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Storytelling in Games: Part 1

VentilatorOfDoom

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<p>IGN <a href="http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/115/1159020p1.html" target="_blank">started a series of articles</a> in which they quiz developers on the topic "Storytelling in games". There are even a few RPG developers to be found in there:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>CD Projekt - Tomasz Gop, Senior Producer:</strong>

It's expensive. Creating a non-linear game does not even have an equivalent in movies, for example. Same for interactivity. And I think we finally have games that really tell stories in the first place. Those cases actually do resemble an interesting, interactive book. Like a good read, but it's more read-and-write at the same time.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And another one:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>BioWare - Casey Hudson, Executive Producer:</strong>

I think at this point, the medium is capable of the same sophistication in storytelling as other mediums. In some ways though, the interactive nature of a videogame story adds an extra dimension that makes much greater demands on the creators. For Mass Effect 3 for example, we've got a story that will have to start from a variety of different positions based on either a new game or decisions left over from playing the previous games. It will then need to continue branching multidimensionally as players shape the story with moment to moment decisions. But as technically complex as this is, we still need the end result to feel as artfully crafted as a memorable novel or motion picture.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Branching multidimensionally sounds cool. So far they reflected upon decisions left over from previous games using a bunch of emails. So all this branching will be a nice step forward.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/103189-storytelling-in-games-part-one.html">Gamebanshee</a></p>
 

Country_Gravy

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BioWare - "It took us years to develop games with the complications of a choose your own adventure story where each choice has you turn to the same page."
 

Topher

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...and people wonder why Bioware games are so goddamn stale, just look at how they talk.
 

sea

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I think it's kind of funny how they talk about "multidimensional stories" yet they're all pretty much 100% linear and all that changes are a few dialogue points. Not that it's easy to coordinate all the choices and consequences, as minor as they may be, but it's still hardly what I'd call "multidimensional", "freeform" or whatever buzzword you like to use.
 

Gord

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Purely technical issues aside, there will always be the problem that whoever develops the game wants to tell a certain story.
There's only so much freedom for the player if you are intended to discover this story over the course of the game.

Without any kind of advanced AI capable of (re-)creating a game's story on the fly this won't change.

But actually I am already happy with a good and captivating story, doesn't need to be "multidimensional".

Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
 

SuicideBunny

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Casey Hudson said:
I think at this point, the medium is capable of the same sophistication in storytelling as other mediums.
sounds like pure graphic-whorism.
 

sea

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Gord said:
Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
I agree. Too bad this is basically the only such example in the game. And even though you can choose more or less how to save Arl Eamon, the fact is that the sacrifice you make is ultimately pretty insignificant; it's not like he can die or someting, requiring a different method of advancing the story. No matter what you do, all the paths converge to the same point. It's choice and consequence, but the consequences still aren't very important or interesting in the long run.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
sea said:
Gord said:
Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
I agree. Too bad this is basically the only such example in the game. And even though you can choose more or less how to save Arl Eamon, the fact is that the sacrifice you make is ultimately pretty insignificant; it's not like he can die or someting, requiring a different method of advancing the story. No matter what you do, all the paths converge to the same point. It's choice and consequence, but the consequences still aren't very important or interesting in the long run.

I honestly see no real difference between DA c&c and fallout c&c. Sure, in fallout you could give up and join the master (and get dunked in fev iirc), but it was no different from you getting killed for all the difference it makes. Other than that DA had faction battles (elves vs werewolves compared to shady sands vs khans) which have similar effects on the game world. The problem with DA wasn't lack of c&c, it's that the story was shitty and boring (Fallout's was serviceable).
 

Serious_Business

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Mastermind said:
sea said:
Gord said:
Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
I agree. Too bad this is basically the only such example in the game. And even though you can choose more or less how to save Arl Eamon, the fact is that the sacrifice you make is ultimately pretty insignificant; it's not like he can die or someting, requiring a different method of advancing the story. No matter what you do, all the paths converge to the same point. It's choice and consequence, but the consequences still aren't very important or interesting in the long run.

I honestly see no real difference between DA c&c and fallout c&c. Sure, in fallout you could give up and join the master (and get dunked in fev iirc), but it was no different from you getting killed for all the difference it makes. Other than that DA had faction battles (elves vs werewolves compared to shady sands vs khans) which have similar effects on the game world. The problem with DA wasn't lack of c&c, it's that the story was shitty and boring (Fallout's was serviceable).

Yes, but you're forgetting that the C&C in Fallout also has another side - namely, your character build matters. In fact, I think proper C&C shouldn't be about making choices in the game, but having options opened or closed depending on how your character is built.
 

