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Can We Get Another Turn-Based CRPG Already?

VentilatorOfDoom

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Can We Get Another Turn-Based CRPG Already?

<p>Bits 'n' Bytes have put up an editorial, <a href="http://bnbgaming.com/2011/02/10/can-we-get-another-turn-based-crpg-already/" target="_blank">a lament for a dead friend</a> - the turnbased cRPG.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>It&rsquo;s actually been done to some degree recently. The Japanese company Atlus has released a series of games called Etrian Odyssey and another title called The Dark Spire for the Nintendo DS, both of which employ these very same grid-based maps and turn-based combat mechanics. Despite being solid games of this genre, both Etrian Odyssey and The Dark Spire are deigned with a very hard-core audience in mind. Unfortunately, these games cast aside the story and atmosphere of the classic games for a strong emphasis on dungeon-crawls and monster slaying. They can be grueling in their difficulty, and are ideal for such personality traits as OCD.

They&rsquo;re a step in the right direction, but perhaps (at the risk of sounding mildly xenophobic) they would benefit from a Western touch. The Might and Magic titles Clouds of Xeen and Darkside of Xeen for example could be combined into a massive game world so large, that you could spend weeks exploring the environment and not see half the content. This includes massive skyroads built upon the clouds with cities and villages, two sides of a huge floating landmass with deserts, forests, mountains and swamps, many dungeons such as caves, towers, castles, sewers, etc. Hundreds of monster types, thousands of items, countless npcs&hellip; the list can go on. The Atlus titles touch upon this, but will fail to hold the attention of all but a very core gaming block, one I myself am not a part of.

It seems a lost cause, I know. Most gamers these days don&rsquo;t even know about this style of RPG, and many would point out that these &ldquo;outdated&rdquo; mechanics are exactly what kept the larger public away from videogames and helped create the stereotype of the basement dwelling uber-geek. But someone out there with the know-how, start-up company, and love for classic RPGs must exist. Maybe the gods of CRPGs will hear my call and deliver a true modern version of these titles with all the bells and whistles I want to see. In the meantime, I guess I can go on enjoying the excellent RPGs of the current age.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>To answer your question: no, we can't. Because RPGs have evolved into having shooter combat which doesn't work too well in turn-based. But I have an argument in favor of turn-based combat. We all know that the graphics are the most important aspect of all cRPGs, right? And kickass animations, e.g. spell effects, usually come in the way of fast paced action combat. They only disturb. But in turn-based you could really show off your awesome gfx effects, right? So, doing turn-based and doing kick-ass spell animations might be the one thing that could decide the <a href="http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=55622" target="_blank">battle for the bestest graphics</a>. Any thoughts? BioWare? CDProjekt?</p>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/101554-can-we-get-another-turn-based-crpg-already.html">Gamebanshee</a></p>
 

hanssolo

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Yeah, those japanese made Wizardry clones totally need a western touch, only one town?!? TOO MUCH JAP FAGGOTRY FOR ME!
 

Roguey

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Doom RPG is a turn-based first person shooter and it was pretty well received. Probably only because it's a mobile phone game.

This guy is weird. He thinks Lands of Lore is turn-based and he hates difficult games (calling them "ideal for such personality traits as OCD") but cites Wizardry as an example of what he's talking about. I think he just wants another Might and Magic.
 

Hobo Elf

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He's right about Etrian Odyssey. It's not a particularly hard game, but it requires a shitload of grind, making it an ideal game for people with OCDs.
 

Miew

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Hobo Elf said:
He's right about Etrian Odyssey. It's not a particularly hard game, but it requires a shitload of grind, making it an ideal game for people with OCDs.

You don't need to grind that much in Etrian Odyssey. Perhaps a level or two, once in a while. Of course if you do grind like hell, then it's obvious the game willl be easy. Beating the same bosses with a lower level is more challenging and fun.

Actually, Etrian Odyssey has been the most fun I've had with an RPG in a while. Although I'm not sure if I'd play it as much as I do if it wasn't on a handheld, where I can play on the train and such.

Drawing the maps is pretty fun, too. But then again: You can turn off even to most basic automapping (coloring the squares you stepped on), but since the game still displays your position on the grid, you can never get lost in the dungeon anyways. So mapping really comes down to paying attention not to draw a wall where there isn't one. Still, it's a nice little quirk.
The childlike graphics might turn off a few people though.

