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The Rise of the Indie Developer

VentilatorOfDoom

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<p>GameSpot put up an article which <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/features/6298425/p-2.html" target="_blank">examines the indie scene</a>, spiced up with some interview snippets with the developers themselves.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>On the other end of the spectrum lie developers whose previous experience with publishers pushed them towards working independently. Andy Schatz, founder of Pocketwatch Games, designed his 2010 Independent Games Festival (IGF) award-winning title <a class="gslink" href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/monaco/index.html">Monaco</a>, a four-player co-op game inspired by French heist films and set in the city of the same name, while working for a AAA studio in 2003. After unsuccessfully pitching the project to a number of publishers, Schatz decided to go solo. While he recognises the importance of platforms like Steam, XBLA, PSN, and the iPhone in giving indie developers wider exposure, he is convinced that publishers are not doing enough in this space.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Big-budget games are boring," he says. "Even the best ones are boring. Indie games often suck too. But because there are no corporate dollars involved, indie developers can make games that they are passionate about. Good indie games are never built for a demographic: they are built with the passion of the developer. In the best cases, that passion is infused into the game in such a way that it rubs off on the gamer."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Schatz believes that as long as big-budget titles continue to "suck," the indie scene will continue to grow bigger and bigger, and the quality of indie titles will improve. Although he does believe that there is some value in repeating things that work well, he says that game developers often hit a creative wall when designs begin to cross each other's territories.</p>
<p>"When designs get inbred, they no longer are good designs--they only work for the people that have played all the previous iterations of those designs. I'm a huge fan of RPGs, but modern console RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion have really bastardized the design into something that looks similar to the old games we love, but don't actually work on their own merits. Yet I still played both of those games because I understand RPG conventions. I thought they were both boring, but I played them nonetheless, probably because RPGs are an obsessive compulsive affair. I have a hard time believing that someone who is new to RPGs will really enjoy them. On the other hand, I really like the new Assassin's Creed multiplayer. It's not perfect, but it's genuinely fun, and it feels like it was designed from the ground up as a game and not just an inbred variation on a formula."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Schatz believes indie developers can get a lot further with critical success than with publisher support. For him, winning the 2010 IGF award for Excellence in Design was a big step in the right direction. "Commercial success would be nice of course," he says. "It would be great to not be poor. But nothing gives me the inner satisfaction or feeling of self-worth like critical success. It's why I've been able to stay indie for the past six years despite modest and intermittent commercial success. It's part of the nature of the indie scene to cater to audiences that aren't being satisfied by big-budget games, so I think there will always be an indie scene making the games that the AAA guys and gals are too risk-averse to attempt. Us indies have to keep exploring, and we have to keep welcoming in outsiders. The current crop of indies won't be tomorrow's innovators: it will be fresh faces, the ones that think we are the ones doing it wrong. I love that I'm getting old and boring; it means that there's more out there that can surprise me."</p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/101574-the-rise-of-the-indie-developer.html">GB</a></p>
 

Forest Dweller

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I'm a huge fan of RPGs, but modern console RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion have really bastardized the design into something that looks similar to the old games we love, but don't actually work on their own merits.
:retarded:

Yeah I know, probably just a slip of the tongue, but it's not the first time I've seen someone make the name Fallout synonymous with Fallout 3. Have some fucking decency.
 
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Pocketwatch Games makes hand-crafted video games about animals and the environment.

You can download demos of our tycoon games from this site, or you can buy the full versions and get playing instantly! Our payment handling is safe and secure (all transactions are handled by a large and reputable payment processing company), and we offer complete refunds if you are not happy with your purchase.

Try our games out, you'll be surprised at how thought-provoking and entertaining a video game can be!

-Andy Schatz
Founder, Pocketwatch Games
I'd rather have the mainstream tripe, thankyouverymuch.
 
In My Safe Space
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Codex 2012
Dicksmoker said:
I'm a huge fan of RPGs, but modern console RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion have really bastardized the design into something that looks similar to the old games we love, but don't actually work on their own merits.
:retarded:

Yeah I know, probably just a slip of the tongue, but it's not the first time I've seen someone make the name Fallout synonymous with Fallout 3. Have some fucking decency.
Yeah, it's fucking annoying.
 