Mangoose

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Serious_Business said:
Yes, but you're forgetting that the C&C in Fallout also has another side - namely, your character build matters. In fact, I think proper C&C shouldn't be about making choices in the game, but having options opened or closed depending on how your character is built.
:thumbsup:

Edit: Picture is funnier when I remember that I'm also Asian.
 

J1M

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Gord said:
Purely technical issues aside, there will always be the problem that whoever develops the game wants to tell a certain story.
There's only so much freedom for the player if you are intended to discover this story over the course of the game.

Without any kind of advanced AI capable of (re-)creating a game's story on the fly this won't change.

But actually I am already happy with a good and captivating story, doesn't need to be "multidimensional".

Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
This problem is solved by hiring people who want to write characters instead of people who write failed screenplays.
 

J1M

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Serious_Business said:
Mastermind said:
sea said:
Gord said:
Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
I agree. Too bad this is basically the only such example in the game. And even though you can choose more or less how to save Arl Eamon, the fact is that the sacrifice you make is ultimately pretty insignificant; it's not like he can die or someting, requiring a different method of advancing the story. No matter what you do, all the paths converge to the same point. It's choice and consequence, but the consequences still aren't very important or interesting in the long run.

I honestly see no real difference between DA c&c and fallout c&c. Sure, in fallout you could give up and join the master (and get dunked in fev iirc), but it was no different from you getting killed for all the difference it makes. Other than that DA had faction battles (elves vs werewolves compared to shady sands vs khans) which have similar effects on the game world. The problem with DA wasn't lack of c&c, it's that the story was shitty and boring (Fallout's was serviceable).

Yes, but you're forgetting that the C&C in Fallout also has another side - namely, your character build matters. In fact, I think proper C&C shouldn't be about making choices in the game, but having options opened or closed depending on how your character is built.
Don't be a fag, it's both.
 

sgc_meltdown

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This talk on DA versus Fallout C&C remind me of one of my old posts.

Basically even if they have such things in their game, designers are only paying lipservice to C&C via choices and consequences with shallow results.

Oh you decided to do so and so to the ashes. Well what happens is the ending slide picture and blurb changes and your party members like or don't like you more. Hurrah!

Vault Dweller said:
Now, what do people praise Arcanum for? Deep tactical combat? Fuck no. Stylish visuals? Nope. Character system? Nah. Low combat and pure diplomatic path? Yeah, I wish. So, what's left? The options and choices.

You forgot the setting(lore, storyline, coherence) and writing(dialog, characters, quest variety and design).

If the final trump card here was left to options and choices of paths I may as well go back to reading two-decade old gamebooks that aren't by Joe Dever. (not that the Titan setting in Fighting Fantasy is at all shit, far from it).

The reasoning here being that if you don't particularly care for your party, the gameworld and the current situation thereof, the resolution of called epic quests will feel less like excellent roleplaying and more like a chore with a decision that you don't even care about at the end. Should I save Megaton? I barely fucking care about Megaton! I do not get intellectually stimulated from the mere act of choice like this is some candy aisle willywonka disneyland shoppe out of narnia and I am a five year old in his pajamas deciding on cherry or orange or lime with my allowance, this is supposed to be a little more than that. Right now shaping the game world is less about how you want the story to progress and more about what kind of paltry immediate effect it is going to have on your character, otherwise it hardly matters.

A good personal case example for me would be the trainwreck of DA's human noble origin and FO3. For fuck's sake I just started playing and now I'm supposed to feel tragedy and emotional attachment to a character or characters(nobles managing to be even worse than bored Liam Neeson in this regard with especially stilted deliveries)I seriously can not even begin to care about?

see also: saving the council or not in first mass effect
 

CraigCWB

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Main thing that's different is that storylines used to be the backdrop in RPGs and they unfolded as you played. Now they are the centerpiece, and they get shoved down your throat. I think the old way was more interactive, because even though the plotlines were skimpier and the technology was cruder, the player usually at least had the ability to make his own decisions about what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it. The new interactive movie format is so set-in-stone that nothing the player does is an expression of his own free will. The player does what the story requires him to do, and there's no other option. Chinese menu style dialog trees don't change that. I think game RPG designers have become entirely too dependent on storyboarding their games as if they're doing a movie, and then adding in the actual GAMEPLAY as the glue that connects their prefab storyline events. It's an inherently wrong-headed approach to an interactive media.

