Editorial Alpha Protocol - Delivering on the Promise

Jason · Jun 26, 2010

Tags: Alpha Protocol; Obsidian Entertainment

Escapist columnist and possible undercover Codexer <a href="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=8502" target="_blank">Shamus Young</a> believes that Obsidian can teach the RPG big dogs a little something about <a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7760-Experienced-Points-Alpha-Overhaul" target="_blank">meaningful choices and consequences</a>.
<blockquote>But Obsidian is taking another approach entirely, and for me it's really paying off. Unlike Fallout 3 or Oblivion, you can't choose to be a bad guy. Unlike Dragon Age and Mass Effect, you can't always say exactly what you want or noodle around in a dialog tree to your heart's content. But what the game does give you is fun and meaningful choices. These choices do propagate to the rest of the world and they do matter. If you're used to playing a renegade type of character you might be in for a shock when mouthing off to powerful people and sucker-punching jerks comes back to haunt you later. If your playstyle leans towards the paladin end of the spectrum, then you might learn a little lesson in pragmatism when sparing the life of an enemy means they might come back to give you a wedgie in a subsequent mission. Some choices are clear, and others aren't, but after the first few decisions you'll come to appreciate being able to change the game in meaningful ways. Sometimes a choice can turn a boss fight into a conversation. Or save the life of an ally. None of the decisions follow the cheap formula of "do you want the money and the bad karma or do your want to make some trivial sacrifice as a down payment on your halo?"</blockquote>

ScottishMartialArts · Jun 26, 2010

This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.

Azrael the cat · Jun 26, 2010

ScottishMartialArts said:
This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.[/quote

Agreed.

Raghar · Jun 26, 2010

ScottishMartialArts said:
This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.

Poison Branko's drugs, or not. Recommend Steven Hack something and make him happy, or not.

The only real consequence is when you decided to be truthful to her at the end, or tried to lie her... And yes the choice that decided who would be at School days like boat with you at the end.

MetalCraze · Jun 26, 2010

ScottishMartialArts said:
This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.

Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

Roguey · Jun 26, 2010

BioWare takes a different approach and seems to offer you more meaningful freedom, although once you're wise to their tricks (or you replay the game again later) you can see that a lot of your choices were illusions. They also offer a lot of different dialog choices that express different views but all ultimately lead to the same conclusion at the end of the conversation. I'm really strongly in favor of this sort of thing (a big part of roleplaying is being able to play your character)

I'm amazed whenever I find out people actually like this, I find meaningless flavor options tedious and unnecessary. Alpha Protocol doesn't have as much as a Bioware title but still too many as it is.

Konjad · Jun 26, 2010

MetalCraze said:
ScottishMartialArts said:

This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.

Click to expand...

Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

But it's old and graphic sux therefore we don't care. AP is new! How dumb u can get skyway? U play old games? looololol

Visbhume · Jun 26, 2010

It's funny that people point to Fallout in order to shame AP's presumed failings. Fallout's combat was sort of tiresome to be honest, certainly not its strong point.

Edit: the same can be said of Torment, Ultima VII and Arcanum. It seems to be almost a requirement.

Konjad · Jun 26, 2010

Visbhume said:
It's funny that people point to Fallout in order to shame AP's presumed failings. Fallout's combat was sort of tiresome to be honest, certainly not its strong point.

Edit: the same can be said of Torment, Ultima VII and Arcanum. It seems to be almost a requirement.

Like combat is the most important thing in cRPGs...

KalosKagathos · Jun 26, 2010

MetalCraze said:
Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

I did. It has less than AP, despite being a better RPG. Funny shit.

Konjad said:
Like combat is the most important thing in cRPGs...

The way combat is done defines the game is an RPG at all, so yeah, it's pretty fucking important.

VentilatorOfDoom · Jun 26, 2010

KalosKagathos said:
MetalCraze said:

Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

Click to expand...

I did. It has less than AP, despite being a better RPG. Funny shit.

Konjad said:

Like combat is the most important thing in cRPGs...

Click to expand...

The way combat is done defines the game is an RPG at all, so yeah, it's pretty fucking important.

And the way combat is done defines AP as... RPG?

Mangoose · Jun 26, 2010

VentilatorOfDoom said:
KalosKagathos said:

MetalCraze said:

Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

Click to expand...

I did. It has less than AP, despite being a better RPG. Funny shit.

Konjad said:

Like combat is the most important thing in cRPGs...

