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Will PoE be shit?

Will PoE be shit?


  • Total voters
    451

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,660
You sure do like to refuse playing good games that weren't made by JES because doing so would burst your bubble.
After getting mad at me because of my SS2 and KotC assessments what makes you think I have a bubble to burst? :hmmm:
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
674
D:OS is average. Not vert, very good. It's dumbed down shit. L0L RPS L0L
The dumbing down isn't that much of a problem when the combat engine is good and you've got some solid encounters. Good character creation (or balance/RPG systems/what ever the fuck JES designs) wont help you if you haven't got good gameplay and good gameplay won't help you if you don't have any good encounters to go with it.
You can also disable the RPS shit, though the dialogue reactivity is nonetheless quite weak.
I consider the gameplay in most RPGs to be the conversations.
349fi1f.jpg

Everything else usually gets real repetitive real quick. It's the upside to action RPGs, that at least they engage the twitch centers of your brain indefinitely.
:kingcomrade:

Sounds about JES Roguey

So you're saying you DID like IE combat?

Arcanum's shittacular combat is an example of exactly why the gameplay in an RPG is the conversations. The FITE bits are agonizing and get in the way of the good part of the product.
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
So you're saying you DID like IE combat?

Arcanum's shittacular combat is an example of exactly why the gameplay in an RPG is the conversations. The FITE bits are agonizing and get in the way of the good part of the product.
I did like some of it, Icewind dale/Baldur's Gate 2. Was it the best combat ever? No.

Last part is :retarded: The problem in Arcanum wasn't the fact that it had combat, it's that the combat system was utter shit. That's like saying that the way to fix a point&click adventure that has a lot of typos in its dialogue is by removing all the story and dialogue all together.
After getting mad at me because of my SS2 and KotC assessments what makes you think I have a bubble to burst?
You flat out refused to play many games in that other thread and after that continued to go on and on about how "there isn't a single good game that was a commercial failure", how "high sales numbers correlate with the quality of a game"(*) and now how "TB isn't superior". Look up the word "cock goblin" from a dictionary and you'll just see a picture of you, holding your Josh Sawyer dakimakura in a subway with a vacant stare in your eyes.

But yes, you are in fact right. There's no bubble to be burst here since you don't think like a normal person who likes to play video games. What most of us consider a good game, you consider a travesty because of problematic portrayal of ethnic minorities. You think that post IE RTwP RPGs have good gameplay and that Alpha Protocol and New Vegas had good gunplay. There's no point in making you play a turn based game because you would just whine how battles are too hard or how pawn and queen all builds aren't equal.
I used to think that Irenaeus got it right when he said that you should just gtfo back to your Super Mario forums since you hate RPGs so much (while World of Goo is apparently a God tier design master piece), but I'm starting to doubt even that call since it seems like your inability to judge gameplay isn't just limited to RPGs. You couldn't tell good gameplay if it bit you in the ass in any genre. You'd probably just spam Phil Fish quotes all day in a platformer forum and call every one who likes those old Japanese platformers a grognard for preferring games which were clearly way too unforgiving and challenging. Hmm, where else could you go? RPGs clearly aren't your forte, you've already demonstrated that you don't know shit about FPS games, you would never have the skill to play shoot em ups, while fighting games aim for balance, the community would be too male dominated, competitive and anti-SJW for you. What's left? Strategy games, AAA games, adventure games and pretentious indy garbage. Strategy games are out since they share a strong overlap with CRPGs and are turn based. While adventure games have a high percentage of female fans, they don't have any mechanics to butcher apart from just removing puzzles all together. So I guess you could either try the Heavy Rain, GTA 5 or Gears of War forums or return to your kin to some forums where Zoe Quinn, Extra Credits and Errant Signal raise awareness of game industry's inherent misogyny and intellectually masturbate by coming up with pretentious new design terms that no one else uses.

