Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Any examples of games with group conversations?

Erzherzog

Magister
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
2,887
Location
Mid-Atlantic
I've been thinking about diplomacy skills in games and why they always feel like a let down compared to the fun obtained from other skills, and one thing I noticed is that almost all conversations are merely between the player and a single npc and I can't think of many examples otherwise.

I mean hell, some people thought that the courtroom scene in NWN2 was a hightlight (people rightly bitch that it has zero impact in the end and therefore worthless but that's not what I'm trying to discuss.)

Certainly a lot of our conversations in real life are just between 2 people but a lot of our most significant interactions are in group situations, but most RPGs model groups as a bunch of individuals that don't necessarily act as a group.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
BG2 has banter between MC and 1+ party members and funny interactions but those do not necessarily bring anything other than enjoyment (well some party members like to kill each other but thats it).

DA also goes this way but has less companions active at the same time so its 3 people in conversation max.

Other than that I dont really remember any games.
 

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
Developer
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
5,589
Location
Jordan, Minnesota
Project: Eternity
that russian alcatraz-something had some group conversations, if i'm not mistaken. got bored pretty quickly though, so not sure how often they appear.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,405
Location
Djibouti
Storm of Zehir? Although that's still more like 'player's blob conversing with NPC' than multiple people talking, but whatev.
 

Erzherzog

Magister
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
2,887
Location
Mid-Atlantic
Darth Roxor said:
Storm of Zehir? Although that's still more like 'player's blob conversing with NPC' than multiple people talking, but whatev.

True, but it's a large improvement in my opinion. I've never gotten far in SoZ but I liked conversations more than your standard RPG.

I don't play many RPGs not centered on a clearly defined main character though, how do they generally handle dialogue in comparison? Is dialogue simply just assaulting a single npc with your multi-headed dragon of characters?
 

Phelot

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
17,908
You were right to delete that post, Commie :smug:

PST sort of had it in the form of one character inserting a one liner, though IIRC Morte would butt in at times.

I always find it to be kind of funny to have 1on1 conversations with someone, sometimes very deep and meaningful (romance in BG2) while the other members just stand there... awkward and it never feels right. They just shouldn't put it in if they're not going to include the other characters, or make it triggered if alone with the particular NPC.
 

Sceptic

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
10,871
Divinity: Original Sin
Erzherzog said:
I don't play many RPGs not centered on a clearly defined main character though, how do they generally handle dialogue in comparison? Is dialogue simply just assaulting a single npc with your multi-headed dragon of characters?
In IWD it's whichever char you picked to talk to the NPC. IWD2 was more interesting because class and race could heavily affect your options. Most of the other party-based CRPGs that I can think of didn't have dialog trees. In Dark Sun you could assume it was your assigned party leader... though come to think of it it may have been closer to SOZ, as you'd get the option to pickpocket for exemple if you had a thief in your party.

phelot said:
PST sort of had it in the form of one character inserting a one liner, though IIRC Morte would butt in at times.
The conversation with Ravel with interesting because the NPC's can butt in with more than just an unimportant one-liner. I always have Annah, and she's the one who points out to Ravel that she loved TNO.

Conversations with Morte and a prostitute are the closest I've seen to a natural group discussion, especially if you let Morte piss the prostitute off.
 

Phelot

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
17,908
It's really just fantasy on our part though, it'd be nearly impossible to write all the possible alternate conversations and it's lame having an NPC butt in only to be ignored like in BG2. You'd be talking to someone and one of your companions would babble out a threat that the NPC would just completely ignore.

I can almost imagine the NPC staring at the companion for a second, then turn back to the player and continuing the conversation :lol:

Anyways, best not to do it unless it's real light or within the party.

Another note: what little I played of DA:O, it seemed like the party banter could have been interesting except that they went on and on and on while I was running around doing shit. Who runs as fast as they can while babbling? I don't know, it seemed strange, though at least it tried I guess. Too bad it was terrible writing.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,241
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA
The trial in Serpent Isle comes to mind. In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet they included the trial in NWN2 as an homage to Serpent Isle. It almost plays the same way (In that after the conclusion of it, noting happens from it) sadly.
 

grotsnik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
1,671
SoZ party convos clearly had a lot of work put into them; the breadth of unique alignment/skill/attribute-based dialogue options was great.

It was a real shame they didn't find some way of putting that in a more interesting game, but they seemed to decide that not having a focused main character = it's okay to have a half-assed plot and NPCs.
 

