Wizards of the Coast, D&D and Magic: The Gathering - are they failing?

[Grunker]

hearthstone style app?

Magic: the Gathering Online is the most horrid piece of software you'll ever deal with on a steady basis. It works, and it no longer crashes all that often, but beyond that it's really, really bad. On top of that, it's expensive as fuck.

The reason you still use it is that MTG beats the everliving crap out of any other trading card game. And, because they know their client is shit, customer support is some of the best in the biz. There's 24-hour live chat support and you get your money back within 24 hours if you join and event and something goes wrong.

 

[Coma White]

Fuck magic seems like fun. How is the hearthstone style app?

Really your best bet for getting into Magic is playing with the physical cards. Try and weasel some friends into buying some product and play some games over some beers, etc. Magic Online is NOTHING like Hearthstone and is very much geared towards hardcore Spikes with money to burn. It's really more of a tool for improving your overall game.

 

[Jaedar]

Fuck magic seems like fun. How is the hearthstone style app?

If you just want to start and don't know anything, play a few hours of Magic Duels (its free). Then, find some friends or a prerelease event and start playing paper magic.

Duels is actually not terrible, but it lacks limited, which is imo the best part of magic. It's a good (and free!) way to learn the game. I assume this is what you mean by hearthstone style app.

MTGO is crap, and only for people who really like the game and have been playing for a while.

Yep, and if you actually played limited you'd be thankful for it. The trade-off in investments vs. counterplays is much more nuanced now than before where investing risky 7 or 8 mana into a spell would lead it to being Doom Bladed.

Admittedly I have not played much limited lately, and it was a while ago that doom blade was legal, buuuuuuuut
I disagree. The trick as always was to put pressure on your opponent so they'd use their removal *early* before you drop your mega creature. Or having enough mana and another card to protect (counterspell, indestructibility, etc).

The thing I mostly dislike about what I've played of EMT (granted not a lot), is that it has become rather bomb heavy. The removal is shit, but it generally doesn't matter, because creatures are pretty tiny too. Except the constructed fodder, which can be almost unkillable.

Removal nerfs are a blessing though. By far the worst thing with old and even Ravnica-era limited was opening a pack and going "well, guess I'm taking Premium Removal first once again, how intereeeeeeeeeesting"

As opposed to slamming the big creature? Imo, the first pick is rarely the most interesting. It's once the obvious good picks are gone that it gets good. That's the case regardless of if its removal or bomby creatures or what.

But I never played old Ravnica, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Coma White]

But I never played old Ravnica, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Jaedar]

But I never played old Ravnica, so maybe I'm wrong.

So... an aura (in a set with good removal will always be mediocre at best due to risk of 2 for 1), a (probably) worse pacifism and an admittedly slightly better lightning strike. You're doing a really bad job of convincing me the removal in this set was too strong friend. I'm also not sure it matters to the argument(?) at hand.

Also, I had another thought. I think the faster rotating standard will be better for the game, at least short term. My friends who were in to standard (and me, when I would try and watch tournaments) would fairly often complain that all the decks were the same for too long. The cost may become prohibitive in the long run though, and might scare away new players.

 

[Coma White]

So... an aura (in a set with good removal will always be mediocre at best due to risk of 2 for 1), a (probably) worse pacifism and an admittedly slightly better lightning strike. You're doing a really bad job of convincing me the removal in this set was too strong friend. I'm also not sure it matters to the argument(?) at hand.

As with all Limited formats, you have to judge the tools available in relation to the format in question. Because of the way the guilds worked, single-color removal was at an even higher premium than it otherwise would be.

Also, comparing Faith's Fetters to Pacifism is hilariously retarded. Faith's Fetters remains some of the best White removal ever printed, and is played in many full-power Cubes to this day.

EDIT: You're right in that it doesn't have much to do with the thread. But I feel Magic is often subject to subjective categorizing more than almost any other tabletop property I've experienced.

