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Valve killed Arcanum sequel!?

Wirdschowerdn

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Lyric Suite said:
I thought Valve saved Bloodlines from being even more of an unplayable bugfest by forcing them to release the game after Half Life 2.
Wrong. The game was basically already finsihed in 2003, but Activision sat on it without doing any extra work, and because Valve fucked up their HL2 schedule, Troika had to wait.
 

Whipporowill

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Tuco Benedicto Pacifico said:
Morgoth said:
Wrong. The game was basically already finsihed in 2003
Which is clearly untrue.

Well, Troika probably wasn't paid anything after this time, so it was probably "done" as far as Activision was concerned. As to it's playable state - I only suffered one bug with the release version, and that was the infamous trigger in the boat one... which could easily be solved with a console command.
 

Vault Dweller

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Awor Szurkrarz said:
Azrael the cat said:
Malakal said:
And nothing of value was lost.

Still I wonder why they even started working on it. Wasnt Arcanum a flop that destroyed Troika?

Volourn has no excuse for his ignorance (not talking about his not liking Arcanum - that's personal taste, and personally I don't think it's their best game either), but you're a newbie so I'll stop laughing long enough to explain why that isn't true:

Arcanum was Troika's first game, and the only game of theirs that had a very very healthy profit. Arcanum was financially successful, and was their highest selling game by a long margin.

So no, it wasn't a flop that destroyed Troika. It wasn't even a flop. It made a lot of money - I don't have links, but if you do a search of the Dex you'll find an interview with one of the founders giving their sales and profits for each game.

ToEE dipped, and was their weakest title. VtM:B ended up selling ok, but had a very slow start due to being unplayable at release.
No.

They started the initial design in 1998 on a steampunk/fantasy crossover computer RPG named Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and convinced Sierra Entertainment to publish it. The game was launched on August 21, 2001. While criticized for being unpolished and having a bad combat engine, it received in general favorable reviews with an average of 81% on Metacritic.[3] With 234,000 units sold it is, to this date, Troika's best selling game.

After Arcanum was released in 2001, two teams start to work on two separate games. One team created The Temple of Elemental Evil for publisher Atari which was released on the September 26, 2003. It was lauded for the good implementation of the D&D 3.5 system but overall it got mixed reviews due to gameplay bugs and lack of a plot. With a 71% on Metacritic it was the lowest rated Troika game.[4] It sold about 128,000 units.[5]

The other team worked for Activision on Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines. Using an early version of the Source engine, development was finished in October 2004. Due to contractual obligations with Valve Corporation, Activision was not allowed to release the game before Valve released Half-Life 2, scheduled for release in November 2004. Troika Games used the interim period to code a patch into the main program. Bloodlines was released on November 16, 2004 (the same day as Half Life 2). Critics praised Bloodlines' visual, audio and story but warned about a bug-ridden game. It got a rating of 80% on Metacritic,[6] and sold merely 72,000 units.[5]
"No" followed by a copy-paste from wiki? Seriously?

Andrew (Troika employee): "This is incorrect [the numbers from the wiki]. By a signficant factor. I was there when the royalty checks came in, and Arcanum did much better than that. I do not think the publisher would have written checks for copies that they hadn't sold.

I never heard a final number on ToEE, as I wasn't directly involved in it, but the number I recall for its first-month sales was more than this article claims it did overall.

I do not know any numbers on Vampire, but I do know what I think of this source's accuracy."
...

Leon: "I don't have any actual numbers at hand (nor do I know whether I can reveal numbers per our contract, since I don't have that with me at the moment either), but to the best of my knowledge, ToEE was our best seller - or at least our fastest. The reason it's difficult to say is because our numbers were often being adjusted after the fact for arcane business reasons (on the publisher's end). I believe Arcanum is close to ToEE in sales, but Arcanum has been out alot longer and is at a much lower price point. Vampire hasn't been out long enough to really judge how well it will eventually do, as our games tend to continue to sell (as do all RPGs) longer than most. "

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6612
 
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"..our games tend to continue to sell (as do all RPGs) longer than most. "

Anyone else remember games, especially CRPG's, used to hold their value for a long time in the 80's and early 90's? They might drop by 5 or ten quid over a couple of years, but that was the limit. Ultima 3, which was released in '83 or '84 was still almost the same price it came out for in 1988. Same with Strategy and Wargames.
 
