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Why are Strength and Constitution never merged ?

Erebus

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Jul 12, 2008
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The two are pretty close, yet RPG systems always make them separate abilities, even when they're otherwise trying to be simple.

Obviously, being strong and being resistant aren't quite the same thing, but it's hard to imagine someone's strength being much higher or much lower than his/her physical endurance. Either you're fit and muscled or you're not.

Besides, nobody cares when such diverse things as general coordination, suppleness, hand dexterity, reflexes and even precision are lumped together and called "dexterity" or "agility". So why is it such a big deal to distinguish between "strength" and "constitution" ?
 

Phelot

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Well, constitution should be determining resistances to things like diseases, cold, pain threshold. Things of that nature.

Strength should be determining weight limit, breaking doors down, breaking locks, feats of strength (duh)

The real problem is that games simply don't include these sort of checks like pnp does. They're simply not written in, so yeah I suppose they should be combined except many games get into the rut of having constitution or endurance determine HP and strength determine damage and max weight.

It's a shame that games don't add in different checks for their stats. In fact, that's what I consider C&C. For example: how do I want to approach a dangerous situation? Do I smash the door down using strength and alert the guards? Do I just kill them all? Do I use intelligence to reason with them? Do I sneak by them? If I don't kill them, won't I have to deal with them later should my presence be known?

Eh... sorry to derail.
 

Kraszu

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Erebus said:
Obviously, being strong and being resistant aren't quite the same thing, but it's hard to imagine someone's strength being much higher or much lower than his/her physical endurance. Either you're fit and muscled or you're not.

Not true, there are diferent kinds of muscles. Most power-lifters have very bad endurance, and endurance training don't give you much visible muscles either.

Being fit is a crappy indicator, there are overweight people that run for miles everyday, and ripped people that would get gassed faster then average person.
 
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I imagine it's to prevent making a godly fighter-character by simply dumping all points into one stat. it also allows for a wider variety of characters (plus, a strong guy doesn't necessarily takes punishment better, and a big guy may not be very strong).

The same goes for Intelligence and Willpower, Speed and Agility, etc.

Obviously, being strong and being resistant aren't quite the same thing, but it's hard to imagine someone's strength being much higher or much lower than his/her physical endurance. Either you're fit and muscled or you're not.

Not necessarily. A bodybuilder might seem hellish strong, but a truly strong body is a little round (mostly because of developed abdominal muscles). If only I could find that chart...shows a bodybuilder body on one side and a "kills bears with bare hands" on the other.
 
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Its the same thing for games with wisdom and intelligence. Probably done simply to give more stats. If there was just intelligence, there wouldn't be much choice of where a wizard should be putting his points, now is there?

EDIT: Clockwork beat me. :oops:
 

Black Cat

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I think it was because constitution and the like is not as much related to being strong as it is related to being to enduring a certain amount of physical effort for really long periods and to activities requiring a diferent type of physical activity than, like, strenght or coordination, like swiming or long distance running. If my memory isn't playing games with me i remember in some systems it was explained as high Strength being able of really amazing but short lived bursts of strenght, like a smallish and cute neko pooka pushing a distracted and gigantic Troll out a cliff, while high Resistance or Constitution being able to maintain what strenght or level of physical effort she is able to apply for longer periods of time, like in swiming or running a marathon or resisting physical pain and stuffies.

Edity Edit: Some contested physical rolls may use strength at first but constitution to break perceived ties, or straight out use constitution if the strenght ranks of both characters is too similar, nya.
 
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On the standard crpg setup there isn't much logical justification: physical strength is likely to correlate with amount of physical battering. Having said that, a tough 'high-endurance' guy should logically die from a single stab through the ribcage, or into the throat, or inside of the arm, or upper inside of the leg etc etc just as quickly as a little weakling. So let's not think too hard about realism and logic. In terms of tactical game mechanics it helps in terms of making different kinds of combat character, and giving fighters another thing to trade-off (though I prefer systems where fighters benefit from int in learning styles and moves, giving a 'skilled/cunning but only moderately strong' vs 'strong but simple slugger' tradeoff.

You could do more with it though, where it would make both logical and gameplay sense. An incrdibly physically fit and strong guy is usually more prone to disease than an 'average' guy due to reduced immune efficiency over a certain level (i.e. near olympic level) of physical exertion. In any event, there's no need to link physical strength to resistances - that stuff might turn on compeltely different genetc factors. Perhaps more usefully in a crpg, you could separate plain strength from fitness, with endurance being fitness. Endurance then would govern how long you could sprint, how far you could push yourself when poisoned or badly wounded, how much you can push yourself to keep swinging effectively (i.e. using special techniques) when exhausted. That kind of fitness need not correlate with strength - champion distance runners are not champion weightlifters.
 

Erebus

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I understand how you might have more strength than resistance (or the opposite) in the real world. But is it really useful to have such a distinction in RPG ? Characters tend to have both high strength and high constitution (if they're warriors) or neither. There are few cases in which it would make sense to have a character with high strength and below-average constitution. And while constitution can be useful to all kinds of characters, you're unlikely to invest heavily in it if your strength is low.

In RPG, you probably won't have to run a marathon or to pull a truck behind you very often. You'll mainly need strength and constitution to deal damage and to absorb it, two things which pretty much go together.