Click to expand...

The way combat is done defines the game is an RPG at all, so yeah, it's pretty fucking important.

Click to expand...

And the way combat is done defines AP as... RPG?

Somewhat, actually. You need to put in skill points in weapons and etc to become effective with them (except for Assault Rifles, but that's a balance issue). Everyone complains about the overpoweredness of Chain Shot, but you don't get Chain Shot unless you put points in Pistols.

Visbhume · Jun 26, 2010

The nebulous quality that we call choice & consequence could be understood as a sort of narrative-oriented metagame built upon more basic gameplay mechanics (stealth in AP, FPS in Mass Effect, turn-based combat in Fallout, and so on).

A game's underlying gameplay can be pedestrian but if the C&C is good it may still be worth it. Specially considering that decent implementations of the underlying gameplay may be comparatively abundant, while meaningful C&C is hard to find nowadays.

KalosKagathos · Jun 26, 2010

VentilatorOfDoom said:
And the way combat is done defines AP as... RPG?

As an action/RPG, hence why I said that Fallout is a better RPG.

Clockwork Knight · Jun 26, 2010

Re: Re

ironyuri said:
Enjoyment of Fallout and enjoyment of Alpha Protocol are not mutually exclusive.

But then we wouldn't have anything to argue about. Are you trying to destroy this family?

MetalCraze · Jun 26, 2010

Visbhume said:
It's funny that people point to Fallout in order to shame AP's presumed failings. Fallout's combat was sort of tiresome to be honest, certainly not its strong point.

There is nothing worse than AP combat. Even ME2 did it better.
So ya, AP fails at everything.

But note that combat is not what my quote was about.

Vault Dweller · Jun 26, 2010

ScottishMartialArts said:
This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.

I'm afraid it can be. The C&C "engine" is superb (it's a great model to follow), but the extreme linearity (and I thought that Bloodlines was bad in that area) and the mission structure, which cuts off the world and takes away your ability to make decisions outside of missions, waste that potential.

I've just finished the game. If I replay it now I will be able to make many different choices but I'll still end up playing exactly the same game and doing exactly the same shit, but some cutscenes will be different.

Alpha Protocol C&C do a great job creating a set of different mission summaries, but unfortunately they barely affect the actual gameplay, which isn't that enjoyable to begin with.

dragonfk · Jun 26, 2010

MetalCraze said:
Visbhume said:

It's funny that people point to Fallout in order to shame AP's presumed failings. Fallout's combat was sort of tiresome to be honest, certainly not its strong point.

Click to expand...

There is nothing worse than AP combat. Even ME2 did it better.
So ya, AP fails at everything.

But note that combat is not what my quote was about.

And here I was thinking you didn't touch that Bioware shit.

I've finished AP few days ago. I was playing a techie build with a specialization in Assault Rifles, highest difficulty. The only really bitchy fight was with that Russian mobster. F*** he was tough enemy. Others were sometimes hard but enjoyable. As for comparison with ME2. AP has much better combat. Enemies use grenades(which is an enormous plus - there's nothing as adrenalin injecting as seeing a grenade landing beside your alter ego), when you cover and camp the ones with shotguns tend to close in range, making random jump to the sides making difficult to shoot them. AI may not be state of art, but it's functional. Sometimes, when you sneak it may do stupid things due to bugs or bad programming, but it still is better thn ME2 cause in the latter there was no sneaking.

Vault Dweller · Jun 26, 2010

KalosKagathos said:
MetalCraze said:

Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

Click to expand...

I did. It has less than AP, despite being a better RPG. Funny shit.

Bullshit.

Visbhume said:
It's funny that people point to Fallout in order to shame AP's presumed failings. Fallout's combat was sort of tiresome to be honest...

Unlike Alpha Protocol's. Can't get enough of it.

Mangoose said:
Everyone complains about the overpoweredness of Chain Shot, but you don't get Chain Shot unless you put points in Pistols.

That's deep, bro. I've never thought of it this way.

MetalCraze said:
ScottishMartialArts said:

This much is true. AP has a lot of problem, but in terms of C&C, it really can't be beat.

Click to expand...

Except it has none. Ever heard of Fallout?

Brother! It's time to set aside our differences and purge these forums from the intellectually unclean.

MetalCraze · Jun 26, 2010

There is no sneaking in AP either.There is a "make AI extremely dumb" button. Because there is absolutely no difference between what you do with that cheat off and with that cheat on - just like in Oblivion.
Apart from a very laughable animation of course.

But yeah the combat is awful - in ME the retarded console unlockables do not affect your targeting reticle as hard as they do in AP. Nothing ruins shooter so much as pseudo-"RPG" elements that are there for the sake of them being there. And critical hits - I still don't understand how holding a gun pointed at the enemy for 3-5 seconds increases its damage and precision.

And let's not go into AP boss fights. Even without a question why childish anime characters, created by some 15 years old, have mobs following them - boss fights are very consolish with bosses taking hundreds of bullets and almost look like it's another minigame.

dragonfk said:
The only really bitchy fight was with that Russian mobster

Especially this one. No seriously what the fuck is this shit? It isn't even bad. It's beyond awful. What retard did this design? Kojima should probably take lessons at how bad you can do anime shit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRojSYNg7k0

AI may not be state of art, but it's functional

You call a blind and deaf AI that can only follow the will of linear scripts functional?

dragonfk · Jun 26, 2010

MetalCraze said:
There is no sneaking in AP either.There is a "make AI extremely dumb" button. Because there is absolutely no difference between what you do with that cheat off and with that cheat on - just like in Oblivion.
Apart from a very laughable animation of course.

But yeah the combat is awful - in ME the retarded console unlockables do not affect your targeting reticle as hard as they do in AP. Nothing ruins shooter so much as pseudo-"RPG" elements that are there for the sake of them being there. And critical hits - I still don't understand how holding a gun pointed at the enemy for 3-5 seconds increases its damage and precision.

And let's not go into AP boss fights. Even without a question why childish anime characters, created by some 15 years old, have mobs following them - boss fights are very consolish with bosses taking hundreds of bullets and almost look like it's another minigame.

AI may not be state of art, but it's functional

Click to expand...

You call a blind and deaf AI that can only follow the will of linear scripts functional?

As far as stealth goes I had no points in the skill, so every time I used it(and I used it often) it was very exciting, cause even slight error in timing could uncover me to the AI. So probably, just probably AP would be a better game without "stealth" skill entirely. As far as bosses fight I agree they were no fun, but the slaughtering of common enemies, could be and was fun. Though I must admit that I heavily relied on tech stuff. Mines, grenades in corridors, paralizers, flashbanks. It was fun and it offered so much more than ME2. As far as shooting goes, Deus Ex was the same in this regard and I don't recall people being so butthurt over it. I surely am not a specialist in firearms, but I had brief experience with them and careful aiming helps a bunch in shooting anything farther than few meters ahead.

PS. AI hasn't change much in regard of stealth for a very long time. I'm finishing my playthrough of VtM:B and it makes me wanna laugh when I stand before my enemies and they can't see me even though they are looking for me( and I have sneaking only on 7th lvl being a Venture).

Clockwork Knight · Jun 26, 2010

MetalCraze said:
There is no sneaking in AP either.There is a "make AI extremely dumb" button. Because there is absolutely no difference between what you do with that cheat off and with that cheat on - just like in Oblivion.

Metalcraze said:
What about dumbed down "stealth" - whereas in Oblivion you still had to stay undetected - here some magic just makes you invisible while you -run- and make other noises (like killing enemies)

MetalCraze · Jun 26, 2010

As far as shooting goes, Deus Ex was the same in this regard and I don't recall people being so butthurt over it

Actually DX was and is criticized for it having a clunky shooting part. It wasn't a big problem simply because DX offered so much in terms of non-combat gameplay - like fully open levels or at least levels with alternative paths where character skills could be applied to unlock them/avoid combat.
In AP you are forced to fight in linear corridors and combat isn't fun

PS. AI hasn't change much in regard of stealth for a very long time. I'm finishing my playthrough of VtM:B and it makes me wanna laugh when I stand before my enemies and they can't see me even though they are looking for me( and I have sneaking only on 7th lvl being a Venture).

VtmB isn't a good example either. But at least it has lighting affecting enemy vision.

What stopped Obsidian from making it like in Splinter Cell at least? I mean SC isn't too complex when it comes to stealth either but it had just enough to offer in terms of it.
But not even that - with it being a "spy" setting, although right from some anime with childish conspiracies - there could've been so many possibilities to do a Hitman/Bourne "social" kind of stealth.

But eh it's silly to expect something good from Obsidian today, they absolutely lack talent and are too lazy to do better than 8 years old games.

Darth Roxor · Jun 26, 2010

MetalCraze said:
VtmB isn't a good example either. But at least it has lighting affecting enemy vision.

And no invisibility spells, eh?

:smug:

denizsi · Jun 26, 2010

I'm with skyway on this. Alpha Turd is as shallow and boring as it can possibly get. About the only thing I enjoyed is that the game was short enough so you could finish the game several times in a week to see most if not all angles.

The game has absolutely no redeeming qualities to ever make me want to play again in future once you're through with it, unlike other good games like Fallout, DX, Bloodlines, Wasteland etc.. I played it several times because I'm OC, have satiated my OCD by seeing most everything the game has to offer and now I'm glad it's over. I can't even imagine to play it again in future. There's nothing to enjoy. Stupid writing, stupid missions, stupid game mechanics. Shallow story. It's such a boring, empty game.

It's just that it's simply NOT a terribly bad game like most other shit and is actually good as far as the "RP" of G goes.

I've said this before: Alpha Protocol is a true testament to that CnC doesn't make an RPG.

VentilatorOfDoom · Jun 26, 2010

well an invis spell can surely be easier justified in a VTM game, no?

I don't even try to go into too much detail, like lighting etc, but the big problem for me with AP stealth was that it was incomplete as a way to achieve your goals. Having experienced the combat it occured to me that the stealth route was the only one worth taking, and the game just wouldn't let you COMPLETE a mission the stealth way. There are exceptions of course, like infiltrating the CIA building. But at other times you're presented with stupid design like in the ruins mission in Rome where you have to protect the device, a device no one gives a shit about on top of that, because it's not as if any of the goons tried to deactivate it. How often did you have the possibility during a mission to do something creative to reach an objective? And with creative I mean something other than take down everyone/avoid everyone with your stealth spells. I can only think of one instance during the hotel mission in Taipeh. Other than that all missions are the same, move thru the area, click on the icons that indicate *Click here to climb ladder* or something similar and take down everyone in the process. If you like AP combat I can see how you like the game as a whole, since combat is 95% of it and you get the C&C on top. If you hate* AP combat & the mission design then no amount of C&C can make up for it, at least not for me.

* there is no actual hatred involved, it just doesn't appeal to me

KalosKagathos · Jun 26, 2010

Vault Dweller said:
Bullshit.

Stop the lies, start the truths. Here's a list of Fallout C&C that my bro Fat Dragon compiled for me:

Fat Dragon said:
1. Everyone knows about the water merchant example.
2. The Ghouls in Necropolis will eventually be murdered by the Super Mutants if you take too long to go there to help them.
3. Killing children = bounty hunters come after you.
4. Choose not to put your weapons away when a guard tells you to, he'll punish you bad for being a smartass.
5. If you're not careful with what you say to people you can royally piss them off without a chance to apologize, which can cut you off from quests, get fights started, etc. Eg, saying you want to join the Khans but then pussing out when he tells you to murder the two girls will anger Garl and he'll order to have you killed, getting caught lying by Aradesh makes him lose all trust in you and kick you out of the village, etc.
6. Choosing to go into the Glow unprepared. Even better if you save right after that. I've lost count of how many times I've read of someone screwing themselves completely there.
7. The game allows you to kill anyone you don't like at anytime you please, at the risk of fucking things up, including quests.
8. If you try to cut corners with Decker's jobs instead of doing them exactly how he asked, he'll get pissed which means he either orders his gang on you or cuts you off from his other jobs (can't remember which).
9. Doing the Loneshark quest before talking to Kane permanently cuts you off from Decker's quests since you end up pissing Kane off.
10. Killing Neal gets the entire police force hunting you down.
11. Wiping out the Khans early avoids Tandi ever getting kidnapped and you lose that quest.
12. Killing Razor pisses of the Gun Runners faction, preventing you from doing business with them.

Probably a few others I missed, haven't played Fallout in quite a while.

He probably did miss a few, but since some points on his list are pure bullshit (using only one save slot and getting stuck because of it = C&C) it should even out. AP easily tops all that.

Editorial Alpha Protocol - Delivering on the Promise

chasing a bee

Self-Ejected

Arcane

Arcane

Arcane

Codex Staff

⛏

Prophet

⛏

Learned

Administrator

Arcane

Prophet

Learned

Arcane

Arcane

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Arcane

Erudite

Arcane

Arcane

Royal Dongsmith

Arcane

Administrator

Learned