I was a harsh critic of Bethesda with their vague "kill foozle" plots with a bunch of random stuff you could sandbox your way through on the way there back in the days of Arena and up through Morrowind, and I was a big fan of Bioware's storytelling in the days of BG1 & BG2. But Bioware has become too invested in their sub B-grade movie footage that nobody would bother watching if it was in TV show format, and they've forgotten that gameplay trumps all in a GAME. Bethesda on the other hand has added quite a bit of depth to the stories in their games to the point where Fallout 3 (and even moreso, New Vegas) are much closer to what I want in an RPG than any of the shit Bioware has cranked out lately. It's a shame, because Bioware has been so close to getting it right but they end up so very far away by the time they are done. A game assembled mostly from mini-miodules like the ones they did for the "origins" stories in DA would be pretty damn good. Instead it's all "cutscene->(dialog)help_me_obi_wan_you're_my_only_hope->trash mobs->scripted encounter->cutscene->(dialog)you-re_so_special_move_along_now" in chapter/verse format.

Fuck em. They don't get it. They never will get it. Why do people worship at the altar of the clueless so much in this industry? All the people who knew how to make great games and who actually had the talent and the drive to do so left the industry a long time ago. All that's left now is corporate hacks and useful idiots, lording it over some keyboard monkeys who'd just as soon be coding SQL and Java for an insurance company.
 

jazzotron

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CraigCWB said:
Fuck em. They don't get it. They never will get it. Why do people worship at the altar of the clueless so much in this industry? All the people who knew how to make great games and who actually had the talent and the drive to do so left the industry a long time ago. All that's left now is corporate hacks and useful idiots, lording it over some keyboard monkeys who'd just as soon be coding SQL and Java for an insurance company.

I've always been of the opinion that the games industry has simply followed the path set by the film, literature, and music industries. Ie. large conglomerates pumping out shyte by the metric tonne based upon feedback from focus groups comprised of the mediocre dregs of humanity, along with great wads of marketing, marketing, marketing. Admittedly, I don't think this has been a bad thing for the porn industry.

CraigCWB said:
coding SQL and Java for an insurance company.

Thanks for rubbishing my career. :cry:
 

Begriffenfeldt

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multidimensionally exponentially. yeah right. Watch all them branches converge after two minutes of playing.
 

CraigCWB

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jazzotron said:
Thanks for rubbishing my career. :cry:

Wasn't my intent to criticize career programmers. Been a programmer myself since 1990 and I've never worked a day in the game industry. I just have a low opinion of people who get into programming just because they can't think of anything better to do for a living, and who don't much care about what they're working on as long as they get paid. That particular type of programmer is in the majority now but when I first got into PC programming it wasn't that way. Mostly because the PC was a hobbyist platform back then and the people who wanted easy work and good money headed straight for the mainframes. Anyway, I only mentioned it because I think that's a big part of what's gone wrong with PC gaming. The folks who were making PC games in the 1980s were doing it because it was their passion. The people making PC games now are doing it because it's their job. Look at these fucking morons they keep sending out to do PR interviews... I'll eat my shorts if most of them have ever even played a PC game except when they had to for work reasons. What kind of shit can we expect from people like that? You just KNOW "good game design" for them is to clone features from random other games that sold well, and then make them mo-betta which for them means simplified to the point that even non-gamers like them can figure stuff out. That's when you get "I just love it when I click a button and really awesome stuff happens!"
 

Gord

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CraigCWB said:
I think the old way was more interactive, because even though the plotlines were skimpier and the technology was cruder, the player usually at least had the ability to make his own decisions about what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it. The new interactive movie format is so set-in-stone that nothing the player does is an expression of his own free will.

Was it really that different? You still had to follow certain plot-points in a specific order most of the time.
Very few games ever offered a lot of choices to the player and even then it usually cumulated to the same in the end.

I'd say though that the rules - character system, combat, etc. used to be more complex and "class-specific" approaches have been more frequent. But then again this, too, may be something only a few games really ever did well.
 

flushfire

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sea said:
Gord said:
Btw.: Bioware did do a fairly good job at implementing C&C in the Redcliffe questline in DA, imho.
I agree. Too bad this is basically the only such example in the game. And even though you can choose more or less how to save Arl Eamon, the fact is that the sacrifice you make is ultimately pretty insignificant; it's not like he can die or someting, requiring a different method of advancing the story. No matter what you do, all the paths converge to the same point. It's choice and consequence, but the consequences still aren't very important or interesting in the long run.
you may have forgotten orgrimmar because of the deep roads, but it is actually superior than redcliffe. redcliffe has a win-win solution where everyone is saved. orgrimmar requires you to choose a faction, and at the end of the quest line you get another ending-changing choice within that faction. even the "do everything that is good/honorable" does not end the usual way.
 