 

[Grunker]

I disagree. The trick as always was to put pressure on your opponent so they'd use their removal *early* before you drop your mega creature.

Sorry, Jaedar, but you're a noob. "The trick is is to put pressure on the opponent." Uh-huh. Not even highly aggressive decks can be sure to draw aggressive hands, and most limited decks are some sort of midrange in any case. Your "play in such and such a way" simply isn't indicative of the actual way games of Magic play out.

Nerfing removal has shortened games, broadened the variety of draft strategies possible, made unplayed card types playable, made the game more interactive and has created more interesting trade-offs.

worse pacifism.

OH HO HO HO nevermind citizen pass the street

Faith's Fetters was made uncommon in Eternal Masters... you know, the set where most card shifted down in rarity to reflect the higher power level of the set.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

I stopped playing when new-Rav came out (and before that I had stopped playing after Onslaught Block and came back at Innistrad), and the new cards feels something strange to me. It actually feels like Innistrad (new Innistrad lolol), having completely broken card by themselves (Grim Flayer). I'm not saying old cards had no broken cards: I had my fair share of playing them 'back in the days' and while playing Legacy tier 1. But still stuff like Grim Flayer (like Geist of S. T. in Innistrad) feel like cards just to powerful on their own for standard. Maybe it's just me.

Anyway I don't play standard (or even Legacy anymore), just Block Constructed. That's fun, but also mostly cheap and you have to be very creative. Also I get to replay old cards I used to play when I was younger (Incinerate in Visions ftw).

 

[Coma White]

I stopped playing when new-Rav came out (and before that I had stopped playing after Onslaught Block and came back at Innistrad), and the new cards feels something strange to me. It actually feels like Innistrad (new Innistrad lolol), having completely broken card by themselves (Grim Flayer). I'm not saying old cards had no broken cards: I had my fair share of playing them 'back in the days' and while playing Legacy tier 1. But still stuff like Grim Flayer (like Geist of S. T. in Innistrad) feel like cards just to powerful on their own for standard. Maybe it's just me.

Anyway I don't play standard (or even Legacy anymore), just Block Constructed. That's fun, but also mostly cheap and you have to be very creative. Also I get to replay old cards I used to play when I was younger (Incinerate in Visions ftw).

You'll note almost all the very powerful bombs you're thinking about are probably creatures. This is because, as part of New World Order, Wizards has made a concerted effort to make creatures more powerful. They feel Magic should be about creatures first because on the whole it makes for more interactive game states.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that historically, spells have really outclassed creatures in terms of overall impact on game state. When drafting, you'd generally pick efficient removal (and in the past, removal was very efficient more often than not) over even the strongest creatures.

 

[Jaedar]

Faith's Fetters was made uncommon in Eternal Masters... you know, the set where most card shifted down in rarity to reflect the higher power level of the set.

I do in fact not know, and I did say probably because I realize that the ability to target any permanent might sometimes be very good, especially in old magic(?). Pacifism still has the same effect on creatures, and for 2 mana less, which I think is quite a bit. :shrug:

Nerfing removal has shortened games, broadened the variety of draft strategies possible, made unplayed card types playable, made the game more interactive and has created more interesting trade-offs.

I'm not sure games becoming shorter because the person who drops the first bomb wins is a good thing? It certainly has made auras and combat tricks more viable though, that's for sure.

 

[Grunker]

because the person who drops the first bomb wins is a good thing

That's a pretty reductionist view. Firstly because their aren't many game ending bombs. Formats of the olden days were much more "princely." The last really, really princely set we had was Fate Reforged, which people did call a throwback.

Rather, what happens now is that playing more controlling decks which plans to trade resources in the early game to get out big threats is an OK path to winning games, since to get rid of a big thread your opponent either has to:

- save his 1, maybe 2, pieces of excellent removal
- spend a lot of mana or other resources on a source of 'meh' removal

So you in fact DON'T necessarily win by playing the first bomb, but when your opponent gets rid of your 6- or 7-drop, they are not automatically getting light-years ahead.

completely broken card

So now we have someone complaining that there is too much power creep and someone complaining there is too little on the same thread page.

