Poll time! Why do you like Fallout so much?

[Excidium]

Re: re

and they both have relatively terrible looking graphics (and I don't mean art - Arcanum had beautiful and detailed item art).

Fallout has sweet graphics, especially today, I prefer 2d especially in Fallout style and to me not much looks better, sure could be improved I guess like Fallout Tactics, but 2D isometric fucking rules.

This brings up something that always confused me with Arcanum, I was slobbering all over it from the moment I heard about it, desperately waiting for it to come out and looking at screenshots I just thought it looked a bit crappy, why couldn't they just make it look as good as fallout? But it'll still be sweet I thought, and fantasy done right where I can shoot some gay elf in the face, but wait... tech users fucking suck, and even if they didn't the combat is so god damn shit that even if my gun rocked it doesn't matter because the combat plays out so awkwardly theres no pleasure in it at all. Then it would crash.

None of the dialogue especially early on drew me in to the game world, taking enjoyment out of all transactions, quests and exploration. Though talking to Virgil as an idiot was pretty funny. As a retarded Fallout fanboy eagerly awaiting what would could be its creators latest and greatest masterpiece I was let down in every department, it didn't have to completely live up to Fallout, but it wasn't even a decent game god dammit.

In recent years I've tried to go back repeatedly but just can't get past the GAMEPLAY, it fucking sucks, not just combat but all of it. C&C are not all of it, a fucking flow chart 1 mile long isn't worth shit when your whole game sucks.

In short:
Arcanums graphics are fucking shit, both in quality and art directions. I never understood how it could be technically proficient but just look so damn crap(and my god the animations)
The combat is beyond shit though everyone knows this
The whole world is bland and boring as hell, and thus most of the the quests and dialogue are
And its character system is pretty crap too.

Fallouts graphics are fucking awesome
The combat is not the best, but good and very satisfying, love the animations too
Cool world to explore, good dialogue\quests\characters
SPECIAL system is good, progress is well balanced but feels significant every level, like you can notice levels difference while in that enjoyable combat.

Fallout just does it all right and is actually fun to play, Arcanum just has god awful gameplay, which I think is pretty critical in a.... game

What he said.

ditto

Pretty much.

 

[Sodomy]

As many before me have said, it's impossible to single out one element that makes FO stand out; a large part of why it's special is that it's so damn solid all-around.

But there is ONE key element where it absolutely slaughters Arcanum, (or, indeed, nearly any other RPG) that's not in your poll: goal structuring.

In Arcanum, the main quest goals are laid out nicely for you. Hell, it even tells you what the next step is on the "load game" screen. In any game of Arcanum you WILL:
-Find Ristezee's shop, and find out who the ring belongs to.
-Do the Schulyer's and Son's dungeon.
-Get access to Gilbert Bates
-Go to the BMC
-Fight your way through the BMC/Run from everything in the BMC. Curse the BMC. Repeatedly. Talk to guy at the end of the BMC
-Go back to Bates
-Talk to Sailor who can take you to the Isle of Despair
-Go to the Isle of Despair
-Get the wheel clan specs
-Go to the wheel clan
-Talk to Loghaire
-Go to Stillwater to find the location of Quintarra
-Go to Quintarra
-Find out about Raven's ex boyfriend
-Find Raven's ex boyfriend's book to find the location of Min'Gorad
-Go to Min'Gorad. Here you have your first choice; you either kill the dark elf bitch and return to Quintarra, or you kill everyone in Stillwater. Either way, you head to the Caladon temple next.
-Do the dungeon underneath the temple.
-Go to Nasrudin's real final resting place If you attack Nasrudin, you skip the few next steps, so we'll jump to the next mandatory part.
-Go to the void. Fight a bunch of d00ds. Choose which ending you want.

That's a whole bunch of mandatory steps that must be done in order. Like a line. Some people may even call it linear (see what I did there?). There are multiple ways to do many of those steps (for instance, to find out where Quintarra is, you can do the Stillwater Giant quest, or you can kill that uppity elf and use the "call spirit" spell to force the information out of his dead body), but you're doing ALL of those things.

