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Ways to battle piracy without screwing the customer?

DiverNB

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
472
First of all, I would ask that we please don't turn this into a pirate vs. anti-pirate thread. There are enough of those here at the Codex, this is a different topic.

I would like to say that the recent trend in getting gamers to not pirate games via limited activations, installations for software that scan your computer, etc. has gotten me quite frustrated. So frustrated, in fact, that it led me to buy the last two games that I can think of (Mass Effect and Bioshock) on my 360, just so I wouldn't have to deal with the shit that comes with their installations. (Glad to see that 2k games gave up on this for Bioshock)

There are companies out there however, that manage to get by without such crappy systems though, yet they still suffer from piracy. I recently ran into a game called Take Command 2: Manassas (Great Civil War strategy game, think along the lines of an upgraded Gettysburgh and Antietam. Best of all, it doesn't need a killer system to run!). I downloaded my copy from Gamers Gate (Digital purchase) and happily played away. After running into a bit of a bug (got it fixed though, needed to patch :oops: ) and visiting the forums, I saw that many players were encountering bugs where they couldn't order units to move.

Curious, I looked inside and saw that it was a anti-pirate feature the devs had put in. You either had to have a Real copy or the specific gamers gate purchase to be able to play the game, or you could not control any units in the game. Cracked EXE's were rendered useless, pirates were foiled, but best of all, paying customers were at extreme ease like the days of old.

I'm not sure if it's just not well known enough to have better crackers go at it, but it seemed like a good system to me. Any other thoughts?
 

JarlFrank

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Sometimes this leads to bad word of mouth for the company as all the guys who pirated it say "This game is so fucking buggy and no patch fixes it!!" while they don't know it's pirated version's fault.
 

Gragt

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DiverNB said:
(Glad to see that 2k games gave up on this for Bioshock)

They did not give it up, they only removed the number limit: you still need an internet connection to activate the game (and download the exe) but you can do it as many times as you want now.
 

DiverNB

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
472
Possibly, but I think game forums are becoming more and more populated so people don't believe everything they're told.

You do have a point though.
 

Erzherzog

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DiverNB said:
I recently ran into a game called Take Command 2: Manassas (Great Civil War strategy game, think along the lines of an upgraded Gettysburgh and Antietam. Best of all, it doesn't need a killer system to run!).

As in Sid Meier's Antietam? I absolutely love that game.
 

Lumpy

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In before 'Piracy is not wrong because nothing is physically removed from an inventory'.
 

Armacalypse

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DiverNB said:
I'm not sure if it's just not well known enough to have better crackers go at it, but it seemed like a good system to me. Any other thoughts?
Crackers neglect games all the time. If the anti-pirate solution was so good as you think every game would use it.
 
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Copied out of the megathread...

1. Go console. Consoles don't have a piracy problem due to limitations built within them, allowing the "blockbuster" model of high cost, high revenue to still function. Plus they are infinitely better suited to the product model of business in games.

2. Go smaller and go off a patronage model. You make the game, and sell it to people with the idea that if people like your work, they'll buy it so you can make more and fulfill their gaming needs. However, this will have to be generally smaller budget operations, as consumers will generally feel pretty apathetic about system like this with a faceless corporation. Probably the right size is one where you could easily chat with a developer via a message board or e-mail. Take a look at Vogel, VD, Wolf Mittag, and Naked Ninja. Those are pretty much what this business model would/should look like. It has consumers like us paying for games because we like the games/ideas developers have and want more of their work. It's like an investment in our "fun future"

3. Go service based. Look at Blizzard. All PC games, all the time, and they don't complain about piracy one lick or have it hurt them. Why? Because they changed their business model to a service based one. You pay a fee to use their online space whether it be a monthly fee in World of Warcraft, or a once-per-different-game fee for a Battle.net access code like with Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo (read: the CD-Key).

4. Go ad-based. Tons of "free-mmos" do this, and so will EA's Battlefield Heroes. A good, free online game is sure to have a lot of players, and with such a high playerbase, companies will likely pay decent money for ad spots.

See, there are alternatives. Companies just can't make "blockbuster" single-player focused PC games anymore.
 

Nutcracker

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Lumpy said:
In before 'Piracy is not wrong because nothing is physically removed from an inventory'.

In before "depriving a corporation of a sale is the same as stealing from them."
 

Depressinator

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Jun 4, 2008
Messages
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All you can do is slow it down.

Aside from having some entity that controls the internet and arrests anyone who is sharing copyrighted materials and can block them all off. The problem with that is then they will have absolute control over the internet for censorship they can exercise at will, which is not something anyone sane would want.