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So, the mechafag game has sold the best? Cool.

Blackadder said:
"..our games tend to continue to sell (as do all RPGs) longer than most. "

Anyone else remember games, especially CRPG's, used to hold their value for a long time in the 80's and early 90's? They might drop by 5 or ten quid over a couple of years, but that was the limit. Ultima 3, which was released in '83 or '84 was still almost the same price it came out for in 1988. Same with Strategy and Wargames.
It's probably because they were re-releasing full versions of the games instead of cutting them down. Personally, I wouldn't mind such sales model as long as they would adjust regional prices.

Fuck, when it comes to a full version of Fallout, I'd probably pay even these fucking 165PLN.
 

Volourn

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"Ok, I was wrong about ToEE flopping, but right about Arcanum being a success (and Troika not failing due to flops, but lack of a publishing deal)."

Bullshit. All 3 games were flops. Noi way no how do publishersm pass up on games by a developer who had 'successful' games. The reason why Troika didn't get any publishing deal is because of flops.

3 different publishers. 3 different games. 3 flops. Period.
 
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Awor Szurkrarz said:
So, the mechafag game has sold the best? Cool.

Blackadder said:
"..our games tend to continue to sell (as do all RPGs) longer than most. "

Anyone else remember games, especially CRPG's, used to hold their value for a long time in the 80's and early 90's? They might drop by 5 or ten quid over a couple of years, but that was the limit. Ultima 3, which was released in '83 or '84 was still almost the same price it came out for in 1988. Same with Strategy and Wargames.
It's probably because they were re-releasing full versions of the games instead of cutting them down. Personally, I wouldn't mind such sales model as long as they would adjust regional prices.

Fuck, when it comes to a full version of Fallout, I'd probably pay even these fucking 165PLN.

Yes, they were still the full version. Now and again, there would be budget versions from certain companies (EA is the big one actually. SSI also did this) that would be sold in plastic covers, the only difference however being that the manual, codewheel, etc were in black and white instead of colour. This would knock the price down about a third from the original version if memory serves.

The budget versions though (even up to the 'Hit Squad' releases in the early 90's) had full colour maps still. My first version of Magic Candle 2 was a HS version, and the map is still full size in colour, while the manual has a cheaper cover but nevertheless well printed in black and white.
 
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Volourn said:
"Ok, I was wrong about ToEE flopping, but right about Arcanum being a success (and Troika not failing due to flops, but lack of a publishing deal)."

Bullshit. All 3 games were flops. Noi way no how do publishersm pass up on games by a developer who had 'successful' games. The reason why Troika didn't get any publishing deal is because of flops.

3 different publishers. 3 different games. 3 flops. Period.

Stop being a moron. They were not mass sale games like the Sims etc, but they were profitable. If they were not, then the company would have closed down for reasons other than publishers not accepting their next gaming ideas.

This is one of the main reasons behind the decline, in a nutshell. A game has to be a huge hit, otherwise, not interested, get on yer bike. Idiots like Volourn obviously support this corporate stupidity, in spite of this attitude destroying many a publisher and developer. After all, making a hit usually means stepping outside a comfort zone and trying to grab an incredibly fickle market. If you don't grab that market, you don't have a small to medium profit (because your main fanbase are not interested anymore), you go down the tube. Hits usually cost a lot of money to make too.
 

Volourn

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"Stop being a moron. They were not mass sale games like the Sims etc, but they were profitable. If they were not, then the company would have closed down for reasons other than publishers not accepting their next gaming ideas. "

Don't be an idiot. theb games were failures. if they were successes, publishers would have had no problem buying more shit of from Troika.

