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From the Escapist- RPGs that are good for what they are.

Hobo Elf

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Re: From the Escapist- RPGs that are good for what they are

hoverdog said:
Hobo Elf said:
Kaanyrvhok said:
Encounters
Baldur's Gate 1&2
Fallout 1 and 2

What the..?
encounters in BG were really good, it was the combat system that didn't really work. Baldur's encounter system + TOEE combat system = HEAVAN

Not really. BG1 encounters amounted to a shitton of mook spam, which was boring. Couple memorable fights. Mostly the 2 demons that came with TotSC. Now I may be biased as I'm not a fan of high level D&D, but BG2 encounters weren't exactly smart either. They couldn't figure out how to balance encoutners at that level without adding Wizards, so that's exactly what they did. Added more Wizards.
Flaws with the IE engine and flaws with the D&D rules brought down the combat.
 

easychord

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The Escapist forums are full of kids who came there because Yahtzee is so edgy and mature but don't realise that they should be posting on Something Awful to get the full experience of the world weary twenty something self proclaimed sage.

And I agree that BG1 combat encounters are mostly cheese and killer DM nonsense.
 

Jaesun

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easychord said:
And I agree that BG1 combat encounters are mostly cheese and killer DM nonsense.

Then what did have good encounter design?

Compared to the shit we get now, it's a fucking masterpiece of combat encounter design.
 

easychord

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Jaesun said:
Then what did have good encounter design?

PS:T had better encounter design than BG1. The last RPG I played briefly before it gave me motion sickness was King's Field IV but that isn't a recent RPG but better combat encounters. I don't know about good recent RPGs, too much Irish Whisky in my system to concentrate on such an arcane and devious proposition. Final Fantasy X-2 had better encounters than BG1.
 

Topher

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I've never played an RPG that had good overall design for every encounter. Most games, like Baldurs Gate, have a good chuck of filler combat broken up by more distinct set-piece battles. Keeping that in mind I'd say that BG had good encounter design. I enjoyed the set-piece battles and it didn't have what I felt was an over abundance of trash mobs. Trash mobs have a place in RPG design; filler combat doesn't and I make a distinction between the two.

*Also, I though the encounter design in PS:T was comparable to BG. Why is it that your making such a distinction?
 

easychord

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My problem with the encounters in BG is that the "set piece" combat was not telegraphed properly so that the most dangerous player killing encounters just sort of happened and needed you to roll a munchkin party or exploit the game to win. This was not a problem in PS:T or other games I mentioned although I think that PS:T maybe had a certain munchkin tendency in terms of gaming the stats to make the nameless one uber at talking but that didn't bother me.

Fallout and VtM:BL were superior, I think...
 

Topher

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easychord said:
My problem with the encounters in BG is that the "set piece" combat was not telegraphed properly so that the most dangerous player killing encounters just sort of happened and needed you to roll a munchkin party or exploit the game to win. This was not a problem in PS:T or other games I mentioned although I think that PS:T maybe had a certain munchkin tendency in terms of gaming the stats to make the nameless one uber at talking but that didn't bother me.

Fallout and VtM:BL were superior, I think...

I don't remember needing anything close to a muchkin party at any point in the BG series. Care to refresh my memory a bit? I haven't completed VtM:BL so I will refrain from any comments on that but I do remember PS:T quite well and I remember an abundance of filler combat near the end surpassing anything I recall from BG1 but that wasn't an issue during the first 2/3rd's of the game so I never minded. I do remember getting a bit tired of combat near the end of BG1 as well but my memories a bit fuzzy... something about a bunch of fights back to back to back.
 

Kaanyrvhok

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I'll explain some of my questionable choices

BG got the nod for encounters. Why? Its the opposite of Dragon Age. There was rarely too many enemies. There might have been too many Doplegangers under Candelkeep thats about it. When you fought the Iron Throne you just walk into their house and fight them. You find where they stay and go into their house. You can even talk to their bartender before you walk upstairs and fight. I can name a bunch of good encounters. There was fight in the underground brothel, the dart master, the winter wolf with the treasure hoard, the guy with the pet Bassilisk, the wizard with the captive nyph and the Davaeorn fight.


Mass Effect 2 get the nod for dialog because wits so high risk. I give them credit. They went for it. It wasn't flat. I would say it was certainly better than a B movie like the D&D flick.


Oblivion gets the sim AI nod for its level of unpredictability. Ever so often there was a fight in the streets. I ran into a guy that I was in jail with walking from Leyawinn to Bravil. Ive told the story many times of the guy on the horse that fell off a bridge and killed someone below. Also I thought the chatter was kinda funny. Two ladies gossiping about someone who trains for heavy armor was so stupid it was funny. Same with the voice acting. The matter of fact presentation worked for me. The racism of Leyawinn was funny in how it was delivered.

Oblivion's quest were a matter of quantity over quality until you look at the top ten. I'll take the top ten Oblivion quest over any RPG next to Pool of Radiance and admit to some gold box nostalgia. Few RPGs offer any meaningful choices in how you want to approach a quest and even fewer offer any meaningful consequences. Oblivion had some with choices and none with consequences but they were very good quest. The 1st and last thieves guild quest were excellent, there was one great mage guild quest, there was an excellent shrine quest where you have to zap peoples clothes off in a dinner party, there was a quest inside a magical painting, the paranoia quest was great. The major problem is the scaled loot didnt reward completion. So if you factor loot its not on the list.
 

GarfunkeL

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easychord said:
My problem with the encounters in BG is that the "set piece" combat was not telegraphed properly so that the most dangerous player killing encounters just sort of happened and needed you to roll a munchkin party or exploit the game to win.

Not true - either your memory is faulty or you had some really bad luck. All the difficult, end-of-the-chapter fights are telegraphed very clearly. Only some of the assassins come totally as a surprise and even then you can always run away unless you get immediately stunned or something. The random monster encounters in the wilderness usually weren't that challenging not to mention that you are supposed to be scouting with your rogue or ranger anyway, to avoid nasty surprises.
 

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