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Level scaling should be scaled to equipment level

Heresiarch

Prophet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
I've been thinking about this: why must a freaking major city like Baldur's Gate, or Athkatla sell only inferior stuff compared to some backwater remote village? Just because the latter must be reached much later in the game?

Games which did well (and realistic) in this regard are Daggerfall, Morrowind, and sandbox games in general - you CAN obtain very powerful items early on if you're willing to grind grind grind, either looking for hidden treasures which can be reached any time, or just buy them if luck makes a vendor sell it. Heck, in Daggerfall you can get Daedric items in random inn closets.

But wouldn't level 1 characters with a randomly obtained Vapour Hammer or Daedric Boots of Ass Kicking overpowered? I think the solution is quite simple (but no game has ever done this): why do YOU, the hero, want to kill goblin kings, dragons and infamous powerful outlaws or anti-heroes? Because you KNOW they have phat lewts on them and you want to rob them. So imagine if you're a chaotic evil (or just about any alignment) character, you've heard some puny level 1 NPC has juicy Adamantine Staff of Elemental Annihilation on him, would you like to seek out and hunt him down for the awesome weapon?

Yes, I think level scaling is not a bad idea, but it should be done scaled to the equipment level, not character level. No sane person (or monster) would be tempted to kill a super powerful character with 99 str 98 con and 99 int (unless eating his corpse would increase its stats), but anyone would want to kill anything - regardless how scary, terrible, dreadful it is - as long as it has the uber equipment which would make him awesum or can be sold for lotsa $$$.

So maybe one day, in a good RPG, you, Kingcomrade the Luckyass, after having picked up the Power Plate of Ubermensch at level 4, has been suffered from repeated attacks from level 10 elite bandits and level 11 senior wizards. You're quite frustrated, then one day at some local bar after asking the bartender "Newest rumor", he replies:"Have you heard about it? Some weakling has gotten some powerful armor of the Ubermensch"...you now understand why all the guys go after you!
 

Reject_666_6

Arcane
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What about if you're playing as a monk, which is really not dependent on equipment for kicking ass? That or a generic glass-cannon type spellcaster?
 

Reject_666_6

Arcane
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The idea's not shtty at all, but you can't base a game's entire encounter design on it unless you specifically design the game's classes to be equipment-based. The best way to integrate this would be as a mix of this, level scaling and good ol fashioned tough monsters.
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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I always didn't like that in Freespace the Liberty ships sucked compared to ones from later areas of the game. It hurt the idea of a cohesive environment. I mean, I understand Freespace was designed as like a single player MMO, so Liberty was Goldshire while Rhineland was the Eastern Plaguelands, but it bugged me.
 

Reject_666_6

Arcane
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Donkey Balls said:
Enemies should be scaled to your stats/skills, not level, nor equipment.
Not all stats or skills are combat-oriented. You can't make an enemy stronger because your Fighter took a few more ranks in Appraisal. Same with Charisma, Luck or whatever else.
kingcomrade said:
I always didn't like that in Freespace the Liberty ships sucked compared to ones from later areas of the game. It hurt the idea of a cohesive environment. I mean, I understand Freespace was designed as like a single player MMO, so Liberty was Goldshire while Rhineland was the Eastern Plaguelands, but it bugged me.
I think that was Freelancer.
 

Donkey Balls

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I'm spending way too much time here :(
Reject_666_6 said:
Donkey Balls said:
Enemies should be scaled to your stats/skills, not level, nor equipment.
Not all stats or skills are combat-oriented. You can't make an enemy stronger because your Fighter took a few more ranks in Appraisal. Same with Charisma, Luck or whatever else.
Yeah, I meant the combat skills. E.g. in Oblivion if you spend a few levels raising your stealth skills only, then you just gimp yourself, since the level scaling only cares about your level.
 