In Danish we have a word: "forfaldsmyte." Directly translated it means "decline myth." It is used to describe the tendency of people to conclude at any given time that things were better before, and just cling on to any suitable explanation for it in the moment. Some things are obviously in decline (cRPGs for example). But one of the main reasons for the downfall of cRPGs is the total lack of mainstream interest and design interest. Meanwhile, Magic is still the same and more complexity is added every year. Basically, Magic is in the state cRPGs would be in if every year, interest in Fallout or Goldbox-like games just grew and the same designers just kept making the same games.

In that world, there would of course still be codexers harping about the decline of the cRPG. I wouldn't be one of them.

 

[Coma White]

In Danish we have a word: "forfaldsmyte." Directly translated it means "decline myth."

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

something something decline

I guess so. But like I said I'm not an old fart that saw decline over time. I'm ''brand new'' to the new sets. I checked the cards at random, and then I saw Grim Flayer and I thought that nothing would have been like this back in the day; name it nostalgia or just criticism, I still think it hold up. It's not like the card is ''very good when combined with something else but they failed to see it'', or that ''the card is better because of mechanics that will come up in next years'', or that ''the card is broken and Magic are atrocious at even thinking about it (skullclamp lolol)''. It's just that the card is too powerful for its cost IMO. And checking the winning decks of some websites (SCG etc.) with that card being almost everywhere (except for some winning ramp deck, which is cool), I think my criticism is not unfair. I haven't had the time to check on everything so I can't speak for all the new cards.

Also I don't think it's that much of a decline in terms of general mechanics. I've seen really freakin' cool cards. And I even bought myself a Madness deck since I loved that old mechanic so much. The only decline I can see is in the fact they are not changing their company model for some things; for example, they're still clinging to very small and picky reprint (Eternal Master) and all cards have augmented price so much its infuriating. Back a couple of years ago, I had a big collection (full dual land, some cheezy card like Mana Crypt/Abyss/Chains, etc. even a Beta Time Vault) and I sold everything for my university fees. Getting back in the game I can only play Block now, because anything else is too pricey: now one deck is worth almost as much as I sold everything back then, it's incredible. And because of format like EDH being SO BIG now, even shitty cards for casual are now overpriced because people play them in their EDH.

tldr: I still think the game is cool, but they could improve their model and Grim Flayer is broken no matter what nostalgia you ascribe to me.

 

[Grunker]

then I saw Grim Flayer and I thought that nothing would have been like this back in the day

It's so odd to see Grim Flayer and think that. I bet I can show a card from every single set of Magic except the handful of true stinkers with a more powerful card than Grim Flayer. In fact, name me five sets, and I'll be happy to give it a try. I'll only refuse to do a set if it's like Homelands or something. Most sets will have cards more powerful.

It's probably not even the best card in Eldritch Moon. Reid Duke called it "a role-player, not a staple", saying:

Grim Flayer seems worse than Sylvan Advocate, even in dedicated GB Delirium decks. That said, creature decks tend to want more than four 2-drops, and Grim Flayer is still quite good. As a 2/2 trample, he doesn’t dish out a ton of punishment, and can get blocked by most creatures in the format. He does have a triggered ability that can help to level him up, and gives you other benefits in a self-mill deck.

And I gotta say, like Reid, I'm having a real hard time seeing this guy beat Sylvan Advocate. It's bigger, it's ability is better, and it's easier to cast.

If you can actually get this to be a 4/4 consistently around the fourth turn of the game, then you have a nice start to an aggressively slanted GB midrange deck.

And checking the winning decks of some websites (SCG etc.) with that card being almost everywhere (except for some winning ramp deck, which is cool), I think my criticism is not unfair

Sorry, what? Where are you seeing this? The Pro Tour hasn't even begun, and last time we had a Pro Tour, the major deck in the tournament didn't even end up being a Tier 1 deck.