(*)New Vegas indeed made more money and is therefore better than System Shock 2 and VTMB. Just like how Final Fantasy 7&X and Skyrim are all far greater RPGs than any game JES has ever made. Just look at any top 100 games of all time list. FF7 and Ocarina of Time, eternal top 5 spots, the two RPG giants that JES can never even hope to beat. So even in his own terms (that is appealing to unwashed masses) he'll always be a second tier developer at best, though he can't even truly achieve that since to you need Japanese sales numbers to reach that level of financial success and global recognition, which he will never have in Obsidian. He will never be the globally beloved people's champion nor the indy darling of actual genre enthusiasts, but if he can keep his job, he'll continue to make games with pretty big budgets with quite good sales, as long as he sticks to his winning formula (that is to make more games like New Vegas, which have both mainstream and RPG codex success). He's supposed to go on to make even bigger AAA games with even higher numbers of people playing them on Steam after making an AAA game like New Vegas. And what is he stuck doing instead? Some mid tier kickstarter title for a niche grognard audience! And he's still loosing! Original Sin had better gameplay and got mainstream recognition and dominated Steam sales for weeks. Numenera will have better story and atmosphere and it still remains to be seen whether or not PoE can beat (or atleast be equal to) Wasteland 2. First Sawyer couldn't make the biggest, dumbest blockbuster RPG and now he can't make the best niche grognard RPG? What an utterly mediocre man he is. That's his entire resumé. Neither polished games with great gameplay nor flawed cult classics with high originality (Troika games). What else can you expect from a guy with his design philosophy and personality of a (very smug) piece of toast? He's got his Obsidian writer buddies to thank for acting as his life preserver.
 

imweasel

Guest
Look up the word "cock goblin" from a dictionary and you'll just see a picture of you, holding your Josh Sawyer dakimakura in a subway with a vacant stare in your eyes.
I have to say, "Sawyer's cock goblin" would be a great tag for Roguey.
 
Unwanted

a Goat

Unwanted
Dumbfuck Edgy Vatnik
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
6,941
Location
Albania
I foresee a great rift in the Codex in the coming months: turn-based versus real-time-with-pause.
People were at it for years.

RTwP is essentially turn-based but the purpose of it is to have some fluidity. It usually ends up in pause-fest though so it's more like Combat Mission series turn-based combat but with turns being 2-6 seconds long(in CM they've lasted for minute and new orders arrived after 15 seconds as far as I remember). So in theory it should be okay for people who like turns. However the execution ends up being extremely tiring for the player.

At the same time the system achieves only one, secondary goal. It allows for cheesing through some shitty encounters with 2 goblins by letting your warriors/rangers kill them automatically without pausing. It doesn't achieve fluidity, it's tiring and tedious.

The only flaw turn-based systems have is their level of abstraction. Which can make it much worse than RTwP for some people.

It goes up to taste but imo. RTwP was flawed from the start and will be always flawed so why bother with it?
I would have to concur and say that both Turn-based and RTwP actually have the same amount of potential. Turn-based systems have the problem that all turn-based games have - their flow is fairly unrealistic. In real life (and thus real-time systems) everything happens simultaneously. You have organic, fluid combat. In a turn based system, a character with the highest initiative can use a potion of speed, run to your mage and hit him in the face. This unrealistic amount of action could be stopped in the real time system by ordering your archer guy to turn the enemy into a walking needle pillow before he opens his mouth.

Basically what I'm trying to illustrate here are that real-time systems are more realistic. And in fact, if done well they allow almost as much tactical gameplay as turn-based ones. I'd even have to add, that non-tiled turn-based systems (e.g. D:OS) are the worst, because a lot of tactical elements can only be implemented in a grid (then again, this is one of the flaws of RTwP systems... hence my argument that they are both equally good.)

(It is really weird to be contrarian while taking the middle ground...)

And here is my say about PoE: I never really got into the 'deep' discussion you guys are having over here and am looking at the game from probably the most arbitary viewpoint possible... and so far I think it's going to be above average. I might be missing something though, because of my aforementioned distancing from the discussion (doesn't mean I didn't read it, I just don't like taking sides for now)

As I said - turn based introduces level of abstraction which is basically something you're calling lack of realism. A lot of good games are pretty abstract - Quake 3, hailed for its gameplay for years is completely unreal(pun not intended) and nobody cares.

