Holy crap! Kurt Loder tears Moore a new'un

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Holy crap! Kurt Loder tears Moore a new'un

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MisterStone

Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 6929

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: Holy crap! Kurt Loder tears Moore a new'un

Damn, and I thought that Kurt Loder was just a homely talking head from MTV during my college years. http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml "Sicko" is Moore's "documentary" film about the American health care system, just in case some of our non-Amurrkin friends here aren't familiar with the title. Good to see that the media is less willing to buy bullshit from Moore this time around...

Major_Blackhart
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Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 5223
Location: Jersey for now

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:02 am Post subject:

What, is it any surprise that Moore kisses the ass of that dictator fuck Castro? I've never heard anything good said about him by the Cubans I know (which is alot cause I live in Jersey (Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans baby! All chicks got great asses!)) Even the Cuban youth, for the most part, despises castro. _________________ Well, it's not quite a mop, and it's not quite a puppet, but man oh man. Nicolai wrote "You are the worst person ever, Blackhart." http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7018/rexsig24nq9ky.png

back to sportforredneck
-

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 7475
Location: Maryland/Iowa

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:11 am Post subject:

I don't even see why anyone pays attention to Michael Moore, he's a complete asshole and does exactly what all documentaries do and spin bullshit to their perspective. The only reason he has ever been recognized is because his views of the United States being a Socialist Nanny State fits in with every failure in Hollywood. He also messed with Charlton Heston for no reason, so fuck him double.

Timur

Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 285

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:33 am Post subject:

Pretty much all political pundits are bullshit. Left or right, it makes no difference. They're all parasites looking to make a buck off of their mutual enmity.

TalesfromtheCrypt

Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 2227
Location: hitting ass and leg

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Holy crap! Kurt Loder tears Moore a new'un

MisterStone wrote:

"Sicko" is Moore's "documentary" film about the American health care system, just in case some of our non-Amurrkin friends here aren't familiar with the title.

.

Funny that you would assume Europeans or other non-americans could not know the film, since antiamerican "intelectuals" on the whole world (especially moore) are propably the biggest moore fans ever.
Those movies are made for them Wink

_________________
My father's people say that at the birth of the sun and of his brother the moon, their mother died. So the sun gave to the earth her body, from which was to spring all life. And he drew forth from her breast the stars, and the stars he threw into the night sky to remind him of her soul. - Tyrax Lightning

obediah

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 4968

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:13 am Post subject:

Major_Blackhart wrote:

What, is it any surprise that Moore kisses the ass of that dictator fuck Castro? I've never heard anything good said about him by the Cubans I know (which is alot cause I live in Jersey (Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans baby! All chicks got great asses!)) Even the Cuban youth, for the most part, despises castro.

Jesus, it's well past time for the U.S. to let go of Cuba. Yeah, you were rich and Castro took your shit, boo fucking hoo. As the rest of the world knows, Cuba isn't a north korea-like bastion of disease, poverty, and pure evil - most foreign people I've talked to about Cuba didn't even know we still had any sort of embargo against them. But displaced Cubans like to vote and have money, and Castro pushed all the right buttons, so like a giant toddler, the U.S. has been holding it's breath and giving him the stink eye for 40+ years.

John Yossarian
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 575
Location: Pianosa

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:51 am Post subject:

obediah wrote:

Yeah, having asthma attacks and not being able to use the respirators or w/e because they didn't have any of the stupid glass tubes in the hospital, or giving my 2+ year old ripped up shoes to kids to go to school, or seeing a teenager girl jump through half a block of roofs getting chased by police dogs for selling the coffee her family grew must have all been part of my imagination.
_________________

obediah wrote:

"What is so damn sexy about my childhood? Why does everyone that can gather a bit of venture capital insist on finding some fresh, untainted memory from my youth to rape the fucking shit out of?"

obediah

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 4968

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:46 am Post subject:

John Yossarian wrote:

obediah wrote:

1.. How are the situations you described any different from all the other latin american shit holes the U.S. makes mad passionate tourist and trade love with?

2. We've made nice with Vietnam, Russia, China, India, and a host of other ZOMG!11! eaters of the free world countries since the Cuban missile crisis. And the rest of the world has made up with Cuba. It's time to let it go.