The Dark Spire on the other hand, lets you choose between what looks to me like CGA palette graphics (I hate those colors) and really wizardry looking white lines, which I actually prefer. TDS doesn't display your position in the dungeon, although it does automap, so one way to find out where you are (as long as you haven't mapped the whole place) is to move and see where it uncovered the map. The biggest annoyance imo, is that you don't get to see the map on one of the screens permantly, instead requiring you to switch to the map screen all the time. Even if you drew your on maps on a sheet of paper you could look at them while navigating the dungeon... it's so annoying.
Besides, there's only 4 classes, and 4 characters at most in a party, which is kind of boring. Etrian Odyssey gives a lot more freedom there, with about ten or so classes which each allow for different builds. There's also a little bit trial and error with which skills work well, which I enjoy.

If you can stand the anime chibi style graphics, take a look at Etrian Odyssey. Otherwise there's still Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey, which is a dungeon crawler as well. Automapping and all that, but it's fun because your party constantly changes as you aquire new demons, so the game doesn't get stale. At least that's how I feel about it.

Btw. "they would benefit from a Western touch" in respect to The Dark Spire? Who'd guess it's of japanese origin by looking just at the graphics? It looks nothing like typical japanese games...
 
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VoD said:
But in turn-based you could really show off your awesome gfx effects, right? So, doing turn-based and doing kick-ass spell animations might be the one thing that could decide the battle for the bestest graphics.

I predict this will be the next grand evolution of rpgs, bringing a much necessary innovation for the genre, Bethesda did (will do?) it again, etc
 

Black Cat

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Unfortunately, these games cast aside the story and atmosphere of the classic games for a strong emphasis on dungeon-crawls and monster slaying.

:retarded:

Someone really needs to shut the fuck up.

Edit:

Hobo Elf said:
He's right about Etrian Odyssey. It's not a particularly hard game, but it requires a shitload of grind, making it an ideal game for people with OCDs.

Not really. You only need to grind if your initial party sucks, given you need to get the new people up to the other's level, or if you want to use one of the unlockable classes, for the same reason. Or, well, if you want to use those two weird options. I don't remember the name, the one that lets you respec but gets you ten levels or so behind and the one that takes you back to ultra low level but with bonuses on posterior level ups.

Outside of that, and giving space for just one or two levels here and there to get things moving, the fun of the game is about actually defeating the levels and the bosses with your party as it is. If you have to grind you are doing it wrong.
 

Xor

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Most turn based RPGs that come out nowadays are japanese dungeon crawlers, and it seems like those are released exclusively on handhelds. It's like publishers are afraid to release turn based games for the consoles or something.
 

Virtual Vice

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"But I have an argument in favor of turn-based combat. We all know that the graphics are the most important aspect of all cRPGs, right? And kickass animations, e.g. spell effects, usually come in the way of fast paced action combat. They only disturb. But in turn-based you could really show off your awesome gfx effects, right? So, doing turn-based and doing kick-ass spell animations might be the one thing that could decide the battle for the bestest graphics. Any thoughts? BioWare? CDProjekt?"

This.

I mean its only logical and it has surely occured to alot of people interested in the genre over and over again.
The funny thing is that with fast animations and an interface that allows the player to choose from a large variety of attack options with only a couple of mouse clicks or shortcut key presses the pacing and flow of the combat might actually be BETTER than a realtime with pause system, at least if character movement is handled as swiftly by the game's interface as the attack options.

Phased combat is also a strong possibility for this kind of potential combination of uber awesome attack animations and visual effects etc with fast choices of character combat actions and movement.

DA already has implement a design element ( another one that has surely occured to alot of people before) that would integrate very well with a turn based system that allows for lots of close up eye candy, the option to quickly switch to a zoomed out topdown camera, which allows the player to get a tactical overview of the combat area and the enemies, and then imput the PC's actions. Simpy integrate the party control interface well with that kind of zoomed out overview camera, and then have the game system switch to more or less zoomed in cameras to display the action, the animations, spell effects etc in all their newgen glory.
 

commie

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Yeah so now to get a TB crawler fix I have to walk around looking like a fucktard(in before 'you already look like one') squinting at some tiny screen on a handheld while people snigger at the old cunt playing his kiddie game that he probably stole from his son!
 

Volourn

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"Unfortunately, these games cast aside the story and atmosphere of the classic games for a strong emphasis on dungeon-crawls and monster slaying. "

Is he retarted? The number of classic turn based RPgs that focused on story as opposed to combat is absolutely minimal. Moran.
 

Black Cat

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commie said:
Yeah so now to get a TB crawler fix I have to walk around looking like a fucktard(in before 'you already look like one') squinting at some tiny screen on a handheld while people snigger at the old cunt playing his kiddie game that he probably stole from his son!