Lets compare to Fallout now. Without having metagame knowledge, there are three areas you need to visit, order does not matter:
-Necropolis
-Military Base
-Cathedral
(with metagame knowledge, you can obviously skip Necropolis)
Ways to find Necropolis:
1. Talk to the librarian. Buy the holodisk from her. Wander the wastes in the general area the holodisk suggests until you run across it.
2. The dead mutant near the Deathclaw.
3. Random encounter with the Minstrel.
4. Caravans.

Ways to find the Cathedral:
1. Brotherhood of Steel.
2. Followers of the Apocalypse in the Boneyard
3. Computer in the Military Base
4. Random encounter with Patrick

Ways to find the Military Base:
1. Brotherhood of Steel
2. Multiple ways from the Cathedral
3. Computer in the Glow
4. Random encounter with Patrick
5. Learn general area from Harold, wander the wastes until you find it.
6. Ask Harry to take you to his leader

Notice how, unlike Arcanum, none of these are tied to a single NPC, quest, or item. THIS is where Fallout really shines, and beats damn near any other RPG ever; the only ones I've ever played that can compete in this regard are the first 2 Geneforge games.

 

[Fez]

You're not being entirely fair with the comparison there, but I understand what you are saying.

 

[Sodomy]

You're not being entirely fair with the comparison there, but I understand what you are saying.

In what manner would you say I'm being unfair? Are their options for skipping those steps in Arcanum that I don't know about? It's not a possibility that I would completely discount, given that I've only played it to completion 3 times, and gotten deep into it but not completed twice, but I would be interested in knowing.

Alternatively, in what way are any of the alternative Fallout location solutions invalid? If you mean the "wander the wastes" solutions, that's actually how I found Necropolis on my first playthrough.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I agree about the goal structure in Fallout. It's one of the things that makes it so re-playable and doesn't force the player to go to horrible places like BMC.
Also, it's much shorter.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

I like pretty much everything about Fallout, from the setting and art direction to story and combat and the way c&c are handled. Also, it has the optimal length -- every moment spent playing it was fun.

Arcanum, on the other hand, is a good blueprint for what could have been a great game, but in itself it sucks. It has sub-par dragged out combat that gets crammed down your throat (the horrific random encounters), is so unbalanced as to take all the fun out of levelling and trying out different character builds, is large but at the cost of being full of boring areas and trite sidequests, has c&c galore but the story is so bland and generic it's hard to even pretend you care. By far my least favourite of the classic RPGs.

 

[The Ninth Circle]

What makes us who we are? The choices we've made over our lifetime, as well as the choices of others that have altered our lives. Story goes hand in hand though as it's progress is how you determine the effect of your actions. The better the story is implemented, the greater you feel your hand is altering the world around you. Though, a living, breathing world would possibly be more important than story as the world itself is the story.All too often the PC is the "savior" of everyone from the princess and king to the lady wanting to pick up a loaf of bread from the local merchant. The world should progress itself without the PC's input as well. This, to me, is the perfect storm. A world where you are seemingly insignificant in the big picture, but certain actions you've taken can shake up the world drastically.

Good combat is a nice addition, but I'd actually like an RPG where the combat is used as a last resort and certainly not the focal point. A modern time RPG would be the perfect setting due to the lethality of firearms.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Notice how, unlike Arcanum, none of these are tied to a single NPC, quest, or item. THIS is where Fallout really shines, and beats damn near any other RPG ever; the only ones I've ever played that can compete in this regard are the first 2 Geneforge games.

My problem was that they didnt feed you enough rationale to make you want to explore the Necropolis

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

What about the Water Merchants talking about how Necropolis has its own secret water source?
Asking about Water Chip in the Hub directs to the Water Merchants.

Also, Patrick the Celt points Necropolis as a place that may have a Water Chip.

 

[Sodomy]

Don't forget about the holodisk in the library which gives a very good description of its location as the location of a vault.

 

[sheek]

I was not so much into the setting, the story was good but not amazing, the combat was pretty standard so I vote multiple solutions to quests.

 

[Shannow]

Re: re

and they both have relatively terrible looking graphics (and I don't mean art - Arcanum had beautiful and detailed item art).