Johannes

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Unradscorpion said:
This is capitalism, indie games fail if they don't aim for a demographic.
Just because you don't conciously aim for one, doesn't necessarily mean an audience for it doesn't exist. But of course indie devs, like Jeff Vogel as a prime example, aim to specifically make a game with as big audience as possible instead of making the RPG of his dreams.
 

zeitgeist

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Unradscorpion said:
This is capitalism, indie games fail if they don't aim for a demographic.
"Indie" already is a specific demographic.

Or at least it's rapidly becoming one, just as it's happened in other entertainment industries in the past.
 
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Awor Szurkrarz said:
Dicksmoker said:
I'm a huge fan of RPGs, but modern console RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion have really bastardized the design into something that looks similar to the old games we love, but don't actually work on their own merits.
:retarded:

Yeah I know, probably just a slip of the tongue, but it's not the first time I've seen someone make the name Fallout synonymous with Fallout 3. Have some fucking decency.
Yeah, it's fucking annoying.

Considering the context of the sentence ("modern console rpgs"), even my dog would understand he's talking about F3. Specifying is optional if it would be just pointing out the obvious.

Aspies gonna aspie.
 
Repressed Homosexual
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I can't stand coverage of indie games and most indie games in general, they are pure bottom of the barrel, whimsical, nonsensical shit.

That Jonathan Blow guy has got to be the most insufferable bloward in the industry right now. No one at Bethesda or Bioware even comes anywhere close.
 

AndySchatz

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Hey guys, Andy from the interview here. Just wanted to pop in to say that I actually kind of regret being as blowhard-y as I was in that interview, I usually make a point to try not to insult individual games.

I do stand by what I said, I just usually try to be a bit more humble/tactful about it.

And yes, I was referring to Fallout 3. I played the first two when they came out and they were some of my most memorable RPG memories as a young'un. Sorry for leaving out the '3'! ;)

EDIT: Oh, and I shoud note that I am a huge fan of old RPGs, Bard's Tale, the Ultima Series, the Gold Box series, Baldur's Gate, XCOM are all favorites of mine. Ultima IV is probably why I'm a game developer myself.
 

zeitgeist

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AndySchatz said:
EDIT: Oh, and I shoud note that I am a huge fan of old RPGs, Bard's Tale, the Ultima Series, the Gold Box series, Baldur's Gate, XCOM are all favorites of mine. Ultima IV is probably why I'm a game developer myself.
Could you offer some insight into the reasons why indie developers (from personal experience if applicable) are unable or unwilling to make such games in modern times?
 

AndySchatz

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There are a few, see Eschalon and the Avernum series. There's also a fairly vibrant JRPG (ick) Gamemaker scene. I'm sure there's more - while I'm pretty well informed about the indie scene, I'm far from omniscient! :)

I'm not totally sure why there isn't more innovation on RPG concepts in the indie world. They are relatively easy to make, tech-wise. The only problem is they tend to be long games and I think most indie game makers don't expect people to play their games for more than an hour or two, 5 if they are really lucky. It might also be hard to get press for these types of games simply because the press likes short, snappy games, and videos.

It's a really good question, though. I wish I had a better answer for you. The idea that I'm chomping at the bit to make next, after Monaco, is a classic RPG of sorts.

EDIT: Thinking about it some more, maybe also because really well written story just isn't rewarded in the press much? The interactive fiction scene is vibrant but gets no press. I recently really enjoyed Choice of Broadsides (free, browser).

Other RPG-ish games have found some success. See the DROD series (there is an RPG one), and Desktop Dungeons.
 

Mangoose

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
Johannes said:
Unradscorpion said:
This is capitalism, indie games fail if they don't aim for a demographic.
Just because you don't conciously aim for one, doesn't necessarily mean an audience for it doesn't exist. But of course indie devs, like Jeff Vogel as a prime example, aim to specifically make a game with as big audience as possible instead of making the RPG of his dreams.
Based on interviews and his own blog articles, I'd really like Vogel to not make the RPG of his dreams.
 

MetalCraze

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Humanity has risen! said:
I can't stand coverage of indie games and most indie games in general, they are pure bottom of the barrel, whimsical, nonsensical shit.

Exactly.

The absolute majority of indie games is terrible terrible terrible shit that has only one design idea - "here's the unique (read pretentious) gameplay element - let's build the whole game around it without any thoughts put into quality".

It's like on one side of the gap we have shitty multiplatform mainstream titles and on the other side shitty indie games. And there's almost nothing in between where good games should be.
 