A middle ground would be to close down all sites like piratebay.org and go after people seeding. I'm actually kind of surprised no one has managed that, but then the dutch are amoral nazi sympathizers so they will never cooperate.
 

DiverNB

Liturgist
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Jun 11, 2007
Messages
472
Wolfenstein1942 said:
DiverNB said:
I recently ran into a game called Take Command 2: Manassas (Great Civil War strategy game, think along the lines of an upgraded Gettysburgh and Antietam. Best of all, it doesn't need a killer system to run!).

As in Sid Meier's Antietam? I absolutely love that game.

Yes, very similar. It can get pretty intense fending off other troops trying to hold the line at a fence or high ground. The game takes into account morale, fatigue, ammo, commanders, flanking manuevers, etc. Great game

And I don't think that this games approach is the best or most practical way to go. I'm just saying that I thought it was an interesting solution, as it didn't fuck the customer over, which seems to be the growing trend in anti-piracy measures.
 

ixg

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personally internet authentication seems like the best way to do it right now. I mean most gamers will have internet anyways
 

WalterKinde

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Messages
524
Most but not all.
Best way to beat filesharing, they can't beat piracy which technically is selling a bootleg copy of the game cheaper than the official version.
Is to go the way of stardock, you can get all their games via p2p etc but if you want patches and updates etc it requires an official account/serial number.
Make people see why they should want to purchase your game not bash their heads in on the off chance they might lend the game to a friend or family member. I personally believe these new draconian copy protection methods are not to battle p2p users (since they are always cracked) but to take control away from consumers aka no more second hand sales.
Also if they plan to sell games as a service then it shoul be treated like a service, game publishers that do the whole bioshock/ME thing want to have their cake and eat it too, meaning they sell as a service but want the benefits of it being a stand alone product too.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
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DiverNB said:
Ways to battle piracy without screwing the customer?
Every purchase of a PC game allows the owner to gets a free hour with a hooker provided they show the legit box.

Oh, you meant without screwing the customer. My bad.

DiverNB said:
Curious, I looked inside and saw that it was a anti-pirate feature the devs had put in. You either had to have a Real copy or the specific gamers gate purchase to be able to play the game, or you could not control any units in the game. Cracked EXE's were rendered useless, pirates were foiled, but best of all, paying customers were at extreme ease like the days of old.

I'm not sure if it's just not well known enough to have better crackers go at it, but it seemed like a good system to me. Any other thoughts?
You missed that other thread about the Titan Quest developers, didn't you?
 

Helton

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Ways to battle piracy without screwing the customer?

Stop cutting corners and treat the customer well, breeding loyalty and good will. A good approach which does that and gives immediate incentive to buy rather than pirate is to actually package tangible goodies with your game. Well written manuals, maps, ect.
 

Korgan

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
Copied out of the megathread...

2. Go smaller and go off a patronage model. You make the game, and sell it to people with the idea that if people like your work, they'll buy it so you can make more and fulfill their gaming needs. However, this will have to be generally smaller budget operations, as consumers will generally feel pretty apathetic about system like this with a faceless corporation. Probably the right size is one where you could easily chat with a developer via a message board or e-mail. Take a look at Vogel, VD, Wolf Mittag, and Naked Ninja. Those are pretty much what this business model would/should look like. It has consumers like us paying for games because we like the games/ideas developers have and want more of their work. It's like an investment in our "fun future"

3. Go service based. Look at Blizzard. All PC games, all the time, and they don't complain about piracy one lick or have it hurt them. Why? Because they changed their business model to a service based one. You pay a fee to use their online space whether it be a monthly fee in World of Warcraft, or a once-per-different-game fee for a Battle.net access code like with Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo (read: the CD-Key).

4. Go ad-based. Tons of "free-mmos" do this, and so will EA's Battlefield Heroes. A good, free online game is sure to have a lot of players, and with such a high playerbase, companies will likely pay decent money for ad spots.

See, there are alternatives. Companies just can't make "blockbuster" single-player focused PC games anymore.

My thoughts exactly. As for introducing hidden bugs that only hurt pirates... obviously none of you have ever been on the wrong end of such a measure. Living somewhere in the asshole of the world and trying to obtain a working copy of Dominions 3 (without a credit card and a free $60-70 for the game + S&H) made me hate the publisher and the devs (who keep refusing to sell online, saying that they don't care and the game sells "well enough") so much that I won't ever buy anything else by them just out of spite. My feelings are shared by everyone else playing it in Russia. Fortunately, one of those folks is a decent cracker :)
 

Xi

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Jan 28, 2006
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Twilight Zone
I keep seeing people talk about "Loyalty" and "treating your customer right," but I cannot help to think that these methods will do nothing to change the methods of people who act amorally in the first place. Obviously, those things go without saying, but to think that they are the be-all end-all way to cut back on piracy is, naive. It would hardly work, and as a matter of fact, it was the first way that companies conducted themselves, and piracy still took off and became what it is today.