The card is fucking $8 paper. Origins Jace is $30 even though it's on its way out of standard. At its height it was $70. I mean it might blow up and blow everyone's mind, but we're not even close to the consensus you're purporting now.

for example, they're still clinging to very small and picky reprint

Yeah it sucks. It's part of why I mainly play online. Although, "small and picky" is a lie. Rather, there is a small and picky list of cards they won't reprint.

EDH being SO BIG now

EDH is a cancer.

Grim Flayer is broken no matter what nostalgia you ascribe to me.

Your focus on the Flayer is really weird. It's a cool card, but you seem to think it's like the new Tolarian Academy or something.

 

[Coma White]

tldr: I still think the game is cool, but they could improve their model and Grim Flayer is broken no matter what nostalgia you ascribe to me.

I feel Magic is often subject to subjective categorizing more than almost any other tabletop property I've experienced.

Shut up. You are what is wrong with Magic.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Coma White Grunker
I rechecked the set (hey, I hadn't even checked the rest, like I said a couple of times already (if you read), I'm new to this) and I agree with both of you the card is not the best.

Where did I say I was a pro or something ? Of course the analysis of Reid Duke regarding the meta is better than me. I'm just stating that it's damn strong, and to me, a card that is broken. I'm not saying it's ''Jace the mind scupltor with shuffle effect''-strong: I'm just saying that regarding normal curve and mana cost, this card is broken. 2CMC for a 2/2 trample is already very good. Having another useful ability (lib manipulation) is excellent. Having something to pump it up with no mana or tapping involved ? This is broken to me. I'm not saying that it's Tolerian Academy-broken, I'm (again I'll say it) saying it's broken compared to what a 2/2 for 2CMC is supposed to be. Following the definition ''broken : out of working order'', I stand by what I said : it's broken because it's out of the normal order of cards like it. I'm not saying it is breaking the game itself (like Yawgmoth's Will), I'm just saying it's broken compared to what it's supposed to be. I hope this clarify my position so we can speak more politely from now on : no need to be insulting. I am sorry if my previous post were too subjective or erratic: I was very tired. I hope you will excuse this.

 

[Grunker]

2CMC for a 2/2 trample is already very good.

Nigga that card wouldn't even be playable in Homelands standard. You'd maybe play it as a 22nd, 23rd card in limited. And it's multicolor!

I'm not criticizing you for being a newb, and neither is Coma. Coma's point was that for some reason people think they speak from a position of knowledge when Magic is concerned, even when they know very little.

I tend to dislike such theories, but I'm sad to say you're living up to that accusations in spades when tossing about claims that this or that card is broken.

 

[Grunker]

For my part, my main criticism of your posts was that you agreed with the decline myth, and you used something as dubious as Grim Flayer to support that agreement. If you were tired of whatever it's fine, who cares, it's just a shouting match on the internet bro <3

 

[Jaedar]

Nigga that card wouldn't even be playable in Homelands standard. You'd maybe play it as a 22nd, 23rd card in limited. And it's multicolor!

While bears are often something you want one or two of in limited, bears with strict color requirements are not.

If it were a 2/2 trampler for 1G it'd be perfectly playable in many limited decks, especially if its a set with some good ways to pump it. Still not a very early pick, but they can't all be pack1pick1.

Of course, this bring us to another reason magic is dying: a card like this is somehow a mythic!

In other news, the maro has said that the next set is potentially as good as original innistrad. Get HAIP.

 

[Grunker]

Nigga that card wouldn't even be playable in Homelands standard. You'd maybe play it as a 22nd, 23rd card in limited. And it's multicolor!

While bears are often something you want one or two of in limited, bears with strict color requirements are not.

