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Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
I've played around 35 hours of Skyrim thus far. It's clearly a small fraction of what's there.

I'll say this in full admission that I was one of the loudest screechers about Oblivion (and at times Morrowind, though I recognised later Morrowind was a very fine achievement in fantasy world-making and story-telling).

What we simply can not say any longer about Bethesda Softworks:

They can't make a great RPG.

They have.

They don't care about TES, the world, lore and gameplay.
They do. Michael Kirkbride never held back on criticising Oblivion. Yet he said on a forum post somewhere recently, before Skyrims release: "We're going back to Tamriel". He was right.

They don't care about politics and backstory.
They do. And they've done a superb job of it here. Dialogue is not lengthy. But it is intelligent, well written, and mature.

Todd Howard is a simpleton, a hack, a traitor to TES.
He is not. Morrowind's success on the Xbox and generally was an impressive achievement for him. His work doing the PR rounds for Skyrim with ease shows seriously capability as studio head. Yet he has not compromised content to achieve easy sales.

They make games that are easy.
No. I've played on Expert difficulty. It's a serious challenge - but only when it should be. I'm level 14 and bandits are no real trouble (mostly). A giant spider on the other hand simply crushed me with ease (along with my summoned Fire Atronarch). I had to run away from his tunnel, perhaps to return one day.

They can't do graphics, their animation is laughable, etc etc

No. The graphics in Skyrim are outstanding. Yes Assassin's creed is impressive on a surface level. But consider the truly open world in Skyrim in conjunction with all the little details they've included. It is stunning. Solitude for example is a real city. It is magnificent.

Their interfaces suck.

I'm playing on the xbox. It's fast, easy to use, un-intrusive. It's good. Perhaps it sucks on the PC. I don't know.

Yes, removal of attributes is a flaw, and a pity. But it seriously pales once the game is actually played. Skill trees are a fine addition. Overall, the spirit of Daggerfall still shines in this game. There are real factions with real motives and real conflicts. No, there isn't constant C&C. But this is not Age of Decadence. This is TES. Immersion, the world and its stories are major building blocks of TES. Skyrim is a true TES game.

Nor is it Disney-fied. And there's a certain delicate melancholy draped around Skyrim's milieu. It's romantic.

I now view Oblivion in a new light. It was a first-day release game on new hardware. It was a first attempt at mainstream success. It was hamstrung by these two factors. As a TES RPG, on its own, it was a failure. But as a stepping stone for Bethesda, it worked. They were playing the long game.

To paraphrase George Will on Barry Goldwater - it took them nine years to make another Elder Scrolls game. And the Elder Scrolls won.
 

torpid

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trolololololo

It's funny how Skyrim is very similar to Oblivion except for world design and atmosphere -- the combat is similar, the quests are similar (the guilds are arguably worse), the level scaling is still there though slightly toned down -- and yet people are acting like it's a revolution, after having lambasted every single aspect of Oblivion. The only significant change from Oblivion is that they removed the pall of derpness that hung over the game. But apparently that's enough for people to outright love the game, which shows how much TES is first and foremost about LARPing, and also means that either many of the complaints about Oblivion weren't genuine, or the continued decline in the intervening years between TESIV and V has compromised players' taste. Either way, Drog must me masturbating furiously to this post facto vindication of Oblivion.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Derp.

Who said it's a 'revolution'?

Its an excellent TES game, and a return to form.

But please, keep derping, Mr Torpid.
 

torpid

Liturgist
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So despite sharing so many elements with the much-hated (and rightly so) Oblivion, it's an "excellent TES game and a return to form." Proving my point that many of the complaints about Oblivion were misplaced, since a very similar game is now being lauded :lol: Better atmosphere and a few in-game books are apparently enough to forgive Oblivion's many, many flaws.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
Its a great post, judging the game for its merits, i just disagree on the difficulty side, it could be donemuch better, once again ill mention darksouls, the level design is superior and you have the feeling the game wants to screw you at every turn, truly a challenging and breath taking dungeon crawl.I dont have the same feeling of danger in skyrim, theres nice additions, traps although a bit too obvious, and even on the road sometimes bandits drop boulders on you from the top of a wall , that is really brilliant but nothing of that is lethal. I quickly end up with an acolyte companion, a dog companion and a spectral assasin plus my summons, everything is trivialized.
 

torpid

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I also have to point out that it's pretty amazing how the poster not only goes from being an ardent Oblivion critic to a Skyrim defender, but on top of that activates shill-mode to lavish praise on Bethesda and Todd Howard "playing the long game". Considering all the stuff they've lifted from other games that came out after Oblivion (mining/smithing/cooking from Risen, supremacist Elves from The Witcher, I want to be a dragon), it's clear that this wasn't some pre-planned genius development strategy. Hell, I bet they realized what a better atmosphere and more consistent world could do for a game after New Vegas, seeing as how Fallout 3 was still awash in retardation.
 