Erzherzog

Magister
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
2,887
Location
Mid-Atlantic
commie said:
phelot said:
You were right to delete that post, Commie :smug:

Only did it because I didn't realise we were talking about party based games.

We're not, necessarily. Actually what I had in mind was how a player addresses highly influential people with no direct protests from a third party that the player has to argue against. It always just ends up as an isolated example that gets praise rather than the norm in a game. When I discuss politics with the king, people representing other interests should definitely speak up.
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
We had quite a few party and multi-character based dialogs in Prelude to Darkness, it was a design goal from the start that while one character was the party's "leader" at all times, everyone in the party would have some influence on conversations. For instance its assumed that with a really low charisma someone in your party might belch at an inopportune moment in the middle of a dinner at a nobles house, which might send the conversation in a particular direction, or just provide flavor, or might institute a check to see if the leader can overcome his "friend's" rudeness.

Its not too hard to incorporate multiple characters in to a linear dialog, but when you start trying to incorporate multiple characters stats/responses/influence in to branching dialogs its just scripting hell, which is why it tends to only appear in larger set-pieces like important trials and such. Serpent Isle is my favorite of those outside of our work.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
thathmew said:
Its not too hard to incorporate multiple characters in to a linear dialog

Yeah I was going to say, JRPGs and Japtactical RPGs tend to do quite a bit of it, because it's easy for them as dialogs are 100% linear and they know what characters will be with you.
 

Thrasher

Erudite
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,407
NWN2 OC and MoTB has them, too. Usually in these instances, there are opportunities to gain/lose influence with one or more party members.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
In MotB, characters also chipped in with skills of their own - very rarely though.
 

Sceptic

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
10,871
Divinity: Original Sin
Thrasher said:
NWN2 OC and MoTB has them, too. Usually in these instances, there are opportunities to gain/lose influence with one or more party members.
Ah that reminds me, MOW did those very well. When the paladin and cleric start arguing, the thief chips in, and then you can.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,036
Location
NZ
Arcanum had a good example near the beginning. You get approached by a shady looking fellow and Virgil butts in. Whether you interrupt him or not results in a different outcome. Sadly not too many more come to mind.
 

racofer

Thread Incliner
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
25,577
Location
Your ignore list.
HAHA U BROS CAN HARDYL GET TWO CHARACTERERS TO HAVE NAY NON POPAMOEL DIALOG AT ALL NOWDAYS BUT NOW U R EXXPECTING MOTEHRFUCKING THREE SHEEPLE CONVERSATIONS OH MAEK ME LAUGH GODEX MEKE ME LAWL
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
There are a lot of games that do it. In fact almost all RPGs since like... Ultima 7? probably have done it. Dozens of them anyway.

However, these so-called "group conversations" have essentially always been limited to characters "butting in" one at a time in a conversation. The problem lies in the fact that the mind generally cannot process more than a single thing with efficiency at any one time, so unless the conversation (presumably text) is superfluous enough to not require the player to read all content, its not going to feel very dynamic or involving or like a group activity.

I think racofer has made a most important point in his own way.. the foundation of dialogue as it stands - between the PC and a single other NPC - is in need of serious changes anyway, so moving on to group conversations from such a primitive foundation would be rather backwards. But there is no way for it to happen in this mainstream climate; devs are more and more favouring the idea of minimising the amount of information processing at any one time (which in turn makes players less intelligent, but that is a whole other topic). The moment you start to prepare a generation for simplified information processing is the moment you set back the human mind's amazing ability to grow with its surroundings.

I would love to see really complex dialogue systems, but the current methods of presenting that information will turn it into a pretty tiresome activity for the player (let alone the designer/programmer).

The only way we will be able to introduce significant amounts of additional information into dialogue is through simulation of dynamic facial and bodily expressions, after all that is how our mind is wired to be able to interpret such a large amounts of social information at once. Words are just not going to do the job. Neither is shitty voice acting.
 

Ammar

Scholar
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
215
Yes, at least since Ultima 6 many games had that features. Since it came closest in regard to a living world and NPC with schedules I always found the absence of conversations including several characters a weakness of Gothic 1&2.
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
though come to think of it it may have been closer to SOZ, as you'd get the option to pickpocket for exemple if you had a thief in your party.

No, you had to have the thief as the party leader to get thief options.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom