2 properly. Like most good games, JA2 doesn't bottleneck its subsystems into a list of isolated parameters and call them skills as in most games. What matters is the mechanical interactivity and how it reflects on the game, which JA2 has a reputation for doing exceptionally well. This isn't your typical shopping-list-stats RPG.

"Marksmanship" could be called something like "Perception" without a change in mechanics and you wouldn't be making this invalid argument now.

What the hell are you even trying to argue? And what is the invalid argument you think I'm making?

You basically recite what I originally pointed out, then conclude I'm wrong.

 

[cherry blossom]

That your expression (about JA2) is incorrect. That I had to type this out for you at all...

 

[Johannes]

So you're just sperging out over what is called Attribute and what is called Skill in JA2? Ok, gotcha.

The weapon-specific skills are inconsequential here since you never train those or acquire new ones.

 

[Norfleet]

So? All guns use Marksmanship for accuracy regardless.

That's really how it is in real life, too. Someone who is a good shot is a good shot, period. My kid learned to shoot on an AK, has no difficulty translating that marksmanship rating to another gun. Sure, there's an element of acclimation to a specific weapon and its quirks, but that goes beyond even a specific type of gun and goes towards that one, specific gun. Even the language reflects this: A person is a "good shot". They have the specific skillset which makes them good at hitting things at a distance, and it's not critically important what that weapon is. Although a new, unfamiliar weapon will require a bit of testing to adapt to its parameters, the skillset translates.

And yes, PoE will be shit. Omnia Merdae Sunt.

 

[RK47]

meh.

 

[Jaesun]

I still do not know what to think of this (and have not voted). the game is fucking BEAUTIFUL, but they have to fucking nail that combat. Period, or this will be a disaster.

 

[Ninjerk]

So? All guns use Marksmanship for accuracy regardless.

That's really how it is in real life, too. Someone who is a good shot is a good shot, period. My kid learned to shoot on an AK, has no difficulty translating that marksmanship rating to another gun. Sure, there's an element of acclimation to a specific weapon and its quirks, but that goes beyond even a specific type of gun and goes towards that one, specific gun. Even the language reflects this: A person is a "good shot". They have the specific skillset which makes them good at hitting things at a distance, and it's not critically important what that weapon is. Although a new, unfamiliar weapon will require a bit of testing to adapt to its parameters, the skillset translates.

And yes, PoE will be shit. Omnia Merdae Sunt.

I'd mostly agree (I feel like pistols are somewhat of an exception).

 

[Bester]

I still do not know what to think of this (and have not voted). the game is fucking BEAUTIFUL, but they have to fucking nail that combat. Period, or this will be a disaster.

Yeah, it's beautiful, and at the same time you can't help but notice gigantic 3d modeling fuck ups.

Like, that Vithrack race. They promised it was going to be weird as fuck, mysterious, disgusting, etc. Instead, we have stupid cockroach-men. What the fuck?
The whole idea was to get an illithid-type race with mental abilities, but insectoid. Fine, insectoids can be all that, look:

Just look at that awesome insectoid head ^. Give it an insectoid body and you've got yourself a race so fucking awesome, illithids with their face tentacles and brain sucking would have nothing on it.
And now look at what obsidians came up with:

Where is weirdness, where are disgusting features, where is anything? Oh, is this supposed to be disgusting because it's the color of shit?
I'm a man with a severe insectophobia and I wouldn't be scared even if I met this shit covered faggot in real life. Where are disgusting insect hairs, where is a perfectly round spider mouth with teeth and a disgusting tongue/sting/whatever sticking out of it, and what's WITH THE NOSE? It looks more like Santa Claus with a beard and a red nose, just covered in something brown.
This model couldn't look more childish ever.

Now, look at this:

Look on the right. The concept art is awesome. Apart from the buildings, it also shows the kind of things you'd find around the houses to set the atmosphere.
Now look on the left...
1) Where are piles of logs they chopped to heat the house?
2) Where are cooking bonfires on which they COOK FOOD?
3) Where are drying clothes?
Nowhere. They're replaced with generic barrels and tons of garbage.

What was supposed to be an inhabitable house of wild barbarians or druids who live rather primitively, who are in touch with the nature, turned into deserted/dirty barracks of some unwashed assholes.

A totally different feel.

And yet the graphics are beautiful. This messes with my head so much.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah, graphics are the most important thing in a cRPG.

 

[GarfunkeL]

I honestly don't understand what he's complaining about.

 

[Norfleet]

I'd mostly agree (I feel like pistols are somewhat of an exception).

