Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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Section8
Synaesthete
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 4309
Location: Wardenclyffe
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 Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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:thumbs up:
Sounds good to me, as long as you keep it real.
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| crakkie wrote: | | Multiheaded dick swings and hits you in the ass and leg for 10 points. |
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Slylandro
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Some problems, not all necessarily bugs in the strictest sense:
(1) Disintegrate has a save according to the Arcanum game manual. In the actual game, I've never seen anything save against a distintegrate. I'd check that spell internally if I were you.
(2) I don't know if this counts as a glitch or just bad design, and if it's even fixable, but there's a pitfight on the Isle of Despair and you're not allowed to bring followers. The problem is when you have a familiar (from the highest level summoning spell). IIRC, there is no way to dismiss your familiar for this fight. So what I had to do (rather reluctantly) was walk around in a dangerous dungeon and let my familiar eventually suicide so I could continue the game. Needless to say that wasn't such a great moment. It might be the case that, by design, a familiar can never be dismissed and must always remain at your side. In that case you might have to use your judgment to determine whether the devs would make an exception for this fight or not.
(3) There is a minor glitch in which if you pick a spot on the world map very very close to a city (and don't select the dot representing the city itself), when you finish traveling, you'll get stuck in a building or on a signpost or other parts of the city's structure. It's minor though and probably not easy to fix. It also probably doesn't happen with every city. I know I got something like this to happen for Tarant but Tarant is an exceptional case, being as large as it is.
(4) Your followers will pick up all sorts of ridiculous things if they're close enough, eg boulders. This might not really count as a bug but it's still extremely annoying and unrealistic. I'd hardcode boulders at the least as forbidden. That much I think could count as a bug. |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Slylandro wrote: | Some problems, not all necessarily bugs in the strictest sense:
(1) Disintegrate has a save according to the Arcanum game manual. In the actual game, I've never seen anything save against a distintegrate. I'd check that spell internally if I were you.
(2) I don't know if this counts as a glitch or just bad design, and if it's even fixable, but there's a pitfight on the Isle of Despair and you're not allowed to bring followers. The problem is when you have a familiar (from the highest level summoning spell). IIRC, there is no way to dismiss your familiar for this fight. So what I had to do (rather reluctantly) was walk around in a dangerous dungeon and let my familiar eventually suicide so I could continue the game. Needless to say that wasn't such a great moment. It might be the case that, by design, a familiar can never be dismissed and must always remain at your side. In that case you might have to use your judgment to determine whether the devs would make an exception for this fight or not.
(3) There is a minor glitch in which if you pick a spot on the world map very very close to a city (and don't select the dot representing the city itself), when you finish traveling, you'll get stuck in a building or on a signpost or other parts of the city's structure. It's minor though and probably not easy to fix. It also probably doesn't happen with every city. I know I got something like this to happen for Tarant but Tarant is an exceptional case, being as large as it is.
(4) Your followers will pick up all sorts of ridiculous things if they're close enough, eg boulders. This might not really count as a bug but it's still extremely annoying and unrealistic. I'd hardcode boulders at the least as forbidden. That much I think could count as a bug. |
1) It has a constitution (not willpower) based save. Bolt of Lightning has the same save for example.
2) Did you know that if you hold ALT you can attack your own followers? That way you can kill a familiar. I can program the script to make an exception for familiars, but is it really needed?
3) I had that glitch a few times, sometimes it just sends you in the middle of water. It's very rare though, and can't be fixed without access to the game's source, I'm afraid.
4) OK, I'll put OIF_NO_NPC_PICKUP flag on these boulders. EDIT: DONE.
Last edited by Drog Black Tooth on Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Krancor
Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Make sure to fix the 'balanced sword'. It's ludicrously fast. It's available int he first towna nd it's the best melee weapon in the game.
The tech gadgets in general are in dire need of straightening out, but that is the worst offender. |
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Slylandro
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Krancor wrote: | Make sure to fix the 'balanced sword'. It's ludicrously fast. It's available int he first towna nd it's the best melee weapon in the game.