If it were a 2/2 trampler for 1G it'd be perfectly playable in many limited decks

Sorry to sound like the aloof hypergeek once more, but this hasn't been true for limited in quite a while. The last format where Vanilla 2/2s (and 2/2 Trample is almost Vanilla) was something you were happy to put in your deck was Gatecrash. And only because the format was very aggressive. Without some 2/2s, you simply died.

Gatecrash is quite a while ago. In fact it's almost back when I started getting into MTGO.

Currently if you're playing a 2/2 for 2 without very relevant upside, you shouldn't feel great about it.

 

[Jaedar]

Nigga that card wouldn't even be playable in Homelands standard. You'd maybe play it as a 22nd, 23rd card in limited. And it's multicolor!

While bears are often something you want one or two of in limited, bears with strict color requirements are not.

If it were a 2/2 trampler for 1G it'd be perfectly playable in many limited decks

Sorry to sound like the aloof hypergeek once more, but this hasn't been true for limited in quite a while. The last format where Vanilla 2/2s (and 2/2 Trample is almost Vanilla) was something you were happy to put in your deck was Gatecrash. And only because the format was very aggressive. Without some 2/2s, you simply died.

Gatecrash is quite a while ago. In fact it's almost back when I started getting into MTGO.

Currently if you're playing a 2/2 for 2 without very relevant upside, you shouldn't feel great about it.

I rarely feel good about more than like, 6 cards in my limited deck. One takes what one can get.

 

[Grunker]

And these days, one can simply do better. If I play a vanilla 2/2 for 2, something went decidedly wrong or I am hyperaggressive.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

And these days, one can simply do better. If I play a vanilla 2/2 for 2, something went decidedly wrong or I am hyperaggressive.

What kind of card in past sets were 2/2 for 2 with : a. a combat ability (trample here) b. a pump/lib manipulation ability. The dual color for me is not a factor since there is good mana fixing in this set.

I'm not saying they never existed, but to me it's not as common as you say it is. Nor is that card as sucky as you say it is. Maybe it's not as strong as I say it is... which wouldn't surprise me since I'm just getting back into it and never been a pro anyway ! Maybe my problem is that I say it's stronger that it really is... but by reading you I'm under the impression that you say it's worst than what it is. Let's compare it to other cards with 2 CMC and trample (I didn't bother to check other combat ability such as Firststrike, but my point stands since most of the other are for other purpose than combat (like Thalia)) :

Avatar of the Resolute is also 3/2 for 2CMC with trample and can get better. Excellent indeed. Maybe better than Grim Flayer. But I'll take the Lib Manipulation instead personally, especially since it has delirium and add something to that mechanic.

Furyblade Vampire is 1/2 trample. Her ability is nice for a madness deck, but nothing shining.

Goblin Deathraider is good for aggro, 3/1.

Hellspark Elemental has Unearth and Haste, so it's kind of a different role.

Hunted Horror is cool, but I didn't play constructed at that time (Standard) so I have no idea if it was used.

Kargan Dragonlord is nice, but not the same kind, and not broken.

Kavu Predator can become very big indeed.

Lotleth Troll was used alot. Very good card indeed. Comparable as a beatstick since it can get even stronger in it's own block/standard.

Etc.

If you go in more older cards, like Pygmy Razorback or Satyr Rambler, you have 2/1 trample for 2CMC, with nothing else. I get it that Grim Flayer is Mythic, but in the end in constructed standard, it doesn't change squat because people will buy the card. The only thing is does is more cash-money for Wizard of the Coast and such.

Is that card better than Goyf ? Of course not... But I still think it does the same kind of job : building up throughout the game and serving as a beatstick. The fact it has lib manipulation and trample only makes it awesome (still not better than Goyf). Even if I agree with you that it's not that groundbreaking as I made it to be, I still think you are downplaying this. Price of the card doesn't mean squat. When Snapcaster came out it wasn't even near the price it is now and I loaded up on him. Then people understood back what Flashback meant and it went up. We'll have to wait and see.