When people say that DRM fuels piracy I just don't connect with that notion either. To me, piracy exists because there is no immediate consequence for downloading a game. This is the central way in which developers should attack the issue. Extremely strict DRM, like Mass Effect - or securom in general, fails beyond day-zero because it's crackable and there's no other way to verify that the games are legit after that. So the obvious way to force people to purchase your game if they want to play, is to offer a service in which a multi-player component won't work unless they purchase, alongside news, updates, and basically a community.

Certainly you also need a good game if it's going to sell too, but add in some type of service and it seems like people are enticed to buy the game because after the demo them via piracy, they will want to take full advantage of the extra features, if those features are fleshed out enough. Diablo 2 is a great example. A lot of pirates converted to sales because the multi-player closed battle.net portion was so enticing and fun. In fact, I would wager that a lot of the people who played D2 did so via battle.net. So, the extra service converted sales in this case, and it was not necessarily intrusive to the customer. They could still play the standalone product without internet.

I wonder how well Guildwars has sold do to its free MMO type of gameplay? You essentially cannot pirate the game, but you also get a free MMO service if you purchase. Than, you also get a return customer when you release expansions, alongside a way to pay for continuing bandwidth costs. Seems like it was a pretty awesome way to do it, and how many expansions have they released since? Pretty sure it's been rather profitable, and it forces pirates to convert with it's free service.

http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/15886/982211/BanKs/
The Guild Wars franchise, one of the most popular life-stealing MMO bastards out there, has hit five million copies sold.

Released in April 2005, the game has since had three expansions: Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall and Guild Wars: Eye of the North, and the development of Guild Wars 2 is underway.

"Guild Wars is a proven success and has set a new standard for online RPG games with its unique business model and superior playability," said NCsoft CEO Taek Jin Kim. "This success has built a great foundation from which the next generation of Guild Wars games will grow."

Anyway, service seems like the best option as many games have already proven. Guild wars being a great example. If guild wars had no MMO online component(Just simple Multi-player), and no DRM(Or really shitty DRM), would it have sold as well? I say no.

So essentially, you add in consequence. The consequence for pirating is that you miss out on the service side of the game, which is better than the standalone product. Choice/Consequence. Hah!
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Blizzard is also a great example of a company that treats it's customers well and doesn't release crappy generic sequels to cash in asap. They're in it for the long haul and have a good rep. Beth (and most other companies) may have a legion of fans weaned on FF7 drooling over the awesome open world of Oblivion, but they've also got a lot of angry cunts besides us who don't trust them anymore.

This has been mentioned before here probably, but Warcraft 3 no longer requires the CD in the machine to play. They just added that in a patch. I'm curious to see if this policy carries into Starcraft 2, either immediately or at least within a year of release. They certainly won't be adding in any activation crippleware rent you the game scams.

As for any constructive ideas... I'd say frequent added content after release would be a good way to do it. Sort of like buying the game gives you a free subscription to added content for a year or so, after which the game has basically all the content and patching it's going to get- and all the sales as well. Yeah, at this point it'll all be put in a nice convienent bundle for torrent, but you really only need to convince people to buy the game for the first month or so anyways. Of course, most companies would likely promise crap they'll never deliver instead.
 

Shannow

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DarkUnderlord said:
You missed that other thread about the Titan Quest developers, didn't you?

FGI:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23101


And to summarize:
Don't expect to sell millions of copies and adjust the budget accordingly.
Don't produce games for target demographics. And if you do don't produce them for the most common pirate demographic (probably 12 - 25, male).
Declare your anti-piracy policies on the box and in interviews, etc.
Support your paying customers instead of fighting pirates (e.g like CDproject, Stardock).
Do an mmo. Use advertisments for financing.
Required online registration for offline games and restriction of installments is stupid and useless.
 

pkt-zer0

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Messages
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Edward_R_Murrow said:
1. Go console. Consoles don't have a piracy problem due to limitations built within them, allowing the "blockbuster" model of high cost, high revenue to still function. Plus they are infinitely better suited to the product model of business in games.