Out of curiosity, how old are you and when did you leave?

sheek
'''
'''

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 1519
Location: Cydonia

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject:

Sorry, this debunker is as much as a moron as Michael Moore. He jumps from the British to the French to the Canadian health care systems... and then to Cuba (!!!) without any logic all being used to prove the same 'point'. There are absolutley no similarities between the UK and other health care systems... they are totally different system and only a fucking moron would call them all 'socialized'. Second the French health care system is probably the best in the world, on average. Yes there are problems, but they all relate to abuse of the system, and they could be cut down on very easily. The systems worked fine for decades and it's only now it's becoming expensive (though it's still cheaper than the US system), often because of a tiny minority. All we need to do is cut immigrants out of coverage, place limits on the number of visits and medicines, and be a little stricter in general and everything will be fine, and we'll have a system guaranteed to work for the next fifty years. I'm not an expert on Canada but I think it's pretty similar, except their insurances are more varied. Anyway using the fact that there are some abuses to condemn an entire policy, and argue for a free-trade, dog-eat-dog health-care, is something only a fucking idiot could do. edit: I actually just experienced your glorious 'private' health-care the other day. I'm in the UK and need to get a blood test to check on allergies and things. I phoned five private hospitals/clinics, and they want from £100 to 350 ($200-700) to give it to me. Yes, the $700 one is with a consultation because they won't accept the prescription I already have, I have to see one of 'their' doctors. In other words they're fucking insane, and I can't get a nurse to stick a needle in my arm and suck out some blood, which takes all of five minutes. In other words fucking scammer monopolists. On the other hand if you're on the NHS you'll wait two months or something. Those who can afford to pay most of a month's salary for a single hospital visit are fine, those who can't get 'progressively' sicker. Thanks, but no, I'll stick to the French system. _________________ posted from a Mobile Phone The key to understanding RPGCodex I'm a scot. The scottish are a noble race of warriors dedicated to their families, their dogs and their lands.

John Yossarian
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 575
Location: Pianosa

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject:

obediah wrote:

1.. How are the situations you described any different from all the other latin american shit holes the U.S. makes mad passionate tourist and trade love with?

The poverty and disease bit, not that different, but claiming Cuba is not like that is bullshit, and that's all I was responding to.

Quote:

2. We've made nice with Vietnam, Russia, China, India, and a host of other ZOMG!11! eaters of the free world countries since the Cuban missile crisis. And the rest of the world has made up with Cuba. It's time to let it go.

Cubans have political refugee status in the US because the Cuban government violates their human rights, so it would be kind of disingenous to disregard that and make nice with Cuba. This is also the reason I have for disagreeing with letting Cubans in the US travel to Cuba. They presumably left because of the oppresive government, how can they just forget that and travel there, thereby supporting said government? It's like if exiled jews traveled back to German occupied countries during WW2 if Hitler promised not to gas them.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how old are you and when did you leave?

I'm 22 now,and I turned 15 a few days after I left.
_________________

obediah wrote:

"What is so damn sexy about my childhood? Why does everyone that can gather a bit of venture capital insist on finding some fresh, untainted memory from my youth to rape the fucking shit out of?"

sheek
'''
'''

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 1519
Location: Cydonia

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject:

I'm sure Cuba is not a nice place to live in, and Castro is an evil man but their health-care system is pretty remarkable for such a poor country. They have the kind of mentality democracies have during war time, it works but it's unjust. From just a health point of view I think they're better off staying socialist. _________________ posted from a Mobile Phone The key to understanding RPGCodex I'm a scot. The scottish are a noble race of warriors dedicated to their families, their dogs and their lands.

KazikluBey

Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 290

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject:

I love it how that article mentions Guantanamo and then goes on to mention that "CUBA VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS!!! BAD MOORE, BAD!".

John Yossarian
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 575
Location: Pianosa

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject:

Because you know, jailing people for shooting at your soldiers and jailing them for telling a few relatives that you don't think one bread bun a day is enough is exactly the same thing.
_________________

obediah wrote:

"What is so damn sexy about my childhood? Why does everyone that can gather a bit of venture capital insist on finding some fresh, untainted memory from my youth to rape the fucking shit out of?"

Kraken

Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 157

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject:

John Yossarian wrote:

Because you know, jailing people for shooting at your soldiers and jailing them for telling a few relatives that you don't think one bread bun a day is enough is exactly the same thing.

You mean jailing them, without a trial for many years is better? What about denying them both prisoner of war rights and civil rights at the same time, because apparently these people are neither? What about secret prisons in eastern Europe, where people are first kidnapped and then tortured there?

Many of the people at Guantanamo haven't fired a single shot, are never told what they are suspected of, and don't have any chance to defend themselves. How much worse can Cuba possibly be?
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psycojester

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 2526

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject:

Yeah fuck the Geneva convention and human rights, those don't matter if the other guys are bads guys. _________________ The Apocalypse has been canceled due to low rating with casual prophets.

obediah

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 4968

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject:

John Yossarian wrote:

obediah wrote:

1.. How are the situations you described any different from all the other latin american shit holes the U.S. makes mad passionate tourist and trade love with?