Hobo Elf

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Donkey Balls said:
Hobo Elf said:
Here's an idea: how about no level scaling at all? Holy fucking shit. :idea:
Yeah, and enjoy your no free exploration. Like in Divinity 2 you have to first to go to an area with lvl 2 goblins, then lvl 4 goblins, then lvl 6 skeletons, etc.

I think it's very adorable when you use Divinity 2 as an example.
 

Reject_666_6

Arcane
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Drog's right, having no level scaling at all shoehorns you into very linear paths. (I'm not advocating Oblivion's method of lvl 90 rats either because there are much better ways of doing things.)
 

Darth Roxor

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Donkey Balls said:
Yeah, and enjoy your no free exploration.

Yeah. Like in Gothics and Risen.


Wait, why the fuck am I replying to Drog in the first place?
 

Konjad

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Reject_666_6 said:
Drog's right, having no level scaling at all shoehorns you into very linear paths. I'm not advocating Oblivion's method of lvl 90 rats because there are uch better ways of doing things.

Like in Gothic you had very linear path? You couldn't go to another camp trying to avoid monsters... oh, wait, you could.
 

Reject_666_6

Arcane
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Gothics pulled it off well because you don't become that much stronger when levelling up, at least not nearly as much as in a D&D game. Tbh, I prefer the Gothic way, but it wouldn't work everywhere.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
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I'm not saying that people who advocate level scaling are necessarily stupid - I'm simply suggesting that the world would be a better place if they were euthanized.
 

Squirly

Educated
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
204
Fuck scaling in any way or form. It might be very well impossible to do a properly "balanced" game that way, but then RPGs are all about un-balance (I made teh word) - my stick is bigger than your stick and I can swing it in a superior fashion. Observe!
 

obediah

Erudite
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Jan 31, 2005
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Donkey Balls said:
My point is there should always be challenge no matter where you go. It shouldn't be possible for someone who's terrible at a game to simply overlevel a difficult encounter.

I wish everyone was so courteous as to describe the quality of their future posts in their username.

lvl 2 orcs on this side of the bridge and lvl 40 orcs on the other side of the bridge is bad design, but level scaling is far worse as it flies in the face of increasing stats in an rpg. It's like a drag car designer deciding that making the driver release the parachutes is too complicated, so they'll just be deployed from the start of the race. If you want challenge everywhere, then make a low power rpg, or just rip out the stats and make Grand Theft Carriage IV (and go back to IGN forums where you belong).
 

Heresiarch

Prophet
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Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
Duh, the point about this topic isn't about THAT level scaling.

Actually I've read the "Why RPGs are Such a Pain in the Ass" news and I saw how it complained that it's hard to design character growth and encounters. Having too powerful a weapon early on would easily make early encounters too much a pushover.

I think my idea would fit more sandbox games (and to some degree, Fallout and alike), but not plot-driven games like IE games. It DOES make sense if it's implemented right: think about this, if you're a level 2 warrior with a rusty short sword, and you see a warrior fully clad in dark red plate armor and wielding a huge flaming sword with lightning zapping around, would YOU fight it (not counting save and load)?

Same story: why would stupid level 3 NPC bandits in leather armor go surround your supah poward warrior in dragon scale armor and wielding a demonic, blood dripping great axe? That's pure suicide.

HOWEVER, if you're getting more powerful, you would probably actively seek out that said flaming sword wielding warrior to kill for lewt.

Also, weakling bandits shan't go make the hopeless fight against the hero surrounded with crazy magic aura, but demonic spawns, elites of a dark cult or something like that would.

If you say level scaling is shit, think about this: would a DM give your level 17 party encounters after encounters of level 2 goblins? Like wise, would your DM give your level 2 party encounters about killing level 22 dragons? Unless with really good reason, nah.

With monks and mages and other less equipment relied class, it still isn't too hard to balance it. Implement somthing like a fame system (like the Elona one lol) and measly random bandits won't dare to touch you...while more powerful guys would grow more interest in you.
 

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