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World building is king

What is king?

  • mechanics

    Votes: 23 21.7%
  • world building

    Votes: 24 22.6%
  • OP is king of faggots

    Votes: 59 55.7%

  • Total voters
    106

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Combat always devolves into some repetitive tactic in every RPG, ever.
This is not true tho, games like baldurs gate 2, or tales of maj eyal have enough class flexibility to force you to constantly change up your tactics.

It's not a problem specific to PoE. If you min/max & play as efficient as possible, it's only a matter of time before you end up with trite gameplay.
Sure, which is why i believe games focused on specialization are flawed from the start. I believe theres no intrinsic challenge in just increasing specific numbers within a system. The problem is that not only was PoE aped as inspired by IE games, but it was also percieved as a spiritual succesor to BG2. It set its own bar and sold copies of it based on this.
Also

no matter the RPG, combat always devolves into onedimensional gameplay. good games will require the player amassing more knowledge of the game's system before this comes into effect.
This is nonsense, it has no reason to devolve into onedimensional gameplay, it just does because of faulty character systems. Also most RPGs have poor combat, this is a well known fact and something we tend to accept if the game delivers in other areas. The fact that PoE happens to be one of them does not exempt it from criticism tho.
Anyway, the problem isnt that PoE failed at combat, its that it failed at everything.

If i had to point out the parts i liked about the game id end up with Durance, the text based adventures (sadly they were very scarce and short) and some player made portraits, and thats it.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
The appropriate place for World building is in the first chapter of a richly documented manual that comes with the RPG.

The reason why so many modern games are hollow, is because now all we get is a downloadable pdf.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
The appropriate place for World building is in the first chapter of a richly documented manual that comes with the RPG.

The reason why so many modern games are hollow, is because now all we get is a downloadable pdf.
Nope, its because people that do the writing and people in charge of systems are not the same, not only that, they usually are kept very isolated from eachother.
 

Raziel

Educated
Joined
Jun 18, 2016
Messages
80
I haven't played tales of maj eyal, will look into it.

I'm generalizing here, but the BG2 fight formula follows as such; buff up, throw dispels, focus stuff, rinse and repeat. If we're talking about solo runs then sure there's a few different playstyles, but generally you're always going to be abusing one specific tactic. Don't misunderstand, I think BG2's one of the games that has endured time the best. I certaintly can't say in earnest that BG2 was one-dimensional when I first played it, or that the subsequent playthroughs had worn off the allure of the game. Yet even BG2 gameplay becomes formulaic, though I'd attest that more to the abundance of IE games and the static nature of 2nd edition DND in relation to character progression.

This is nonsense, it has no reason to devolve into onedimensional gameplay, it just does because of faulty character systems
That's my point. While good character systems will lengthen the time it takes to 'break' them, they all crumble eventually. For most games this happens on the first playthrough, good ones last longer. Wizardry 6/7 come to mind, but I guess one should be careful when invoking their name when it comes to RPG systems...

To stay on topic. I think one important facet of world building is how it's presented. If I have to read in-game wikis to get invested I'd rather just get a book. As ironic as the example is, I think PS:T did a great job here. The world is strange and alien, there's very little explanation given to you by anyone. You traverse the planes on your own and make your own judgements on what's what. Giving the player the choice of explaining the world is rarely given, and I'd like to see more games do that. Being spoon-fed lore gets tedious.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
No, you are misunderstanding. You can get better and master all RPGs, this is not a bad thing, you can find yourself using the best tactics and dealing with opponents in the most efficient way possible, this is what is called a mastery of the system.

With PoE it has little to do with mastery of the system and more to do with you simply bruteforcing victories by taking the same approach against every enemy.
While games like baldurs gate 2 offered several options to deal with any given threat. In PoE theres just "the tactic you chose", how you built your party is how youll tackle every fight from start to finish with 3-4 exceptions among over 100 encounters.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
Nice exaggeration.

We both know that isn't happening here.

Note: "Joined Saturday."

Haven't fallen far enough down the rabbit hole yet.

No, I try my best not to, but regardless your previous post is easily answerable.

I've always found bows requiring arrows in RPGs to be BS since it fails to abstract an aspect of one weapon while giving others, like melee weapons and their constantly need for maintenance and repair, a pass. Having them be required in a game would be ok if swords had to be oiled and sharpened to remain effective.
 

Zanzoken

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
3,558
Neither worldbuilding or mechanics are king.

It's actually content design, and in today's combat-centric RPGs the most important content is encounters.

We had a thread about it not too long ago.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Whether you want story or gameplay, it's the world building that provides context and therefore meaning.
The real choice isn't between walking simulator VS tactical/action-adventure/storyfag game, but between a tactical/action-adventure/storyfag game you don't care about and at worst a walking sim, at best tactical/action-adventure/storyfag game you DO care about.

Gameplay is great but you first need to care about the game you're playing.

None of that shit really matters much for a videogame beyond the basic setup of what the world is like and kind of ass lives in it.


Topography? Architecture? What the fuck
The fuck that provides meaning to every single frame.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
Neither worldbuilding or mechanics are king.

It's actually content design, and in today's combat-centric RPGs the most important content is encounters.

We had a thread about it not too long ago.

combat is the only kind of content that doesn't need good world building to be effective.
 

Coma White

Educated
Joined
Jul 9, 2016
Messages
375
Location
Malachor Depths
I thought the world building in Pillars of Eternity was fine. It was the mechanics that torpedoed that game for me. Everything is important, but degrees of importance have to be defined and taken in context (e.g. what kind of game are we talking about?)
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,365
Pathfinder: Wrath
combat is the only kind of content that doesn't need good world building to be effective.

Depends on what kind of fag you are. No matter how good the combat is, if world building completely sucks or non existent, for me, it is 3 hours to boredom and uninstall.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
If world building is king then Oblivion and Skyrim is to be fapped by most... oh wait, one do and one dont.

I'm actually asking for a reconsideration of Bethesda titles under what is essentially the POV of immershun. I feel like this point gets completely dismissed by the Codex which focuses on TES' shit mechanics. That's not to say that the world building is flawless in TES - Oblivion's and Morrowind's dialogue is an especially bad offender - but it probably changes Oblivion and Skyrim from unplayable shit to lower mediocrity.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Morrowind got such positions in RPGCodex Top 70. What more do you ask for?

I mean, it got better place than New Vegas and Mask of the Betrayer, whose setting and world building is frankly waaaay above TES.

Immershun is pure marketing bullshit spew by game reviewers and PR guys who dont know shit about games but aspire much to film reviewers. If you are immersed so much in such settings use by game, you got SERIOUS problem with your mental health and games' importance should be bottom of your priority scale.

We are talking about games with length of tens of hours, not a film with 3 hours, top.
 
Last edited:

Raziel

Educated
Joined
Jun 18, 2016
Messages
80
Immersed how much? I hope you're not considering everyone who gets 'immersed' in TES larping as mentally retarded. They might be, but not because of immersion.

I mean have you ever played tabletop games? While it's not the same it functions in a similiar fashion. In TES's case, you create a character with some background story and roleplay him to the best of your ability all the while ignoring in-game systems, because they're horribad. As for the setting, that's just a part of it.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
24
Poor mechanics, poor world building = shit
Poor mechanics, good world building = boring walking simulator
Good mechanics, poor world building = good for what it is
Good mechanics, good world building = good game

If you're a prospective dev that's bursting with ideas about the world and the characters within it but you find the business of actually implementing the game part of the roleplaying game difficult or superfluous, I'd say that you should probably go for some other medium. Make it a novel, or if you're autistic artistic and want so show your world, go with a VN. If you wish to preserve the C&C nature of your work, there's a huge amount of engines that allow you to create branching text-based Choose Your Own Adventure games. A lot of people who create RPGs with shit mechanics but ambitious worlds (or who are ambivalent to them) think that it simply is the way to go to deliver their experience, when it might actually be the worst. Play to your strengths and interests, don't try doing something that doesn't interest you or that you're shit at doing in trying to create your experience.

A couple of years ago I had the idea of making a massive Ultima 4-style RPG set on a Mars in the middle of a secessionist war with a fully fleshed out history, a fucktonne of characters, and a massive story. Then I realised that I a) wasn't interested in player agency in the story, b) had no good ideas for the actual mechanics of the game, and c) didn't have an idea as to how making this thing a game would help it. So I switched to writing it as a novel, and I'm just putting my finishing touches on my first draft which I'm very, very happy about.

So:

Poor mechanics, good world building = boring walking simulator, should have picked another medium
 

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