The tech gadgets in general are in dire need of straightening out, but that is the worst offender. |
I'd argue that is more of a game balance issue than a bug. |
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Dementia Praecox
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1269
Location: The Von Braun, Deck 5
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Unofficial Arcanum Patch (WIP) |
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| Drog Black Tooth wrote: | To put it simply, I'm making a project similar to Co8 of ToEE community. For now, I'm working on it alone, but I welcome any people experienced enough. At any rate, I'm very anal about the content of this patch, I won't allow for powergaming or lulz. Let's just polish the game. | Quote: | | I'm tired of people calling Arcanum one of the buggiest RPGs. |
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I wish I could assist in some way, but I don't know jack shit about anything that could be of any help. 
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skyway: you see there's a retarded emo larping and there's actually a good larping without traditional jedi emo gaming which is rare. |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I've looked into it. In fact, I took 2 or 3 fixes from it, other stuff was just too controversial or poorly implemented, I'd say.
| Ander Vinz wrote: | | I'd like to see hushed revolver and that elven girl you take to Tarant fixed. |
Can you state what's specifically wrong with them? Hushed revolver seems to be missing OWF_SILENT flag, as I see.
Restore to what? These are leftovers of the development. There are also leftovers of old interface and many many other things, eg originally there was a combine skill. It got replaced by technology schematics system, but there's still art for it.
And yes, I'm not going to redo the balance. |
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Slylandro
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
1) It has a constitution (not willpower) based save. Bolt of Lightning has the same save for example.
2) Did you know that if you hold ALT you can attack your own followers? That way you can kill a familiar. I can program the script to make an exception for familiars, but is it really needed?
3) I had that glitch a few times, sometimes it just sends you in the middle of water. It's very rare though, and can't be fixed without access to the game's source, I'm afraid.
4) OK, I'll put OIF_NO_NPC_PICKUP flag on these boulders. |
1) Ok, I think I wasn't clear enough. What I'm saying is that the manual implies that it is possible to resist disintegrate, but in the game, this is either not possible or not possible enough to a reasonable degree. See http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/914155/14033?rec=1360638305 for a fellow gamer's analysis. Notice there-- the save "halves" the damage. Disintegrate deals 30,000 damage before saves. The average end game PC has maybe 200 HP or something. That's definitely unreasonable. My conclusion is that it is very likely a save is supposed to prevent all damage or do something else. Also note, btw, that tech aptitude etc is apparently not taken into account by Disintegrate. Whether this is a bug or is what was intended is ambiguous here and might be up for interpretation unless Tim wants to show up.
2) I don't think it makes any sense to have to kill my own familiar just so I can continue the game. It's not an issue of having to waste time doing it, although that was annoying (I learned the existence of the alt key only on my 2nd playthrough). Familiars, like other followers, gain levels so if you kill your familiar, you'll start with a lower level base template when you summon another one.
3) Yeah I got the water bug once too. Didn't think it was fixable, not a huge issue in either case.
Btw, what tools are you using to make these fixes, out of curiosity? |
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Ander Vinz
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Drog Black Tooth wrote: | | Ander Vinz wrote: | | I'd like to see hushed revolver and that elven girl you take to Tarant fixed. |
Can you state what's specifically wrong with them? Hushed revolver seems to be missing OWF_SILENT flag, as I see. |
For hushed revolver you're right. It's not silent as supposed.
As for "Swyft wants you to bring her to Tarant safely" - I've played many time on different computers and the bug is still in. When I arrive at Tarant the girl goes "thank you, here's your reward, goodbye" but doesn't leave the party. And the only way to get rid of her is to say "fuck you" and break the quest.
| Drog Black Tooth wrote: | | Restore to what? These are leftovers of the development. There are also leftovers of old interface and many many other things, eg originally there was a combine skill. It got replaced by technology schematics system, but there's still art for it. |
Iirc, mechanical dagger and some diy guns. I'll start replaying to be certain.
Last edited by Ander Vinz on Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Slylandro wrote: |
1) Ok, I think I wasn't clear enough. What I'm saying is that the manual implies that it is possible to resist disintegrate, but in the game, this is either not possible or not possible enough to a reasonable degree. See http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/914155/14033?rec=1360638305 for a fellow gamer's analysis. Notice there-- the save "halves" the damage. Disintegrate deals 30,000 damage before saves. The average end game PC has maybe 200 HP or something. That's definitely unreasonable. My conclusion is that it is very likely a save is supposed to prevent all damage or do something else. Also note, btw, that tech aptitude etc is apparently not taken into account by Disintegrate. Whether this is a bug or is what was intended is ambiguous here and might be up for interpretation unless Tim wants to show up. |
It's an instakill type of spell, you see. It was made this way. So, nothing to fix, I'm afraid.