The poverty and disease bit, not that different, but claiming Cuba is not like that is bullshit, and that's all I was responding to.

I'm not sure what you think I am claiming. I'm comparing Cuba to North Korea, not summer in Connecticut.

1. Does Cuba have a nuclear weapons program that it uses to threaten the U.S. and her allies?

2. Does Cuba have a medium-long range missile program that it uses to threaten the U.S. and her allies?

3. How large is the Cuban military? How ready are they to invade Florida or even other neighbors?

4. How does the Cuban quality of life compare to North Korea? They definiteiy win on electricity, food, and health care. Cuba is a thriving tourist destination for the rest of the world.

From what (admittedly not much) information I have, Cuba shares more problems with it's neighbors than with N. Korea.

Quote:

I like the way you think. I don't think it's how U.S. policy should be decided, but I enjoy your reasoning. As a non-Cuban, I'm more bothered that the rest of us can't go visit. It certainly made since during the cold war, but now it's just silly.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how old are you and when did you leave?

I'm 22 now,and I turned 15 a few days after I left.[/quote]

Well then unless robot-Castro is a success you should have the option of going back to visit when you're older.

Lord Of The Penii

Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Heap

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:

Oh yeah...Cuba is a mean evil state that violate human rights. Oh :O Luckly USA, the paladin of the world never did such thing and never killed or jailed a innocent. USA will save us from the evil people \o/ Last edited by Lord Of The Penii on Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

MisterStone

Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 6929

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject:

sheek wrote:

Sorry, this debunker is as much as a moron as Michael Moore. He jumps from the British to the French to the Canadian health care systems... and then to Cuba (!!!) without any logic all being used to prove the same 'point'. There are absolutley no similarities between the UK and other health care systems... they are totally different system and only a fucking moron would call them all 'socialized'.

Second the French health care system is probably the best in the world, on average. Yes there are problems, but they all relate to abuse of the system, and they could be cut down on very easily. The systems worked fine for decades and it's only now it's becoming expensive (though it's still cheaper than the US system), often because of a tiny minority.

All we need to do is cut immigrants out of coverage, place limits on the number of visits and medicines, and be a little stricter in general and everything will be fine, and we'll have a system guaranteed to work for the next fifty years.

I'm not an expert on Canada but I think it's pretty similar, except their insurances are more varied.

Anyway using the fact that there are some abuses to condemn an entire policy, and argue for a free-trade, dog-eat-dog health-care, is something only a fucking idiot could do.

edit:
I actually just experienced your glorious 'private' health-care the other day. I'm in the UK and need to get a blood test to check on allergies and things. I phoned five private hospitals/clinics, and they want from £100 to 350 ($200-700) to give it to me. Yes, the $700 one is with a consultation because they won't accept the prescription I already have, I have to see one of 'their' doctors. In other words they're fucking insane, and I can't get a nurse to stick a needle in my arm and suck out some blood, which takes all of five minutes.

In other words fucking scammer monopolists. On the other hand if you're on the NHS you'll wait two months or something. Those who can afford to pay most of a month's salary for a single hospital visit are fine, those who can't get 'progressively' sicker.

1) I'm pretty sure that the reviewer didn't promote the U.S. healthcare system as good or even better than the other ones in the movie.

2) The reviewer moved from topic to topic according to how Moore covered them in the film. He wasn't jumping from system to system in an attempt to make a point. HE WAS REACTING TO THE MOVIE. If anything, the criticism that these systems are not alike proves that Moore is a dumbass, not the reviewer.

3) If the French healthcare system is the best in the world, that's great. The author doesn't say the care sucks so much as he says that it is ridiculously inefficient and wasteful. Sure you'd like to "stick with the French healthcare system"... I just wonder how much you will like it when those "limits" you mentioned are put in place. And exactly how do you propose to deny health care to immigrants (booo immigrants eeeevill!!!)? Is there even a private healthcare system in place that they can use?

4) You're trying to get health care in the UK and you are referring to it as "your private healthcare"? Don't they have insurance in the UK? ENGLISH HEALTH INSURANCE MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU HAVE IT? Do you even know how insurance works?

Don't expect me to defend the U.S. health care system... I know it's fucked up and ridiculously expensive without a good insurance plan. But that doesn't mean I have to buy Michael Moore's dumbass bullshit propaganda. You do realize that the article was a film review, right?

obediah

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 4968

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject:

MisterStone wrote:

Don't expect me to defend the U.S. health care system... I know it's fucked up and ridiculously expensive without a good insurance plan.