Troika's games are failures. It's the 'ol three strikes and yer OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop living in fantasy land where Troika was an actual successful company. they weren't. Period.

3 strikes and yer outttttttt!!!
 

hoochimama

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With the current teen(and young adult) vampire craze I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find investors for a vampire game.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Yeah but there's little chance of getting an oWoD game published at this point; WW is too invested into their new settings. And I'm just not interested in those.
 
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Azrael the cat said:
Kosmonaut said:
Could anybody tell me in a very detailed way, or point me to a review or analysis, why did Arcanum combat sucked? Why is widely considered a badly implemented combat? Thanks.

Whats with the recent trend of demanding 'objective evidence' of a predominantly subjective issue? Will pointing out reviews really answer anything? Reviewers aren't exactly held as paragons of strategic judgment around these parts. If the question was about popular perceptions, rather than actuality, then reviews might be relevant.

But all I've ever said was I couldn't stand the combat. And when others complain about the combat, by and large that's what they mean. I'm yet to encounter anyone who says 'I hated the combat, but objectively it's really awesome!!!'. Or 'I loved the combat, but objectively it's shite!!!'. What most of us mean by 'combat is crap' is that 'my god I found that combat to be really dull compared to similar TB games', and it just so happens there's a fair few people on the Dex (and it seems 'in general) that had the same experience.

No amount of pseudo-objective argument (I say pseudo because we're talking about a pure entertainment issue - if we were judging artistic merit or strategic difficulty, objective arguments would be more sensible) can change my subjective experience.

Did I asked for an objective evidence, dumbfuck? I only asked if somebody could tell me in detail, the issues with Arcanum combat. And I wasn't refering to your comments, I asked this because whenever an Arcanum thread comes to life, the comments about the bad quality of the combat invariably surface.

Obviously, this is very subjective. I never claimed otherwise.

Jesus, what the fuck is your problem? Moron.

Objective != Detailed, you piece of shit pretentious fag.
 
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Volourn said:
"Stop being a moron. They were not mass sale games like the Sims etc, but they were profitable. If they were not, then the company would have closed down for reasons other than publishers not accepting their next gaming ideas. "

Don't be an idiot. theb games were failures. if they were successes, publishers would have had no problem buying more shit of from Troika.

Troika's games are failures. It's the 'ol three strikes and yer OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop living in fantasy land where Troika was an actual successful company. they weren't. Period.

3 strikes and yer outttttttt!!!

This is possibly the poorest comeback I have seen from you to date. You were playing the older games, are you suggesting that every CRPG game from those days were failures? You must be, because none of them garnered as many sales as even the worst selling Troika game. And considering CRPG's were one of the biggest sellers in the 80's and early 90's, this doesn't say much for your judgement.

The publishers changed the rules and stifled anything that isn't a next gen hit. Just admit it instead of fighting until the bitter end for kredits.
 

Volourn

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"They were successful, because they made at least one game that I liked. Can't say the same about 90% of all other "successful" game companies out there."

You must be arrogantly delusional. I liked 2 of the 3 games Troika made and I know for a fact that all three were failures.

NEWSFLASH: Troika wasn't making games for just us two, moran.


"This is possibly the poorest comeback I have seen from you to date. You were playing the older games, are you suggesting that every CRPG game from those days were failures? You must be, because none of them garnered as many sales as even the worst selling Troika game. And considering CRPG's were one of the biggest sellers in the 80's and early 90's, this doesn't say much for your judgement.

The publishers changed the rules and stifled anything that isn't a next gen hit. Just admit it instead of fighting until the bitter end for kredits."

What a tool. You never ehard of inflation. Once upon a time, before Jaws hit the theatres, a successful movie only needed to make a decent amount to be successful. With Jaws came the blockbuster where $100M became the new standard. Currently, $100M making movies are laughed at, and you need $200M to be considred a true blockbuster.