Fallout has sweet graphics, especially today, I prefer 2d especially in Fallout style and to me not much looks better, sure could be improved I guess like Fallout Tactics, but 2D isometric fucking rules.

This brings up something that always confused me with Arcanum, I was slobbering all over it from the moment I heard about it, desperately waiting for it to come out and looking at screenshots I just thought it looked a bit crappy, why couldn't they just make it look as good as fallout? But it'll still be sweet I thought, and fantasy done right where I can shoot some gay elf in the face, but wait... tech users fucking suck, and even if they didn't the combat is so god damn shit that even if my gun rocked it doesn't matter because the combat plays out so awkwardly theres no pleasure in it at all. Then it would crash.

None of the dialogue especially early on drew me in to the game world, taking enjoyment out of all transactions, quests and exploration. Though talking to Virgil as an idiot was pretty funny. As a retarded Fallout fanboy eagerly awaiting what would could be its creators latest and greatest masterpiece I was let down in every department, it didn't have to completely live up to Fallout, but it wasn't even a decent game god dammit.

In recent years I've tried to go back repeatedly but just can't get past the GAMEPLAY, it fucking sucks, not just combat but all of it. C&C are not all of it, a fucking flow chart 1 mile long isn't worth shit when your whole game sucks.

In short:
Arcanums graphics are fucking shit, both in quality and art directions. I never understood how it could be technically proficient but just look so damn crap(and my god the animations)
The combat is beyond shit though everyone knows this
The whole world is bland and boring as hell, and thus most of the the quests and dialogue are
And its character system is pretty crap too.

Fallouts graphics are fucking awesome
The combat is not the best, but good and very satisfying, love the animations too
Cool world to explore, good dialogue\quests\characters
SPECIAL system is good, progress is well balanced but feels significant every level, like you can notice levels difference while in that enjoyable combat.

Fallout just does it all right and is actually fun to play, Arcanum just has god awful gameplay, which I think is pretty critical in a.... game

What he said.

ditto

Pretty much.

Aye (with less vitriol and more bugs)

 

[Fritz Haber]

Depends. Good combat is always appreciated if it is one of the following:

-Barrier to an area where the player is not yet supposed to go

-Culmination of other actions or plot (not necessarily the dreaded ENDBOSS)

-Otherwise meaningful as in no-filler, well-designed encounter

Alternatives to combat can be social and mercantile interactions (advancement of rank/status, reaching political goals), but those have to be realized in the game world.
'Die Fugger 2' springs to mind, I would love a complex crpg in a world like that, with all the stuff there was to it: trade, intrigue, diseases, duels, marriage, book printing,
warfare, climbing the social ladder, exercising earned privileges, etc.. All this, but within a more tangible gameworld, where I can see my character, and the people he/she
is talking to, explore cities and so on.

Of course, this would be hard to shoehorn into a Fallout/Crpg type of plot, as in 'chosen one/epic quest' with a 'my char is the best monster!' gratification, where plot
and game world is more or less fixed on your character, who seems to be the only person able of action and changing history.

@ VD, I read somewhere that 'unanswered' quest in AoD would get resolved without player involvement after a certain amount of time. Are the results of these
auto-quest later on of importance to the Player and Plot (if so, good) or do they just disappear,a la Daggerfall?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Don't forget about the holodisk in the library which gives a very good description of its location as the location of a vault.

And who knows how many Vaults there are. I didn't know the Necropolis was a Vault until after I had to war against a pack of Mutants to reach the underground. I will say that I had undue trouble linking the clues because I had to stop playing the game for 2 months and the game doesn't keep a good journal.

Nevertheless I liked the quest. I wish there were more quest like it in other games. I just wish wanted a few more clues and for gods sake they should have been put in a journal together.

 

[Sodomy]

And who knows how many Vaults there are.

The player at that point knows that there are 4 vaults. He's searched 2.

I didn't know the Necropolis was a Vault until after I had to war against a pack of Mutants to reach the underground. I will say that I had undue trouble linking the clues because I had to stop playing the game for 2 months and the game doesn't keep a good journal.

Nevertheless I liked the quest. I wish there were more quest like it in other games. I just wish wanted a few more clues and for gods sake they should have been put in a journal together.