Admiral jimbob

gay as all hell
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Wasteland 2
torpid said:
I also have to point out that it's pretty amazing how the poster not only goes from being an ardent Oblivion critic to a Skyrim defender, but on top of that activates shill-mode to lavish praise on Bethesda and Todd Howard "playing the long game". Considering all the stuff they've lifted from other games that came out after Oblivion (mining/smithing/cooking from Risen, supremacist Elves from The Witcher, I want to be a dragon), it's clear that this wasn't some pre-planned genius development strategy. Hell, I bet they realized what a better atmosphere and more consistent world could do for a game after New Vegas, seeing as how Fallout 3 was still awash in retardation.
You think the supremacist elves are new? They've been wanting to destroy the concept of mankind since at least Morrowind.

Anyway, surprised to see this level of praise from Twinfalls. Can't say I agree with it all, but I'm definitely enjoying the game to a fair extent. It's Oblivion 2 with a sprinkling of Fallout 3, but it's about as good a product as that conglomerate could possibly be. I'm enjoying the lore, the general atmosphere, there's a real urge to find out what's over the next hill or around the next corner, and the combat's managed to stay pretty balanced and challenging without any gamebreaking exploits (though I haven't used smithing/enchantment). I'm easily pleased when it comes to open-world RPGs/hiking sims, I don't ask for much out of them, which makes it hard to judge whether it's actually a good game or not - it's certainly no Morrowind, Gothic or Daggerfall - but what the fuck, I'm enjoying myself. Looks like going in with rock-bottom expectations paid off.
 

bonescraper

Guest
torpid said:
Considering all the stuff they've lifted from other games that came out after Oblivion (mining/smithing/cooking from Risen,
Or Minecraft/Terraria, almost every MMO ever made, or even New Vegas for that matter. Derp.

supremacist Elves from The Witcher,
You got something wrong here, fellow.

I want to be a dragon
Derp.

And about the "guilds are teh crap" argument i keep reading about...

I don't know much about other guilds, but the thieves guild is really well done in Skyrim. It features decent writing, believable characters, nice story line and neat quest design. Color me amused as i honestly can't find a single derpy thing about it (maybe except the way stealth works in Skyrim, but then again, it's not Thief).
 

.Sigurd

Educated
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
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huahuahua
Good game. Typical flaws of AAA games but overall major incline from Bethesda compared to Oblivion and Fallout 3.

abnaxus said:
Did Kirkbride write any books for Skyrim? The Songs of the Return, maybe? The new lore is rather good.
I agree with you, especially the part about how the dwemer used the elder scrolls to ascend to a dimension above aetherius or every otrher plane(t) and later "poisoned" the scrolls so anyone that read it will become blind. Major douchebaggery right there along with slaving the Falmer when they sought refuge after the fall of the Snow Prince. :salute:
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
489
Location
Singapore
Although Skyrim as a whole is quite a 'return to form' as you've mentioned (and I agree), I feel there are some things Bethesda should finally address in their game conception the next opportunity they have. Since I've been defending/praising some aspects of Skyrim in other threads, I'll list some pros and cons of the game as a summary in this one.

Pros:

Good system for character customisation
This is the result from a system of limited points vs many available perks. More importantly, is how they put an effort into creating perks that result in new moves translating into new playstyles, which is far more defining for the character in an ARPG than passive perks (though there are still many of these). The complaint about lack of specific skills/attributes for specific weapons/magic/abilities is streamlined in the different choice of focuses you have in the perk trees.

Reasonable item progression
The leveled loot system still makes for generic treasures, yes. But what I'm pointing out here is that different 'tiers' of armor are now all viable if you choose to match them to be so. A fully smithed steel plate set, for example, will almost reach the armor rating cap (576). What this means is that there is a meaningful differentiation of item quality, but there are also ways to negate that differentiation so you can wear what is most suitable appearance/character wise and not be gimped. This is however, useless if the player insists on using the best of anything regardless of context (roleplaying/LARPing) aka what in WoW was called the 'clown suit'.