And like I said I don't think I'm a decliner: I like the new set (even if colorless becoming a color is kind of lame).

 

[Grunker]

And these days, one can simply do better. If I play a vanilla 2/2 for 2, something went decidedly wrong or I am hyperaggressive.

What kind of card in past sets were 2/2 for 2 with : a. a combat ability (trample here) b. a pump/lib manipulation ability.

1. You must be tired again. I very clearly responded directly to your "A 2/2 with trample is already very good" comment. As in: no, a 2/2 with trample is not "very good", in fact it's descriptively below average and you would NEVER play it in standard and you'd be sad to run it in Limited. Obviously Grim Flayer everything included is good in limited, though it's merely a good bit above average unless you're running a dedicated delirium deck. It's not a great first pick since it forces you into two colors from the start and rewards you with very little.

2. You can't judge things with statements like "a combat ability." Combat abilities are not equal. A vanilla 2/2 with trample is, for nearly all intends and purposes, mainly a vanilla 2/2. Trample on a 2-power creature is maybe a 2% bonus on the card. It's only relevant in the few situations where you get an aura on it or use your big combat trick on a 2/2, and the payoff there is a bit of extra damage. Of course it's worth more on the Flayer since it gets to be a 4/4, but I am again challenging your statement that "a 2/2 with trample is already very good."

3. Past sets? OH HO HO HO

Arguably the best limited 2-drop of all-time?

(you'll note that there's actually a near reprint of it in the current set, which is not as good as mongrel due to there being much, much better madness cards in green during oddesey, but still arguably better in limited than Grim Flayer and certainly a better first pick)

Or what about some competition for best creture of all time?

This card dominated standard and had to be banned, and is now defining an archetype in Legacy

More bannings!

Hmmmmm, so far only talking about playability, but what about price? Let's say... more than $150 paper

Maybe you'd like a bit of 2-for-1?

But wait, there are actually better fucking 2-drops in Standard RIGHT NOW and I already told you about one of them

The list goes on. Grim Flayer will never play in the same league as these guys, not even close. (well except the two last cards, but they're not in the league of the previous cards)

Also, you're bordering on a strawman with all your "the card is good" comments. No one is challenging that the card could show up in standard. So when it does and become a staple in the format, don't come running here yelling "you guys said it'd be baaaaaad." It's not, it's clearly a very efficient card.

But it is not "broken", and it certainly isn't power creep.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Your argument convinced me I must say. Yet I just want to clarify two thing : first, I noted, especially, that Grim Flayer task is not the same of half (if not more) of the card you pointed out. It's like comparing Force of Will and Lost in the Mist just because they cost the same, or Force of Will and Daze because they both share the fact they can be played without mana. Snapcaster or Stoneforge are not in the same league (both in term of power and role). Goyf is a very good comparison to me, and I agree that he is better (and I said it earlier). But yes, you are right in saying that Trample is subpar compared to other abilities, especially since it's only on a 2/2. My original point was : ''It's just that the card is too powerful for its cost IMO'', and I still think that it's right; it's not because Stoneforge mystic was broken that Grim Flayer is any less sucky IMO.

Second, I said that I don't see power creep and I have no problem with newer set. I think it's my third time saying it. I'll even quote myself (again) : ''Also I don't think it's that much of a decline in terms of general mechanics. I've seen really freakin' cool cards.''

But yes, you are right, this card is not format defining, nor standard defining. It's just that my initial thought was ''It's strong'', and then I randomly clicked deck on SCG and saw it was there in a couple of one. Bad clicking on my part ? Maybe. Still now that you provided lists of card and that I checked the other deck in the format, I agree with you.

IMO Case closed unless you want to delve further in that conversation. Thank you for replying all the way through.

The new set is much fun I think. I built myself a madness deck for casual (since I loved madness back in the day, still play Block with UG Madness). I think it's very nice. I loved it when they brought back flashback with Innistrad, bringing back Madness is cool too.