Yeah, we need a journal to hold our hand and tell us where everything is, because it's too hard to figure that out for ourselves. Maybe the game should have put a big red arrow pointing to Necropolis after the player gets that holodisk.

 

[laclongquan]

Then you propose a written journal instead of a game journal? Because there're things we wish to remmeber, things that the game provide as clues. Like he said, 2 months stop is not unreasonable. Hell, 2 week stop is not unexpected.

Fallout 2 PipBoy notetaker is a bit sparse. Torment's is better though unorganized the way a journal often was. Arcanum journal is superior for this category, I think.

 

[Sodomy]

Then you propose a written journal instead of a game journal? Because there're things we wish to remmeber, things that the game provide as clues. Like he said, 2 months stop is not unreasonable. Hell, 2 week stop is not unexpected.

Fallout 2 PipBoy notetaker is a bit sparse. Torment's is better though unorganized the way a journal often was. Arcanum journal is superior for this category, I think.

Indeed, the old-school pencil and paper journal is the optimum way of doing things. That way, it leaves it up to the player to figure out what's important and how to act on it, rather than cramming it down their throat. I suppose a reasonable compromise for the new shit ADD generation is to do what the Avernum and Geneforge games do, and allow any line spoken by an NPC to be added to the journal by hitting the "record" button, in conjunction with not having a "traditional" journal (the Spiderweb games do drop the ball a bit here- there is a "traditional" journal in addition to the record function, but at least it's sparse). The Gothic 3 solution of putting every line of dialogue relevant to the quest into the journal but not giving directions or goals related to the quest is acceptable, although far from ideal- it would be an improvement if it was sorted by character spoken from, rather than by relevant quest, as it would force the player to at least use their brain a little bit in correlating information. Another ok solution would be to have a journal that was basically only like the "rumors" section of the Arcanum journal with no "quest" journal. Automatically noting every bit of information for the player and telling which quest it's related to, with directions as to what the player should do in response to that information, is next-gen dumbfuckery. When the player isn't allowed to connect-the-dots himself, the thrill of discovery is gone.

 

[CrimHead]

Fallout is one of my favorite games (second only to Planescape Torment) because of how ruthless it is toward the player character-- which helps with the immersion. The atmosphere is dark and disturbing, the combat is fast and deadly, and people aren't real fond of too many questions. If you fuckup at any time during the game, you’re liable to be screwed for the remainder. Talk to someone in the wrong tone? Quest locked. Can't go back. It's your fault for being stupid. While I wouldn't call Fallout REALISTIC, I'd certainly call it believable.

Additionally, the plot is excellent, the music is dark and ominous... Jesus, Fallout is a masterpiece. I love everything about it, and nothing I could type here could appropriately express how great this game is and how fond of it I am. It’s one of the few games I’ve ever played in which every element of the game is perfectly executed, In which every facet fits together seamlessly. Arcanum has it’s balance issues, Planescape has it’s path finding and combat, but Fallout… Fallout is perfection.

And don't even get me started on the replayability factor! Bethesda should feel ashamed of their "Be anyone, do anything" nonsense. Bullshit. Lies. That's Fallout. Stfu and gtfo.

That said, Planescape is still my favorite because of it’s literary and philosophical excellence--however pompous that may sound. You can’t deny it’s among the best games ever written.

But I personally think the poll is a little limited. I don't like it for any of those reasons. I like it for all of them. But I guess I'll vote atmosphere and setting. Nothing compares to visiting the Cathedral for the first time and speaking with Morpheus and the Master.

In conclusion,

Fallout...

Fallout is like the tolling of some great retro sci-fi bell.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

I like fallout because it modifies my father's appearance to resemble the one I chose for myself in character generation.

 

[CrimHead]

I like fallout because it modifies my father's appearance to resemble the one I chose for myself in character generation.

 

[Zhuangzi]

This thread inspired me to crank up Fallout again, for only the second or maybe the third time ever. I actually came to Fallout via Arcanum, although in the end I do prefer Fallout 1/2 better. When I first played them in 2004-5 (missed the boat initially) I prefered Fallout 2. There was something about the Den especially that I really enjoyed. Anyway, I've been playing Fallout a bit over the past two days and I'm up to the end already (Cathedral). That's a very short game if you know what you're doing. I can't have played more than 6-8 hours and I've been to all locations and done all major quests (everything I could do in the Hub, Boneyards, Necrocropolis etc etc). No doubt I missed some minor stuff.