| Slylandro wrote: | | 2) I don't think it makes any sense to have to kill my own familiar just so I can continue the game. |
The Pit Master specifically tells you to be alone. I can change the script to check for a familiar, but will it make sense?
| Slylandro wrote: | | Btw, what tools are you using to make these fixes, out of curiosity? |
Notepad, original ScriptMaker and Hex Editor most of the time. It's easier to hex edit most things directly that to mess with WorldEd. Besides WorldEd is quite limiting, eg it doesn't allow to set most of flags on objects. I had to hexedit OCF2_AUTO_ANIMATES flag on Silver Lady, as it's not possible to set it via WorldEd. |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Ander Vinz wrote: |
For hushed revolver you're right. It's not silent as supposed.
As for "Swyft wants you to bring her to Tarant safely" - I've played many time on different computers and the bug is still in. When I arrive at Tarant the girl goes "thank you, here's your reward, goodbye" but doesn't leave the party. And the only way to get rid of her is to say "fuck you" and break the quest. |
I never had this bug, but I guess there's a possibility that script goes wrong in some cases. I'll look into it. |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of leftovers, I actually plan on fixing the God endings (when you become Dark God, Good God, etc). They were left out most likely due to time constraints. But other stuff is mostly controversial, you see. |
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Ander Vinz
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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You got me wrong. I mean writing about what you've find, ripping off textures, icon, portraits and showing us.
And I remembered one more issue: heartstones. There are only two in game when you need three. One for bedokaan quest [iirc], one for making a key and one for sacrifice. What about adding one more stone? |
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Hümmelgümpf
Formerly known as Lestat
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 2947
Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ander Vinz wrote: | You got me wrong. I mean writing about what you've find, ripping off textures, icon, portraits and showing us.
And I remembered one more issue: heartstones. There are only two in game when you need three. One for bedokaan quest [iirc], one for making a key and one for sacrifice. What about adding one more stone? |
There are more of them. You can find 5 or so in the wilderness near the bedokaan village. |
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Slylandro
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Drog Black Tooth wrote: | | Slylandro wrote: |
1) Ok, I think I wasn't clear enough. What I'm saying is that the manual implies that it is possible to resist disintegrate, but in the game, this is either not possible or not possible enough to a reasonable degree. See http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/914155/14033?rec=1360638305 for a fellow gamer's analysis. Notice there-- the save "halves" the damage. Disintegrate deals 30,000 damage before saves. The average end game PC has maybe 200 HP or something. That's definitely unreasonable. My conclusion is that it is very likely a save is supposed to prevent all damage or do something else. Also note, btw, that tech aptitude etc is apparently not taken into account by Disintegrate. Whether this is a bug or is what was intended is ambiguous here and might be up for interpretation unless Tim wants to show up. |
It's an instakill type of spell, you see. It was made this way. So, nothing to fix, I'm afraid.
| Slylandro wrote: | | 2) I don't think it makes any sense to have to kill my own familiar just so I can continue the game. |
The Pit Master specifically tells you to be alone. I can change the script to check for a familiar, but will it make sense?
| Slylandro wrote: | | Btw, what tools are you using to make these fixes, out of curiosity? |
Notepad, original ScriptMaker and Hex Editor most of the time. It's easier to hex edit most things directly that to mess with WorldEd. Besides WorldEd is quite limiting, eg it doesn't allow to set most of flags on objects. I had to hexedit OCF2_AUTO_ANIMATES flag on Silver Lady, as it's not possible to set it via WorldEd. |
(1) Yes, it is an instakill spell, but that doesn't preclude it having a reasonable save. You have to wonder, if even on save it does 15,000 damage, does it seem likely that this was the intended behavior? Keep in mind that it's not as if all Arcanum damage spells have saves, harm doesn't for example. If they wanted disintegrate to always kill, why bother having a save at all? Given this lack of logic and the inconsistency with the manual (which says you can survive disintegrate, correct me if I'm wrong), I would say it is very likely that Disintegrate has a bug. To me it seems more of a question what is the correct fix than anything. But if this is not a very convincing argument I won't push any further since I'm not the one who has to hex edit the game. 