Tight, believable world and environment
The environment is great and interesting without feeling too cluttered. Also, if you run off the beaten path now and then, you will notice some terrain that is handplaced without being a 'location of interest' (on the map). Landscapes blend in well with each other, and weather system is realistic. Also, I don't know if it's 100% true yet, but in my playthrough I am very glad not to see high level creatures suddenly spawning on roads/civilised areas just because I'm high level (cue trolls and atronachs on the Imperial roads in Oblivion). Cities, associated lore, and NPC inhabitants still lacking a little in overall quantity, but the quality is acceptable for such a large undertaking.

Balanced Combat
It has many flaws which I will list later, but there are some great improvements to combat. Controls feel more visceral now, thanks to the perk system that adds different combat moves. Enemies have varied abilities (2-3 types of attack per enemy) on top of varying classes (mostly for humanoids) which add great variety and dynamism to encounters. Someone mentioned in another thread that casters only use a single element: fair enough. But they definitely cast more than 1 spell, especially on Master difficulty when they live long enough to go through the AI routine. For example, a necromancer doesn't just spam ice bolts, he also raises fallen comrades, and also heals himself. A fire mage casts both a channeled fire stream thing, and also fireballs. Some of them derive these new spells through equipped staffs, so there is further variation.

Cons:

OP skills
This is more an issue of balancing the skills. Some skills are easily broken without the intention of exploit (terrain, speedruns, metaknowledge, etc.). For example, smithing and enchanting at 100 will make your character almost invincible. Stamina regen passives with a good blocking skill lets you stunlock an enemy in a 1v1 situation. There are many more I'm sure. One of the better ways (other than balancing them through mods/patches) to negate these advantages now is to play on Master difficulty, so that their influence seems lesser (again, provided that you don't intentionally anchor your tactics on OP skills, which may be hard in some character builds, hence this con).

Boring Economy
It is horrible to already have the same type of traders in every major city having the same greeting. But worse, all of them seem to share the same leveled shop list. Similarity in shop items is the first complaint: variety of sold items should be more nuanced towards that region/city. Secondly, and more importantly, leveled shop items is a bad idea. It makes exploring and dungeon diving sort of meaningless. If armor/weapons were limited to steel with the rare elven / dwarven / orcish, it would be much better. And no bloody general trader selling daedra hearts, please.

AI
From town NPCs to enemy combatant AI, the gamebryo engine is always lacking in this aspect. Which leads me to my next point...

Action
If you are making an ARPG with less and less complex (can be good, can be bad, but not the point here) systems anyways, make combat more actiony. Animation is fine (except the current 3rd person dual wielding shit) but let blows connect, let limbs fall, let wounds show more accurately on the body part I strike. Improve ragdoll mechanics to make it truly bodypart specific. Also, let creatures have unique movements. The current giant/dragon moves are quite nice. But how about mudcrabs retreating into their shells for limited invulnerability? Or frostspiders lower themselves from ceilings with a web and can scramble on walls? Also, devise a suitable way to implement AI sneak, maybe some form of gradated invisibility when they are sneaking (more faded the less noise they make, or the better their sneak) so sneaky things like Falmer actually can ambush you? Don't just make new animations/effects with the same underlying mechanics of blob RPGs. And terrain abuse. Let AI jump, please.

Conclusion:
I like Skyrim, it is great fun combat/gameplay wise and decent story wise, as Bethesda seems to be making an effort to remove much of the derp that plagued Oblivion. The perk system is a good compromise (no negative connotations) between RPG statistics and actiony simplicity, and I hope they keep this system, and fix the above cons at least, for the next TES installment.
 

kris

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Admiral jimbob said:
and the combat's managed to stay pretty balanced and challenging without any gamebreaking exploits (though I haven't used smithing/enchantment).

It isn't gamebreaking, but the biggest exploit is that the AI can't jump. In difficult fights in the open I have to rely on that fact for survival.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Messages
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Have I been trolled by a copypaste? Either way, they didn't fix any of the flaws I wanted to make me consider even playing this, so I don't believe they should be proud at all (except in their ability to fool most of the people most of the time). It looks like Oblivion with a new coat of paint and the slightest amount of increased effort.
 

torpid

Liturgist
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Admiral jimbob said:
torpid said:
I also have to point out that it's pretty amazing how the poster not only goes from being an ardent Oblivion critic to a Skyrim defender, but on top of that activates shill-mode to lavish praise on Bethesda and Todd Howard "playing the long game". Considering all the stuff they've lifted from other games that came out after Oblivion (mining/smithing/cooking from Risen, supremacist Elves from The Witcher, I want to be a dragon), it's clear that this wasn't some pre-planned genius development strategy. Hell, I bet they realized what a better atmosphere and more consistent world could do for a game after New Vegas, seeing as how Fallout 3 was still awash in retardation.