The point is - Realistic =/= good. It doesn't means that realism is bad though.

RTwP problem is micromanagement, which is unbearable in PoE and was only a little less of a chore in older IW games. In TB each turn equals set amount of seconds which lowers amount of bullshit you have to deal with. In RTwP, after you're entering huge fights, actions your characters are making aren't always synchronised which means you have to pause between irregular time periods.
Your mage casts spell while fighters are still far from enemy, you have to give him something to do, second passes and your fighter has to intercept enemy #1 who tries to get to your squishes, next 2 second passes and enemy #1 is half dead but you need your mage to cast spell because something happened and so on and so on.
In PoE you have to micro-manage skills/spells of all your characters. Your fighters aren't going to just go back and forth and attack your enemies.

There is a really good reason why majority of recently released or developed RPG's both "oldschool" and "casual" stay away from merging "party based" and "RTwP" in one game or at least they're trying to automate the whole process - this is really player-tasking system and almost everybody who loved some games using it, remembers non-combat moments rather than what was in-between them.

As for grid - tabletop wargames usually stay away from it, so do few very good computer games(Combat Mission is the most obvious example), if anything grid is easier to pull off and create reasonable ruleset for, but it isn't necessary. Also - squares>hexes.
 
Unwanted

a Goat

Unwanted
Dumbfuck Edgy Vatnik
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
6,941
Location
Albania
Sound the alarm, someone said squares>hexes
They're geometrically superior.
Here's effect of 24 hours mathematical evaluation process and 48 hours of hard work in paint.
gs3hwA6.jpg

:troll:

I'll admit though - hex grid looks prettier.
 

Spaceman

Literate
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
5
And no one gave a shit. Do chess players worry that their "knight" and "rooks" pieces aren't doing realistic things? turn based games tend to allow for more interesting gameplay than your classic button masher or pause spamming system. And that is all that matters, because these are games, not interactive movies. If realism is what makes you argue in favor of a system, go play Go Home and choke on lesbian strap-ons.
Well I give a shit. Immersion is important. Having a real time RPG doesn't make it an interactive movie, it's just a different kind of RPG. And Gone Home, or Mass Effect, or whatever other "interactive movie" you might give as an example are bad because of many other reasons other than that they are real-time. And it is definitely arguable what constitutes interesting gameplay, these things are subjective.

No need to be infantile in your response.


Realism isn't something intrinsic good and can't be used in favor of a system. If the objective of your game is to be as realistic as possible, okay, realism is important but outside simulator games, all the other games have different levels of abstraction on them. You won't criticize a platformer because the character jumps unrealistic heights, every gamer knows (exception of autistic retards) that videogames work on their own bubble realities and different genres, different games, have different expectations about realism.

Well I could clarify by saying RTwP allows more room for realism, it doesn't make any RTwP game better, just that it might be better in one aspect if made by a good developer.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
4,567
Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
I don't know about PoE but I fear what might be turning into shit is the Codex, based on what I learned from reading the Roguey vs Grognards and the PoE beta thread:

1. Baldur's Gate 2 had an amazing combat system that was super fun to play (horrible real-time clusterfuck you say? Not on Bizarro Codex, nooo sir)
2. D&D is a great and complex system, allowing for myriads of interesting choices at character creation and level up, even for melee characters!
3. Apparently it makes you a really bad person now if you say that apart from good gameplay true RPGs need branching storylines, C&C and world reactivity and that archaic dungeoncrawlers were lacking in this regard (wait you're saying this statement would have been perfectly in line with Codex general opinion just a few years ago? Who cares, burn the heretic!)
4. Designers should not follow their own vision, but cater to the whims and fancies of their "fanbase" (Welcome to Bioware Social Network!)
5. It is absolutely forbidden for designers to not like or openly criticize (the outrage!) their fanbase's favorite game, even if said game has tons of flaws that could and should be rightfully pointed out


:prosper:
 

Spaceman

Literate
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
5
As I said - turn based introduces level of abstraction which is basically something you're calling lack of realism. A lot of good games are pretty abstract - Quake 3, hailed for its gameplay for years is completely unreal(pun not intended) and nobody cares.