Gord

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flushfire said:
you may have forgotten orgrimmar because of the deep roads, but it is actually superior than redcliffe.

But Redcliffe has good interaction with other questlines (did you save the mages or not) and prior actions that seemed unrelated at that point (did you kill the bloodmage in the prison, keep him or let him free), which is something Orzammar does not offer, afaik. Also for an morally questionable approach, you could save the boy by bargaining with the demon, allowing him to come back later and gaining blood mage specialization in return. Still doesn't affect Arl Eamon, though.
 

deus101

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CraigCWB said:
jazzotron said:
Thanks for rubbishing my career. :cry:

Wasn't my intent to criticize career programmers. Been a programmer myself since 1990 and I've never worked a day in the game industry. I just have a low opinion of people who get into programming just because they can't think of anything better to do for a living, and who don't much care about what they're working on as long as they get paid. That particular type of programmer is in the majority now but when I first got into PC programming it wasn't that way. Mostly because the PC was a hobbyist platform back then and the people who wanted easy work and good money headed straight for the mainframes. Anyway, I only mentioned it because I think that's a big part of what's gone wrong with PC gaming. The folks who were making PC games in the 1980s were doing it because it was their passion. The people making PC games now are doing it because it's their job. Look at these fucking morons they keep sending out to do PR interviews... I'll eat my shorts if most of them have ever even played a PC game except when they had to for work reasons. What kind of shit can we expect from people like that? You just KNOW "good game design" for them is to clone features from random other games that sold well, and then make them mo-betta which for them means simplified to the point that even non-gamers like them can figure stuff out. That's when you get "I just love it when I click a button and really awesome stuff happens!"

Heh, hello hello.

Working with games was my dream for as long as i remember, that is, when i began to read a monthly column article about peter molyneux and his new company.
Somehow i knew that wasnt a job, that was purpose.
Later i was inspired to begin learning programming, which was what they needed, however most of my teen years was wasted on copying qbasic, renting books wheter it was coding for dummies or a C++ textbook, but it was half assed, couldnt find my footing and didnt know where i should be heading, the ADHD didnt help either.(i would like to think that if i had started out with a C64 i could have easily found my footing on basic...coulda', would'a and alot of SHOULD'A i suppose)

After playing with Maya i was beginning to think i should focus on 3D modelling instead, but thanks to Linux and its community i got some sense beaten into me in the form of aspiration to hackerdom.

But the biggest extension to that inspiration was the demoscene, which i grew more and more in love with as time passed.

So after a less then mediocre upper secondary education thanks to yours truly, i enrolled into a private University College with the degree in *drum solo* GAME PROGRAMMING.
My lack of effort and diciplin that made sure i had to take an extra year(and a half) is one of the unforgivable things I've done to myself, but i got through it.

However, stuff like Bioshock and DA had in the middle of this taken a toll on my blue eyed view of the gaming industry, i never did consider a career as a game designer, it was development and technology i was interested in, but i wanted to work on something everyone "poured their hearth and soul into" that was my ultimate goal.
But now I'm considering, would i really want to work on a product which is just bland, accecible trash meant to bridge "demographics"?(well...yeah...if it was offerd I'd take it in a hearthbeat, I'd work on Dragons Age 4 if it meant gaining experience)
Point is, its not a very rewarding notion.


Again, thank god http://slengpung.com/ for all these fuckers for giving me inspiration to pursue hackerdom.
Learning realtime graphic coding was worth it alone just for the chance to produce something that can impress these guys.

And now(thanks to a bit of nepotism/connections) i got a job position(hanging in the air with plenty of uncertainty) ,involving creating realtime graphics programs for a visualisation company dealing with maratime machinery(which is kinda cool considering the possibility of me helping to influence big industry executives buying million dollar hardware because of the bling i made)
Doing this and coding demos for the scenes is all i would need in life, not sure if i should feel disillusioned that a game developer career isnt my biggest goal in life anymore.

Altough you never know, the one course i took in game design and a paper i wrote about content creation in RPG's(which saved me from failing a course about writing papers) was actually one of the few things which i recived praise (that wasnt completely patronizing) for.
That and considering i spend my time arguing gameplay design and genre with half of gamasutra, and working on ideas about a TBFPSRPG (its gonna be a combination of Fallout and Toribash ITS GONNA BE BIGGER THE GRIMOIRE!"!!11), then i guess i still have some ambition left in that area.




....why the fuck did i write all that :retarded:
 

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