Let's take D&D's basic classes : the primary attributes are dexterity for a thief, intelligence for a mage, wisdom for a priest. What's the point of having two primary attributes for a warrior ? Fighting well requires high scores in both strength and constitution, so why not make them just one attribute ?
 

Panthera

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I do like how GURPS separates Strength from Health. Strength determines your size, damage and hitpoints, but health determines your fatigue limit, how likely you are to die or fall unconscious from a grievous wound, how well you resist disease, etc.
 

AzraelCC

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Erebus said:
The two are pretty close, yet RPG systems always make them separate abilities, even when they're otherwise trying to be simple.

Obviously, being strong and being resistant aren't quite the same thing, but it's hard to imagine someone's strength being much higher or much lower than his/her physical endurance. Either you're fit and muscled or you're not.

Besides, nobody cares when such diverse things as general coordination, suppleness, hand dexterity, reflexes and even precision are lumped together and called "dexterity" or "agility". So why is it such a big deal to distinguish between "strength" and "constitution" ?

rushwin.jpg
 

Grog

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Are we forgetting that the later Ultimas already did this? They only had STR, and it determined attack power and hit points.
 

Zeus

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Forgetting disease for a moment, constitution determines hitpoints, or the ability to withstand traumatic damage, right?

They did a study (I'll find a link if anyone wants) about survivors of falls from incredible heights. Babies were far more likely than grown adult men. Kids under two have survived falls of thousands of feet from airplanes, while the adults in the plane did not, because their bodies were able to absorb the impact better.

In professional wrestling, big steroid freaks are ALWAYS getting injured, because their bodies are too stiff with muscle to take the kind of falls that smaller, more athletic guys do. It's kind of a joke, because big tough guys like Batista are always out on injury, while the Chris Beniot types are only out on serious neck injuries or because they killed their families in a murder/suicide.

What I'm getting at is that people who survive horrible accidents tend not to be the most muscular.

Obviously, there are exceptions. A boxer can take a punch better than anyone, and boxers tend to be quite strong. But that's a very specific condition. How would a boxer handle a car crash? I'm guessing they'd tense up, as if expecting the next punch. That's the worst thing you can do.
 

JarlFrank

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Personally, I have low strength (have problems lifting heavy stuff) but high constitution (almost never get ill, can take quite a beating before I go down).

So yeah, it makes sense to have them be two different stats.
 

zenbitz

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Strength determines your size, damage and hitpoints, but health determines your fatigue limit, how likely you are to die or fall unconscious from a grievous wound, how well you resist disease, etc.

I am 90% certain that HPs in GURPS were = HT (Health) not Strength (at least in the 1990s edition.. 2nd?) You could however, have HPs != HT by some combination of advantages/disadvantages.

It's pretty uncommon for PnP RPGs to merge "damage doing" and "damage taking" abilities.

I guess a minimalist system would have "Physical" stat and "Mental" stat.

Some friends I had in college who like Rolemaster (like 10 or 12 stats) but hated GURPS used to mock it by saying they should make a game with a single stat called "STAT".
 

thesheeep

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JarlFrank said:
Personally, I have low strength (have problems lifting heavy stuff) but high constitution (almost never get ill, can take quite a beating before I go down).

So yeah, it makes sense to have them be two different stats.

So Jarl, what would be your D&D stats?
 

Zeus

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thesheeep said:
JarlFrank said:
Personally, I have low strength (have problems lifting heavy stuff) but high constitution (almost never get ill, can take quite a beating before I go down).

So yeah, it makes sense to have them be two different stats.

So Jarl, what would be your D&D stats?

It's just sad that he has has low strength, but knows he can take quite a beating before going down.

That must have been a rough day for ya. :/
 

Panthera

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zenbitz said:
I am 90% certain that HPs in GURPS were = HT (Health) not Strength (at least in the 1990s edition.. 2nd?) You could however, have HPs != HT by some combination of advantages/disadvantages..

I'm talking 4th edition GURPS, which I'm finding to be a really solid and well thought out set of changes.
 

JarlFrank

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thesheeep said:
JarlFrank said:
Personally, I have low strength (have problems lifting heavy stuff) but high constitution (almost never get ill, can take quite a beating before I go down).

So yeah, it makes sense to have them be two different stats.

So Jarl, what would be your D&D stats?

8 STR
10 DEX
14 CON
15 INT
16 WIS
11 CHA

Strength is definitely my dump stat.
 

Zeus

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JarlFrank said:
Strength is definitely my dump stat.

I think that could pretty much be the new headline quote.

"RPGCodex: Strength is our dump stat."
 

thesheeep

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Interesting!

Mine would come down to...

8 STR
9 DEX
12 CON
16 INT
13 WIS
17 CHA

... I guess. Never made a char like that, though ;)
Hmm... now that I think of it, it WOULD make a capable sorcerer.

Zeus said:
I think that could pretty much be the new headline quote.

"RPGCodex: Strength is our dump stat."
True ;)
 

zenbitz

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I rolled up my D&D stats the old fashioned way... with 3d6.

STR 18 00
DEX 16
CON 17
INT 18
WIS 15
CHA 16




Of course, I was in Junior High School, so I cheated.
 

Black Cat

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I can't believe Teh Codex just went into Hey buddy buds, look! Those are my dungeons and dragons stat numbers, nya! territory.

:decline:
 

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