The point is - Realistic =/= good. It doesn't means that realism is bad though.

RTwP problem is micromanagement, which is unbearable in PoE and was only a little less of a chore in older IW games. In TB each turn equals set amount of seconds which lowers amount of bullshit you have to deal with. In RTwP, after you're entering huge fights, actions your characters are making aren't always synchronised which means you have to pause between irregular time periods.
Your mage casts spell while fighters are still far from enemy, you have to give him something to do, second passes and your fighter has to intercept enemy #1 who tries to get to your squishes, next 2 second passes and enemy #1 is half dead but you need your mage to cast spell because something happened and so on and so on.
In PoE you have to micro-manage skills/spells of all your characters. Your fighters aren't going to just go back and forth and attack your enemies.

There is a really good reason why majority of recently released or developed RPG's both "oldschool" and "casual" stay away from merging "party based" and "RTwP" in one game or at least they're trying to automate the whole process - this is really player-tasking system and almost everybody who loved some games using it, remembers non-combat moments rather than what was in-between them.

As for grid - tabletop wargames usually stay away from it, so do few very good computer games(Combat Mission is the most obvious example), if anything grid is easier to pull off and create reasonable ruleset for, but it isn't necessary. Also - squares>hexes.

Hm, you do have a point. You can't have all your eggs in one basket, of course. I guess it all boils down how much micro can you do before it gets irritating.
 

Volrath

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
4,297
I don't know about PoE but I fear what might be turning into shit is the Codex, based on what I learned from reading the Roguey vs Grognards and the PoE beta thread:

1. Baldur's Gate 2 had an amazing combat system that was super fun to play (horrible real-time clusterfuck you say? Not on Bizarro Codex, nooo sir)
2. D&D is a great and complex system, allowing for myriads of interesting choices at character creation and level up, even for melee characters!
3. Apparently it makes you a really bad person now if you say that apart from good gameplay true RPGs need branching storylines, C&C and world reactivity and that archaic dungeoncrawlers were lacking in this regard (wait you're saying this statement would have been perfectly in line with Codex general opinion just a few years ago? Who cares, burn the heretic!)
4. Designers should not follow their own vision, but cater to the whims and fancies of their "fanbase" (Welcome to Bioware Social Network!)
5. It is absolutely forbidden for designers to not like or openly criticize (the outrage!) their fanbase's favorite game, even if said game has tons of flaws that could and should be rightfully pointed out


:prosper:
Yeah but... SAWYER!!!!
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12,196
For the record, I thought he did great on New Vegas. What can we criticize about what he did on New Vegas? Don't say first-person real-time.
 

imweasel

Guest
I don't know about PoE but I fear what might be turning into shit is the Codex, based on what I learned from reading the Roguey vs Grognards and the PoE beta thread:

1. Baldur's Gate 2 had an amazing combat system that was super fun to play (horrible real-time clusterfuck you say? Not on Bizarro Codex, nooo sir)
2. D&D is a great and complex system, allowing for myriads of interesting choices at character creation and level up, even for melee characters!
3. Apparently it makes you a really bad person now if you say that apart from good gameplay true RPGs need branching storylines, C&C and world reactivity and that archaic dungeoncrawlers were lacking in this regard (wait you're saying this statement would have been perfectly in line with Codex general opinion just a few years ago? Who cares, burn the heretic!)
4. Designers should not follow their own vision, but cater to the whims and fancies of their "fanbase" (Welcome to Bioware Social Network!)
5. It is absolutely forbidden for designers to not like or openly criticize (the outrage!) their fanbase's favorite game, even if said game has tons of flaws that could and should be rightfully pointed out


:prosper:
Hi there, Josh.