Pistols aren't really an exception, it's just that their values diverge significantly from that of longer guns, and therefore, are harder to acclimate to and from. The core skillset remains the same: You point and fire at a target, compensating for the effects of travel time, wind, gravity, and air resistance. The values may differ, but the skill is the same. Change too many of these values on someone at the same time, and they'll have to rework their internal habits for them, but the basic skill is still there.

One could potentially model such a thing in a game by having linked skills, where boosting one skill will indirectly affect the other skills even when you put no points into them. This happens in real life also: Very few skills exist in a vacuum, simply learning something tangentially related grants you increased perspective on those skills. Learning to make things often teaches you how to unmake them, and vice versa.

 

[Metal Hurlant]

I still do not know what to think of this (and have not voted). the game is fucking BEAUTIFUL, but they have to fucking nail that combat. Period, or this will be a disaster.

Good to see you keeping the faith. And going by the poll, it looks like the Codex is split 50/50. About half think this will be an ok/good/great game.

You're right in they do have to nail the combat, otherwise it's going to be a tedious chore to get through it all imo. Especially the 15 level mega-dungeon.

 

[Bubbles]

Or do you guys think JA2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Marksmanship skill?

Do you think Fallout 2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Energy Weapons skill?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yeah, graphics are the most important thing in a cRPG.

It's more about design than graphics. Yes, it looks beautiful, they have the technical ability, but they severely lack imagination. All the races they made up in this game are UGLY and boring as fuck.
Or they simply refuse to use their imagination because hey, wasn't it Feargus or Sawyer who said that you have to give people things they're familiar with? In other words, don't expect Obsidian to ever make anything truly original.

The more things we allow skills to branch out and touch, the more difficult balancing those skills becomes.

The simpler the game the easier it is to balance it. Wow, genius.
I'm not sure where it is written that balance is more important or desirable than a complex game, but I'm sure armchair genius Sawyer can write it down and it will become truth.

 

[Johannes]

Or do you guys think JA2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Marksmanship skill?

Do you think Fallout 2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Energy Weapons skill?

Are you really that daft? Every time you fire any weapon in JA2, your Marksmanship skill is checked. Most weapons in Fallout don't use Energy Weapons skill for anything at all. That there's a good bunch of other modifiers in both games affecting your overall skill with a weapon, in both games, shouldn't really need to be spelled out cause it's obvious.

 

[Norfleet]

Do you think Fallout 2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Energy Weapons skill?

You confusing things with Fallout 1, man. Turbo Plasma is no longer the shit in FO2, it's all about Railgun to the Eyes.

The real question is why there even is an "Energy Weapons" skill as distinct from any other shooting skill. If anything, energy weapons are the same skillset as shooting any other ranged weapon, only with ALL OF THE DIFFICULTY-INCREASING FACTORS REMOVED. Bullet-drop and wind factors become nonexistent. Delivery time is instantaneous. So, it's basically just a gun where you don't have to worry about any of the things that make actual guns harder to use. Sure, there might be differences in how the weapon is cared for and maintained, but none of this appears in the act of firing the weapon at someone. Firing a lazor cannon is just like firing every other gun, only without any of the things that make a gun harder: No compensating for gravity, wind, or travel time, no recoil, just pure point and shoot.

 

[Bester]

Do you think Fallout 2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Energy Weapons skill?

You confusing things with Fallout 1, man. Turbo Plasma is no longer the shit in FO2, it's all about Railgun to the Eyes.

The real question is why there even is an "Energy Weapons" skill as distinct from any other shooting skill. If anything, energy weapons are the same skillset as shooting any other ranged weapon, only with ALL OF THE DIFFICULTY-INCREASING FACTORS REMOVED. Bullet-drop and wind factors become nonexistent. Delivery time is instantaneous. So, it's basically just a gun where you don't have to worry about any of the things that make actual guns harder to use. Sure, there might be differences in how the weapon is cared for and maintained, but none of this appears in the act of firing the weapon at someone. Firing a lazor cannon is just like firing every other gun, only without any of the things that make a gun harder: No compensating for gravity, wind, or travel time, no recoil, just pure point and shoot.

You could argue that firing a laser based weapon would require you to keep aiming at the exactly same spot on your target for a relatively long period of time (like a couple of seconds).

 

[Norfleet]

You could argue that firing a laser based weapon would require you to keep aiming at the exactly same spot on your target for a relatively long period of time (like a couple of seconds).

You could, if the weapon exhibited that behavior in the game, but it does not, both visibly and in the lore descriptions, which treat them as being regular guns that fire pew instead of blam. It is a gun, firing a discrete blast rather than a continuous weapon that you have to hold on the target to cause damage to it. Frankly, any weapon that worked as you describe would basically be unusable as a weapon.