You think the supremacist elves are new? They've been wanting to destroy the concept of mankind since at least Morrowind.

But that was in the lore, not the quests (as far as I can recall). You had the Dunmer xenophobia as a backdrop, but the specific angle about Elves in conflict with Humans didn't form a quest line.

revealer said:
torpid said:
Considering all the stuff they've lifted from other games that came out after Oblivion (mining/smithing/cooking from Gothic..
Fixed, newfag. :smug:

Totally missed the point there. Gothic II came out in 2002, Oblivion came out in 2006 and Risen came out in 2009. If Bethesda is going to use things from other games in Skyrim they'll take them from games that came out between TESIV and V.
 
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Roguey said:
Have I been trolled by a copypaste? Either way, they didn't fix any of the flaws I wanted to make me consider even playing this, so I don't believe they should be proud at all (except in their ability to fool most of the people most of the time). It looks like Oblivion with a new coat of paint and the slightest amount of increased effort.

It is Oblivion with a new coat of paint. But a new coat of paint can do wonders to a house, or a car, you get the drift. By improving in many aspects of Oblivion, coupled with much much better world design, and a character building system that doesn't trivialise character 'class', the gaming experience of Skyrim is way better. I don't know if Bethesda should be proud or not, but I wouldn't touch Oblivion ever again after my single run of it (didn't even complete MQ) while after 40ish hours in Skyrim, I'm still captivated by the content.

Basically, 1+1 doesn't always equals to 2.

Just borrow the game from the great Internet library and give it a whirl, at the least I promise it won't be an utter waste of time. You may just dislike it.
 
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kris said:
halflingbarbarian said:
, and weather system is realistic.

And you get all four seasons in one game ;)

In a graphical and ambient sense, it's quite awesome to descend into a crypt in the middle of a snow-stormy night on a frozen crag, and after battling through the dungeon emerge into a view of a dawning day with snow on the ground in warm light.
 

Twinfalls

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Messages
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@Jimbob

Don't get me wrong. It's not perfect. But remember Daggerfall. Remember Daggerfall. I love Daggerfall. It's still my desert-island-one-choice-only-game, despite my comments on Skyrim.

But you've got to also remember its flaws.

Take for example dungeons. In Skyrim they are (so far) pretty linear and a lot smaller than Daggerfall. So what?

So. What.

Every single dungeon I've visited in Skyrim has been distinct, unique. Daggerfall's insane, randomised serpentine mega-tunnels made no sense whatsoever as anything of practical use before they became ancient halls of undead. Skyrim's on the other hand, do.

I'm saying we should be objective in comparing the new tech, art, lore and game mechanics in Skyrim. 'Hiking simulator' is just silly, and I don't think you really believe that's any kind of description of the game.

Roguey said:
... they didn't fix any of the flaws I wanted to make me consider even playing this, so I don't believe they should be proud at all (except in their ability to fool most of the people most of the time). It looks like Oblivion with a new coat of paint and the slightest amount of increased effort.

mmfacepalmmm
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
I personally believe that SKYRIM has a great UNEXPLORED POTENTIAL. I suggest giving it over to Obsidian for repair.
 

Admiral jimbob

gay as all hell
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I liked the dungeons at first, despite their linearity, but at this point... there are some good ones, but they're maybe 80% generic draugr crypts. Maybe I'm just visiting the wrong ones, but they're not holding up that well.
 

kris

Arcane
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halflingbarbarian said:
kris said:
halflingbarbarian said:
, and weather system is realistic.

And you get all four seasons in one game ;)

In a graphical and ambient sense, it's quite awesome to descend into a crypt in the middle of a snow-stormy night on a frozen crag, and after battling through the dungeon emerge into a view of a dawning day with snow on the ground in warm light.

I said in another thread, maybe even another forum that they chosen ambience over realism. I am okay with that even if it is a bit silly. Also all places with snow look very bland and uninteresting.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Indeed, Bethesda should be very proud that they released yet another piece of shit that retards will lap up like they usually do.
 

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