Your game sucks, unlike the amazing Baldur's Gate series. Whining about that won't change a damn thing either. Now go fuck yourself. :D

Later.
 

Ziem

Arbiter
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
324
I don't know about PoE but I fear what might be turning into shit is the Codex, based on what I learned from reading the Roguey vs Grognards and the PoE beta thread:

1. Baldur's Gate 2 had an amazing combat system that was super fun to play (horrible real-time clusterfuck you say? Not on Bizarro Codex, nooo sir)
2. D&D is a great and complex system, allowing for myriads of interesting choices at character creation and level up, even for melee characters!
3. Apparently it makes you a really bad person now if you say that apart from good gameplay true RPGs need branching storylines, C&C and world reactivity and that archaic dungeoncrawlers were lacking in this regard (wait you're saying this statement would have been perfectly in line with Codex general opinion just a few years ago? Who cares, burn the heretic!)
4. Designers should not follow their own vision, but cater to the whims and fancies of their "fanbase" (Welcome to Bioware Social Network!)
5. It is absolutely forbidden for designers to not like or openly criticize (the outrage!) their fanbase's favorite game, even if said game has tons of flaws that could and should be rightfully pointed out


:prosper:
1, 2. Bg2 didn't have the perfect combat system and dnd has its flaws too, but somehow PE manages to be even worse, the combat is even more of a clusterfuck and the complexity is basically nonexistant compared to dnd.

3. This is supposedly an rpg focused on combat so while the story etc are important making good gameplay should be a priority. It's not like we can even say anything about the story since beta is spoiler free, we can only criticize the gameplay.

4. It's a fcking kickstarter game, of course they should listen to the stupid fanbase because that stupid fanbase paid for the game.

5. It's not forbidden or anything, it's just hilarious. Why woulnd't people poke fun at JES especially on the internet?
Creating a spiritual successor to a game you hate.. :lol:
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
I don't know about PoE but I fear what might be turning into shit is the Codex, based on what I learned from reading the Roguey vs Grognards and the PoE beta thread:

1. Baldur's Gate 2 had an amazing combat system that was super fun to play (horrible real-time clusterfuck you say? Not on Bizarro Codex, nooo sir)

Compared to PoE's current state (which redefines the word clusterfuck), BG2 combat is amazing actually.

2. D&D is a great and complex system, allowing for myriads of interesting choices at character creation and level up, even for melee characters!

Meh, it's decent enough and works for the most part (especially if house ruled/modified). Sure there are better alternatives but the untested system Sawyer pulled out of his ass might not be one of them (shocking, I know).

3. Apparently it makes you a really bad person now if you say that apart from good gameplay true RPGs need branching storylines, C&C and world reactivity and that archaic dungeoncrawlers were lacking in this regard (wait you're saying this statement would have been perfectly in line with Codex general opinion just a few years ago? Who cares, burn the heretic!)

No, you're a really bad person (well a stupid one atleast) if you think Wizardry is not an RPG but Mass Effect is.

4. Designers should not follow their own vision, but cater to the whims and fancies of their "fanbase" (Welcome to Bioware Social Network!)

If said fanbase completely finances their game with all the benefits that such model entails (developers keeps IP rights for example, which is huge), you bet they should thoroughly examine what that fanbase wants and try to cater to their tastes.

Other than that, one can always launch a "Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience" kickstarter or pitch it to a publisher.

5. It is absolutely forbidden for designers to not like or openly criticize (the outrage!) their fanbase's favorite game, even if said game has tons of flaws that could and should be rightfully pointed out

The lead designer/project director of a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate series (it obviously won't be an ultra linear dungeon crawler like IWD or a philosophical storyfag game set in a weird setting a la PST) is a man who loathes said series, of course some people will have an issue with that. Most backers love BG2 (it is clear to anyone with a brain that PoE kickstarter pitch was mostly directed at the BG crowd) while Josh sees many of its widely considered strongest points (mage duels and Athkatla for example) as terrible flaws.
 

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