FYI, the movie is about how ridicously expensive the US health care system is for those with a "good" insurance place. And for all the assaults on the movie, I haven't seen any credible claims that the situation in the U.S. is better than he claims. The fact that other systems aren't as wonderful as he claims doesn't make deflating health care costs in the U.S. any less important.

Quote:

But that doesn't mean I have to buy Michael Moore's dumbass bullshit propaganda. You do realize that the article was a film review, right?

I don't like his style either. Here's half the numbers, a few fudged facts, and an outragous anecdote or claim to burn the numbers into your brain. I have no interest in watching any of his movies. Of course while we're throwing stones, FOX News, the current executive branch, and Dick Cheney are guilty of the same shit. I'm sure we can chase the trail all the way back to the invention of numbers.

MisterStone

Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 6929

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject:

obediah wrote:

MisterStone wrote:

Don't expect me to defend the U.S. health care system... I know it's fucked up and ridiculously expensive without a good insurance plan.

Quote:

But that doesn't mean I have to buy Michael Moore's dumbass bullshit propaganda. You do realize that the article was a film review, right?

The criticism from this and other reviews I read generally doesn't try to show that Moore was lying when he exposed the problems with U.S. health care, rather, he is criticized for holding up state-run healthcare as a good solution.

And once again, this was a review of a specific film, so the reviewer isn't obligated to call bullshit on everyone in known history- just on the film.

fizzelopeguss

Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 3519

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject:

sheek wrote:

In other words fucking scammer monopolists. On the other hand if you're on the NHS you'll wait two months or something. Those who can afford to pay most of a month's salary for a single hospital visit are fine, those who can't get 'progressively' sicker.

Thanks, but no, I'll stick to the French system.

NHS? two months for a blood test? at my local you're in and out in 15 minutes.

My brother suddenly started to have chronic headaches that kept him bed ridden, our doctor came out and phoned an ambulance for him, had all the tests and they discovered it was a brain tumor. He had the complicated brain operation that night and spent months in hospital recieving care, God only know how much that would of cost in the US.

The NHS can have it's problems (i've never experienced any, except for the odd prescription cock up). I'm sure half the people who complain about waiting times to see a doctor are those tossers who go to hospital with the sniffles.

Bradylama

Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 2271
Location: Oklahomo

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject:

There's way too many people running over each other to try and prove how much they know about healthcare and how great/terrible it is in their/other countries. The point of the review isn't to point out that Moore's film is factually wrong, it's to point out that it's disingenuous. The omissions of state-created healthcare victims have no place in a film which tries to claim the solution to our healtchare problem is socialized medicine when such government monopolies are only marginally better. Hell, Upton Sinclair never called for government reforms in The Jungle. He wasn't even expecting them. This is what journalists are supposed to do. A good journalist and documentarian attempt to expose corruption and suffering to their readership or audience. Attempting to provide the solution becomes the job of activists, but when journalism and activism conjoin the end result is propaganda. People still talk about the massacre on the Odessa Steps as if it really happened, and that's why hacks like Moore have to be debunked intellectually, and denied the status of documentarian.

Human Shield

Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Posts: 2027
Location: VA, USA

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject:

Funny the article mentions Upton Sinclair considering he made his shit up too. You can't talk about benefits without talking about costs, they go together. You can have great health care at a cost to other areas like economies of dumbfuck socialist countries with higher taxes and higher unemployment. The answer is getting the most benefit with the lowest cost which is what competition does and what is limited by the American regulation system. Is a Government run system going to be better then a Government backed cartel? Maybe at first but would speed the loss of capital and would be harder to turn back from. Moore and others complain that it costs too much, I say lower the price instead of take others from others. _________________ Axes are Blunt Weapons, Silly.

Sarvis

Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 5049
Location: Buffalo, NY

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject:

Human Shield wrote:

The answer is getting the most benefit with the lowest cost which is what competition does and what is limited by the American regulation system.

Ah the libertarian dream. A world where I could be a doctor travelling from town to town, making money and leaving corpses in my wake since I know nothing about medecine.

Gotta love it!
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Joe Krow

Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1104
Location: Den of stinking evil.

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject:

In America is it more profitable to run a hospital or an insurance company? Who is supposed to be competing here; the doctors, the insurance company, or the patient? So when you have a medical emergency you should immediatly 1) pre-approve your coverage with your insurance 2) call around to various doctors in the area looking for the best price? Compete with who? Hospitals, police, and fire departments are all outside the realm of competition. Don't be an ass. _________________ I like Choice & Consequences because they provide: A. Romance; B. Ending Slide-show; C. Alternative to RPG Mechanics; D. All of the Above

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