FFS Superman returns made in the nighberhood of $200M and is by those in the know considered a flop. FFS

You can't comapre how much copies Troika's early to mid 200s games sold to those games made a decade before. FFS

The gaming market has gotten way bigger than it used to be, and games are much more expensive to produce.

Example: JE has old between 1.5-2M copies since its release and its basically considered BIO's unwanted stechild espicially comapred to their other games which have sold 2M+ (or hell 3M+ for DA and ME2). Yet, SS and MDK2 (both early BIO games) sold less than JE and were consisered solid sellers. LMFAO

Fuckin' new fag codexers are fuckin' morans and makings way too fuckin' easy for us old fag codexers.

:rpgcodex:
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Lockkaliber said:
Other than that, I agree that arcanum would be the best cRPG to date if it had a better combat system.
Someone should remake Arcanum using FIFE. :( Remaking Fallout is pointless.

Volourn said:
You can't comapre how much copies Troika's early to mid 200s[sic] games sold to those games made a decade before. FFS

...

Example: JE has old between 1.5-2M copies since its release and its basically considered BIO's unwanted stechild espicially comapred to their other games which have sold 2M+ (or hell 3M+ for DA and ME2). Yet, SS and MDK2 (both early BIO games) sold less than JE and were consisered solid sellers. LMFAO
Diablo II sold 4+ million copies by 2001, just sayin'.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Xor said:
Yeah but there's little chance of getting an oWoD game published at this point; WW is too invested into their new settings. And I'm just not interested in those.
I for one would love a Promethean game.
 

Jim Cojones

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Volourn said:
You can't comapre how much copies Troika's early to mid 200s games sold to those games made a decade before. FFS

The gaming market has gotten way bigger than it used to be, and games are much more expensive to produce.

Example: JE has old between 1.5-2M copies since its release and its basically considered BIO's unwanted stechild espicially comapred to their other games which have sold 2M+ (or hell 3M+ for DA and ME2). Yet, SS and MDK2 (both early BIO games) sold less than JE and were consisered solid sellers. LMFAO
Completely different situation, even less related than an example of games being made 10 years before. Jade Empire had 47 animators and artists only working full time and another ~10 part time. I'm not going to count others but with programmers and designers the number should easily go above 100. The whole Troika's Arcanum team consisted of 12 people + 4 working on contract jobs.
 

Roguey

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Blackadder said:
You must be, because none of them garnered as many sales as even the worst selling Troika game. And considering CRPG's were one of the biggest sellers in the 80's and early 90's, this doesn't say much for your judgement.
I'm not entirely sure about this. The back of the Wizardry Gold box claims the seven Wizardy games to date had sold a combined total of over 5 million, which is a pretty nice roughly 700,000/title average. Of course 8 was a flop and I got a nose-cutting thrill out of seeing Linda and Ian Currie publically begging anyone to keep the Wiz8 team intact. Serves them right for not giving Cleve the respect he deserved.
 

Volourn

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"Diablo II sold 4+ million copies by 2001, just sayin'."

Blockbusters are blockbusters. Just sayin'.
 
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Jim Cojones said:
Volourn said:
You can't comapre how much copies Troika's early to mid 200s games sold to those games made a decade before. FFS

The gaming market has gotten way bigger than it used to be, and games are much more expensive to produce.

Example: JE has old between 1.5-2M copies since its release and its basically considered BIO's unwanted stechild espicially comapred to their other games which have sold 2M+ (or hell 3M+ for DA and ME2). Yet, SS and MDK2 (both early BIO games) sold less than JE and were consisered solid sellers. LMFAO
Completely different situation, even less related than an example of games being made 10 years before. Jade Empire had 47 animators and artists only working full time and another ~10 part time. I'm not going to count others but with programmers and designers the number should easily go above 100. The whole Troika's Arcanum team consisted of 12 people + 4 working on contract jobs.

My point exactly. The Goldbox games had more people working on them than Troika did on their games.
 

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