This time around I breezed through combat very easily (on Normal though). Sniper rifle + eye shots seems to be incredible overpowered. You can blast any enemy from close range or long for maybe 80 damage. I just soloed the military base without much problem at all.

One thing I really like about Fallout is that there's no sense of grinding through combat at all. People tend to die very quickly when they cop a SMG in the guts, as it should be. Love the death animations too. Another great thing is that you can actually have 150% Small Guns by maybe level 8 if you want that. No small progressions here. Each of the locations is unique and there's little if any filler in the entire game. Characters are differentiated from each other and the overall story is interesting. My only gripe (and it's a small one) is that it's way too easy to make a lot of caps in the game by selling leather armor/SMGs etc. The biggest problem is finding traders who actually have caps. I'd like to see a few more unique weapons/armor. But that's it. My only complaint.

I see that ammo actually weighs something in Fallout 1, not like in 3!

This is the perfect RPG - outstanding setting/atmosphere (that's what I voted for), some C&C (not a huge amount), satisfying combat that is over quickly and is never a chore, and a good storyline.

Fallout = WIN

 

[entertainer]

I often see this from Fallout1/2 fans: elitist hostility intended to avoid discussion.

Hey, can you bend your planet sized Fallout fan intellect to explain why supposedly well written games have such agonisingly unoriginal and unfunny out-of-gameworld-character monty python references and scientology references?

Can you explain the roleplaying game merits of the start of Fallout 1 - a brief cinematic telling you to get the McGuffin errr waterchip before you find yourself unceremoniously dumped into a dull corridor full of hostile rats. That's a score of zero on interaction, establishing your character and other characters through interaction, establishing a reason to care about saving the vault and a score of a dozen on hostile rats killed. Wow, great RPG writing there. And the start of Fallout 2 is even worse!

Can you explain exactly what the extra strategy in Fallout1/2's turn based combat is? I mean once you get a good gun and good skills it just falls apart into 'click eyeshot' and even before then kiting and using cover is no more strategic doing in turns than doing it first person, so what's the extra strategy?

There's a good start.

 

[Hory]

Can you explain the roleplaying game merits of the start of Fallout 1 - a brief cinematic telling you to get the McGuffin errr waterchip before you find yourself unceremoniously dumped into a dull corridor full of hostile rats. That's a score of zero on interaction,

This is just ridiculous. Every RPG HAS to have a backstory which is non interactive, because no game starts at the Big Bang. And if you had confronted the overseer before leaving, what would could you do, refuse leaving only to quickly have the game inform you that you eventually died of thirst? Or would you complain that the period of time before the chip broke should be interactive too? Why not also the period before entering the Vault, maybe choose another Vault altogether!

The game is about a vault dweller who had to face a post-apocalyptic wasteland. And if you don't find this premise interesting unless you spend intimate moments with your vault brothers and sisters in which they make dramatic speeches which soften you up to their requests, don't play it.

 

[Phelot]

Can you explain the roleplaying game merits of the start of Fallout 1 - a brief cinematic telling you to get the McGuffin errr waterchip before you find yourself unceremoniously dumped into a dull corridor full of hostile rats. That's a score of zero on interaction,

This is just ridiculous. Every RPG HAS to have a backstory which is non interactive, because no game starts at the Big Bang. And if you had confronted the overseer before leaving, what would could you do, refuse leaving only to quickly have the game inform you that you eventually died of thirst? Or would you complain that the period of time before the chip broke should be interactive too? Why not also the period before entering the Vault, maybe choose another Vault altogether!

Indeed. FO3 did this for the tutorial. I suppose some people liked it, but I found it to be incredibly tedious. I don't need to learn how to jump and talk to people, thanks!

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Also, I feel that guns were done much better in Fallout - each of them has a separate ammo type instead of the same "bullets" for a flintlock pistol and a hand cannon.