Emulator + ROMs + barely modern PC = Fullscreen DS games, if that's your thing.
 
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commie said:
Yeah so now to get a TB crawler fix I have to walk around looking like a fucktard(in before 'you already look like one') squinting at some tiny screen on a handheld while people snigger at the old cunt playing his kiddie game that he probably stole from his son!

You don't HAVE to play it in the middle of the street, you know. The newer DS models removed the feature that gave the player shocks at regular intervals if the solar sensor detected you were indoors.
 

Topher

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I gave up on Etrian Odyssey because it stared to feel really repetitive and the challenge came from non-stop encounter instead of interesting encounters and I gave up on Dark Spire because the quests felt unintuitive. I never knew what I needed to do or how to do it and so I was constantly resorting to a walk-through. I don't mind a little hard work but that every quest in that game felt way to obscure and didn't seem to offer any decent reward for the effort.

I was enjoying the combat and leveling up characters in both but there was too much repetition and I got burned out.
 

Zeus

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CRPGs had turn-based combat because of Dungeons & Dragons. These days everything is based on World of Warcraft , which doesn't have turn-based combat. (Even D&D 4E was inspired by WoW. The only reason 4E wasn't real time is because the DM could not compute and it would turn into a slap fight.)

The day WoW goes turn-based is the day everyone begins work on huge budget turn-based RPGs.
 

sgc_meltdown

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Virtual Vice said:
I mean its only logical and it has surely occured to alot of people interested in the genre over and over again.

You can do everything you want to improve the flow of combat and gamers will still say that having to take turns as well as manage individual party members in something that happens in real time is immersion breaking and outdated design. The nearest you can go for AAA titles is to have a real time with pause system with all the drawbacks and awesome moments that it entails
:thumbsup:

Right now the only way to have anything hugely successful and turn based is to outsource the artwork to korea, fill it with five billion stats and abilities, cutesy monsters and party members that appeal to broad sexual orientations, unlockable costumes and items with bonuses that go into the triple digits. And perhaps rape.

Zeus said:
The day WoW goes turn-based is the day everyone begins work on huge budget turn-based RPGs.

Yeeeeaaah I'll like to see how games journalists handle the task of saying how turn based is suddenly great again and makes real time boring after that.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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The Codex said:
Dark Spire... Etrian Odyssey
Sometimes these threads make me curious, I mean : Turn based RPG with good combat and character leveling up ?
So I Google the shit up, and come up with this :

etrian_odyssey_enemy.jpg

etrian-odyssey-ii-heroes-of-lagaard.jpg


Le fuck ?

Dark Spire looks much better tbh.
 

Zeus

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sgc_meltdown said:
Zeus said:
The day WoW goes turn-based is the day everyone begins work on huge budget turn-based RPGs.

Yeeeeaaah I'll like to see how games journalists handle the task of saying how turn based is suddenly great again and makes real time boring after that.

Like so:

"TURN-BASED IS BACK!"

Cue picture of an Tauren Shaman with a big, "Attack / Spell / Item / Run" menu on the cover.
 

Crooked Bee

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Etrian Odyssey may look silly, but the skill trees are surprisingly good, and as Black Cat said, you don't really have to grind a lot if you take the right approach to party building. Then again, most people cite "art direction" or something no less weird as the reason they don't feel like playing EO, which totally escapes me as I find the western art style no less immature and stupid ("gritty" and "mature", lol). I mean, those are games. Games are stupid, it's a totally childish pastime. Why care what the monsters you're slaying look like? The monster slaying process itself must be fun and challenging, and that's that. There's no difference between a pokemon and a dark elf; both are silly, both, however, can be fun and appropriate in a game with good gameplay.

Topher said:
Dark Spire because the quests felt unintuitive. I never knew what I needed to do or how to do it and so I was constantly resorting to a walk-through. I don't mind a little hard work but that every quest in that game felt way to obscure and didn't seem to offer any decent reward for the effort.

Well, to me, Dark Spire may pretty well be the best game, with the best puzzles, I've played lately -- and I think precisely for the reason you find it objectional. It has that hardcore adventure game feel that you (okay, I) can't but fall in love with. Sure, there's nothing intuitive in those puzzles, you never know which items you're going to use and in which circumstances, but that's what makes it even cooler when you finally solve one. You go around different levels collecting (or sometimes buying) a lot of specific items like, say, sunflower seeds, which you must then use in very specific circumstances -- without any hints, of course -- like assemble a new item from them, or play dress-up to pass as a pirate, or conduct a necromancy ritual, or even make a squirrel drunk in order to capture it. Cool stuff.
 

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