Wang Lo II

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zeitgeist said:
AndySchatz said:
EDIT: Oh, and I shoud note that I am a huge fan of old RPGs, Bard's Tale, the Ultima Series, the Gold Box series, Baldur's Gate, XCOM are all favorites of mine. Ultima IV is probably why I'm a game developer myself.
Could you offer some insight into the reasons why indie developers (from personal experience if applicable) are unable or unwilling to make such games in modern times?

They don't because they can't. That's the same reason no big dev company does it. Well, they can, but not with their business model.

The way fallout, wasteland, Syndicate and pretty much every RPG or similarly complex game that was great from game one was made was a single guy working for a couple years to get the core game mechanics done then the artists and writers came on board. For Syndicate they didn't tack the story on til the last few months.

Other games like wizardry and ultima started off pretty simple then slowly added game by game, but to simply jump into the middle with a very complex game is almost impossible. Toee is the closest anyone ever came to succeeding at doing that in a short time and it could have used another year of debugging and to be honest simply completing features that didn't pan out well like pathfinding.

In short dev cycle destroys games, and not just overall time spent but the length of time from start to end because you can't just add in more programmers and make things go more faster very easily.

Using scripting languages destroys games as well because programming in a scripting paradigm is great for unrelated small tasks but when it comes to tools that solve general cases of problems it degenerates into chaos and the project size where you start to spend more time maintaining code than writing code is relatively small.

For overrated crap engines like Unity or Torque even if you program in a better language if you are forced into a scripting paradigm then your ability to make complex game features is greatly hampered. Now I am not talking about running an animation as a feature or special fx, but I am talking about data dependent features. So you can make a tool to handle general dialog or script the dialog each time, which will be better? That's a contrived example because it doesn't really explain the WHY and you can make tools with scripting languages they are just much more of a mess to debug and maintain.

Everyone doubts statements like this but then AOD has been "done" the whole time I can remember the fucking thing, even though to me the demo feels very raw and unfinished. In 2007 vince said it was done but he could replace 40% of the game because he thought it was not good enough so what happened? Well, part of what happened is that torquescript is just unsuited for a major software engineering project, and even though from a data standpoint they simplified their combat system as much as possible it's just not a good way to develop such a thing. If you are "rewriting" code a lot, you are either incompetent or using bad tools. Yet constantly most programmers do rewrite stuff. For me, projects start off like shit, little progress is made for a distressing time, then things start to look good then finally all of a sudden it all falls into place and the problem is solved completely, forever.

So probably won't see any big indie games any time soon if they use the commonly used "I can program like big boy too" tools. And that doesn't even account for the actual content. Making quests and dialog and a story and backstory for an RPG is a huge amount of work. So how many people you know who can write well, program well, model and animate well and have 5 years to kill?

You can pretty much count on never seeing an indie RPG at the level of complexity and content as fallout.

On the other hand you can see someone make a 3D engine that could run the fallout game some day. As soon as I get my game "polished" (read done). I was going to make full RPG but I realized I like games like JA 2 much more any way and that I would spend at least a year or two just writing and making quests. So instead in simple terms the engine is basically fallout 2 combined with JA 2 but in 3D much more modable than either.

I am yahweh, giver of life.

(Cue the usual feebles to come in and say why it's completely impossible to actually accomplish things and tell me I am a troll)
 

AndySchatz

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MetalCraze said:
The absolute majority of indie games is terrible terrible terrible shit that has only one design idea - "here's the unique (read pretentious) gameplay element - let's build the whole game around it without any thoughts put into quality".
Heh, some of us like these games. Maybe some of us have bad taste ;)
 

Radisshu

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AndySchatz said:
MetalCraze said:
The absolute majority of indie games is terrible terrible terrible shit that has only one design idea - "here's the unique (read pretentious) gameplay element - let's build the whole game around it without any thoughts put into quality".
Heh, some of us like these games. Maybe some of us have bad taste ;)

Try not to argue with Skyway, it doesn't really pay off.
 

Metro

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AndySchatz said:
MetalCraze said:
The absolute majority of indie games is terrible terrible terrible shit that has only one design idea - "here's the unique (read pretentious) gameplay element - let's build the whole game around it without any thoughts put into quality".
Heh, some of us like these games. Maybe some of us have bad taste ;)

He hates everything other than Arma 2 near as I can tell.
 

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