2. Go smaller and go off a patronage model. You make the game, and sell it to people with the idea that if people like your work, they'll buy it so you can make more and fulfill their gaming needs. However, this will have to be generally smaller budget operations, as consumers will generally feel pretty apathetic about system like this with a faceless corporation. Probably the right size is one where you could easily chat with a developer via a message board or e-mail. Take a look at Vogel, VD, Wolf Mittag, and Naked Ninja. Those are pretty much what this business model would/should look like. It has consumers like us paying for games because we like the games/ideas developers have and want more of their work. It's like an investment in our "fun future"

3. Go service based. Look at Blizzard. All PC games, all the time, and they don't complain about piracy one lick or have it hurt them. Why? Because they changed their business model to a service based one. You pay a fee to use their online space whether it be a monthly fee in World of Warcraft, or a once-per-different-game fee for a Battle.net access code like with Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo (read: the CD-Key).

4. Go ad-based. Tons of "free-mmos" do this, and so will EA's Battlefield Heroes. A good, free online game is sure to have a lot of players, and with such a high playerbase, companies will likely pay decent money for ad spots.

See, there are alternatives. Companies just can't make "blockbuster" single-player focused PC games anymore.

What he said.

Though I'd think that Starcraft's / Warcraft's sales in the most part don't come from online players - 10 million online players in the case of the former seems a bit of stretch.
 

Jasede

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About "Go console" - my roommate has a PS 2, modded, Everyone of his friends does too. In my university I met -four- people who did not mod-chip their console and exclusively play games they burned and downloaded from the internet. Now, this is college students- but it's likely just a matter of time until everyone does this, or rather, as many as use file-sharing. You don't even need a chip, there's special CDs for the PS 2 that do something with the bios so you can run everything!
 

DiverNB

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
472
I agree with Jasede, going with consoles isn't as safe as it used to be and it's going the router of PC piracy. It's quite simple to install a mod chip in a 360 or PS2 or whatever, or hell, worst case scenario, someone does it for you for 60 bucks.

I read the Titan Quest article a while ago. I read Stardocks answer to that article long ago as well, and while I do believe targeting you audience is important, if everyone decides not to target that audience anymore, whose going to make those games?

It would be rather interesting to see FPS's and other such 12-25 y/o games just disappear for a while, have gaming go back to being a much smaller following, and have a reboot of the entire industry. The chances of that happening though are slim to none.
 

Kraszu

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Messages
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Xi said:
When people say that DRM fuels piracy I just don't connect with that notion either. To me, piracy exists because there is no immediate consequence for downloading a game.

Just becouse it fuel it, it does not mean that it the primary reason. You get very back-white on that topic.

Xi said:
This is the central way in which developers should attack the issue. Extremely strict DRM, like Mass Effect - or securom in general, fails beyond day-zero because it's crackable and there's no other way to verify that the games are legit after that. So the obvious way to force people to purchase your game if they want to play, is to offer a service in which a multi-player component won't work unless they purchase, alongside news, updates, and basically a community.

Online is a diferent matter, patches are also cracked but you can make it less annoying for legal buyers to get patch then for others, access to forums mods and so on could also be done. Sure that can be pirated also but it would be harder to find then the game itself. Any protection that makes playing more annoying for legal customers do the opposite.

Xi said:
Certainly you also need a good game if it's going to sell too, but add in some type of service and it seems like people are enticed to buy the game because after the demo them via piracy, they will want to take full advantage of the extra features, if those features are fleshed out enough. Diablo 2 is a great example. A lot of pirates converted to sales because the multi-player closed battle.net portion was so enticing and fun. In fact, I would wager that a lot of the people who played D2 did so via battle.net. So, the extra service converted sales in this case, and it was not necessarily intrusive to the customer. They could still play the standalone product without internet.

BN is good not all games are made for mp through, and thinking that you can force pirates to connect to stream when playing sp game is atrocious. Technically impossibole you can protect what you have on your own servers, and access to it not what can be done whit data that you gave.

So yeah basically for most part I agree whit you. I through that it would be diferent when I started to writing the response.

You can't also use retail USA NPD as some prove of piracy. First of all there is no good reason to think that piracy had increased in last 2 years, USA market just shifted more towards consoles then before as you can see by more copies sold on those, and you can't explain it whit piracy either. There are also good reason to think that retail sales reflect less and less the reality. Also copy sold on-line is worth more for developer then one that is sold in shop.
 

1234

Novice
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
18
How to stop piracy? Make better games and get involved with the community.

The third thing depends on how you're going at this. If you're in it for the money, hire a good PR guy. If you're in it for the love of games, then don't waste money on expensive voice actors or E3 presentations.
 

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