(2) My preferred solution to this would be to force the familiar to the top, outside ledge of the pit for the duration of the fight (eg let it be a neutral observer that hangs outside the pit) and then let it rejoin the party automatically when the player is completely done (note btw that the familiar does not count towards the party limit so you shouldn't have much error checking to do). If this is not possible, then don't worry about it. I agree that the familiar counts as a separate entity from the caster and that you should have to enter the pit without it. |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Slylandro wrote: | | (1) Yes, it is an instakill spell, but that doesn't preclude it having a reasonable save. You have to wonder, if even on save it does 15,000 damage, does it seem likely that this was the intended behavior? Keep in mind that it's not as if all Arcanum damage spells have saves, harm doesn't for example. If they wanted disintegrate to always kill, why bother having a save at all? Given this lack of logic and the inconsistency with the manual (which says you can survive disintegrate, correct me if I'm wrong), I would say it is very likely that Disintegrate has a bug. To me it seems more of a question what is the correct fix than anything. But if this is not a very convincing argument I won't push any further since I'm not the one who has to hex edit the game. |
Yes, I just checked, a critter with 20 of constitution was instantly killed, no difference. But what do you propose? It's actually strange, you see, a critter can save against Dominate Will for example, if it has high willpower (the spell won't work at all), but it doesn't save against Disintergrate with high constitution. The damage is just too high to save, I guess.
| Quote: | | (2) My preferred solution to this would be to force the familiar to the top, outside ledge of the pit for the duration of the fight (eg let it be a neutral observer that hangs outside the pit) and then let it rejoin the party automatically when the player is completely done (note btw that the familiar does not count towards the party limit so you shouldn't have much error checking to do). If this is not possible, then don't worry about it. I agree that the familiar counts as a separate entity from the caster and that you should have to enter the pit without it. |
The pit is a different map, and when player teleports to different map all his followers do the same. I can add a dialog to familiar, so it can wait outside, but again, does it make sense? I'm not sure, what other people think about this issue? |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ander Vinz wrote: | | You got me wrong. I mean writing about what you've find, ripping off textures, icon, portraits and showing us. |
Oh, now I see what you meant. But, do people actually find these things interesting? I posted a topic about Arcanum Beta a while ago, but not many people were interested in it. |
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Hümmelgümpf
Formerly known as Lestat
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 2947
Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Drog Black Tooth wrote: | | Ander Vinz wrote: | | You got me wrong. I mean writing about what you've find, ripping off textures, icon, portraits and showing us. |
Oh, now I see what you meant. But, do people actually find these things interesting? |
I do. It's always interesting to see stuff that didn't make it in a game for various reasons. |
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Ander Vinz
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Drog Black Tooth wrote: | | Ander Vinz wrote: | | You got me wrong. I mean writing about what you've find, ripping off textures, icon, portraits and showing us. |
Oh, now I see what you meant. But, do people actually find these things interesting? I posted a topic about Arcanum Beta a while ago, but not many people were interested in it. |
Well, there's mostly lulzers here these days but somebody will definitely be interested.
I'm asking because I do. Not much to discuss, anyway and analyzing Troika's legacy is always interesting. So go ahead, share you finds. |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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OK, I have some information on the lost content, I'll post a thread about it some day.
For now, boulders and hushed revolver are fixed! Report more bugs!  |
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Kingston
Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: I lack the wit to put something hilarious here
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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I'd definitely like to know about the content that wasn't added to the final game. I always find those things interesting because usually they are pretty cool.
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| Clockwork Knight wrote: | | We have to keep our good image. Nvm developers just got tired and left, they obviously couldn't take the heat and our powerful arguments like "shit" "sucks" and ":facepalm:" |
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Drog Black Tooth
Master of Arcanum
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of the cut out content, there was one thing that shocked me the most. I think, most of you noticed, that the game actually mirrors sprites of critters and all objects. For example when a critter is facing right it loads the same frame as when it would look left, but mirrored. When I first got the game, I thought that they were just low on space and didn't render those frames. But they actually did... As I looked through all art files, every critter, every object, even goddamn chair has frames for facing all 8 directions. They're just unused. HALF OF THE FRAMES ARE UNUSED. This is so wrong, I almost cried.
Maybe it's connected with crappy optimization of the engine (the game was pretty slow on rigs of its time), but they at least could include the option to switch off sprite mirroring. I wonder, what Leonard Boyarsky has to say about this. |
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