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Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

Heresiarch

Prophet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
After beaten the game as a level 46 pure mage, I must say people like Skyway that complain about level scaling are just of so much bullshit.

The thing with Skyrim is, while there IS scaling, like tougher bandit/draugr/falmer varieties will appear much more often when you've reached level 30-40, the scaling is LIMITED, which is vastly improved over Oblivion. All the normal monster/bandits have FIXED health and stats, and they all carry semi-fixed equipment (e.g bandit marauders mostly wear shitty bandit equipment, and will carry at most 1 piece of ebony armor very rarely), so for one, if you can one shot bandit marauder/falmer shadowmaster at say level 45, then you can consistently one shot them even if you've reached level 70. For another, you'll never able to rely on killing bandits to complete your ebony set, because even after you've reached level 80, they are still stuck at level 35ish, and their loot table are still stuck at there.

This is the same with trolls, animals, and even dragons - apparently ancient dragons have a fixed 3k-ish health and 300 melee damage, and don't improve as you level up.

However there ARE a few specific NPC that will scale with your level, like the occasional ambushing thief, they are always wearing glass armor and have a higher and higher HP each time I kill them. Such cases are few and far between though.

While shopkeepers DO sell better material equipment at higher level (which can be seen very silly as Riverwood blacksmith can sell ebony armor), fortunately they are pretty rare. In fact, I've played over 20 hours to look for the ebony boots to complete the set for Lydia.

From a gameplay balance perceptive, I think the level scaling in Skyrim is pretty well done. While some of you may praise that if the world's bandits consist of the weakest variety at 90%, and one shotting them after you've past level 15 can make you feel powerful, it will also make the game very boring. Right now, there WILL have a moment that you feel overpowering anything, but that's past level 40+, a level that you should have maxed a few skills, and you should really deserve the power you've gained.

BTW, I've found Destruction spells actually usable even after level 40. Yes, the damage doesn't improve, which is really a shame compared the insane damage melee can do, but don't forget enemy health is fixed too. And with all the perks, at adept, you can 3 shot bandit marauders, and 5 shot draughr deathlords, which should be pretty balanced between "spamming hundreds of weak magic" to "one shotting everything". Now I'll use my remaining perks to improve my alchemy skill, and with +XX% fortify Destruction pots I can now consistently one or two shot all the toughest minions.
 

Neeshka

Educated
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
59
@twinfalls:
what perks and build order are you using ?

from my experience it's meaningless to play on master without 100 smith/100 enchant eventually.
And some kind of dual wield playstyle seems to be the most optimal.

With full dragonplate armor and daedric swords with 30% crit and double enchants- paralyze+fire, paralyze+frost/soul trap, with paralysis poison (damage poisons on weaker enemies)

With the above on any difficulty things die in just a few hits. If they don't they get lolstunned forever.

Obviously you still have to pot spam when needed.

It seems like you actively have to try to make this game hard since the most obvious build (dw 1h+heavy armor) is the strongest.

Now before you flame me, why is dw 1h obvious ?

dw is something you are definitely going to try out if you are even remotely interested in melee.
since light armor without perks is inferior to heavy armor without perks; you will typically go the heavy armor route.
archery/sneak are actively discouraged given the massive grind to level them to a viable point.
Magic is just horribly underpowered very clearly.

So now you have just a couple of relevant trees to work with - 1h, alch, ench, smith.

Also @ 100 daggers: doesn't really matter you can make whatever you want; daggers just avoid the inventory weight capping tediumfest.

Heresiarch said:
From a gameplay balance perceptive, I think the level scaling in Skyrim is pretty well done.
I strongly disagree with this; and many many people will too. Maybe the fact that you played a mage kept it different from the experience that most of us had.
With dual wield 1h+heavy armor, dual wield 1h+light armor, sneak build, archery build and 2h - after a certain level (around 32) everything in the game dies in 1-2 hits. Dragons are a joke. There really isn't much scaling of enemies but the lack of powerful enemies starts becoming a very serious problem.
At level 46 on my dual wield 100 ench 100 smith 100 1h breton; everything was getting steamrolled.

You also mentioned items in the game : with 100 smithing and enchanting; nothing from enemies or vendor npc's is anywhere close to what you can make.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Neeshka said:
@twinfalls:
what perks and build order are you using ?
Level 27. 1H + shield, heavy armour, fast heal and conjure fire atronarch spells. Unlike Oblivion, I can't find a more powerful summon spell than fire atronarch. This is incline, because in that abomination of a game I could summon a Daedroth from early on and have every dungeon cleared for me by a giant stomping bi-pedal alligator. The fire atronarch helps at times, but it's nowhere near overpowered. I've chosen the logical 1H, block, heavy armour, conjuration and restoration perks. I chose the axe perk so I'm sticking to those instead of swords or maces.

It seems like you actively have to try to make this game hard since the most obvious build (dw 1h+heavy armor) is the strongest.

The only 'actively trying to make it hard' I can be accused of doing so far is

- not crafting (no biggie, creating artifacts just didn't seem right for my character)
- not enchanting (and I am not inclined towards this anyway)

I have smithed all my gear to 'fine' (which is the limit for my skill level - I am not able to smith my enchanted boots and enchanted weapons, as I don't have the required perk and skill level). I'm using the most useful enchanted weapons and gear that I buy or find, I'm using every spell and shout that's available, and every last potion I can find and buy. Contrary to what people have been suggesting, there are not a great number of health and magick potions. The sellers do not seem to re-stock frequently at all.

Now before you flame me, why is dw 1h obvious ?

Why would I flame you? I don't agree that if you don't dw 1h you're actively making the game hard and therefore it sucks, though.
 

Neeshka

Educated
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
59
Not having both smithing and enchanting is HUGE.

The game doesn't really do a good job with loot; look it's not a diablo 3; so the bethesda random radiant loot generator churns out constant shit instead of anything useful. Even at the very end of the game you don't get anything decent (I stopped playing at around level 58). Bigger and badder enemies with better and more godly armor is just not a thing. Enemies stop scaling and it's the same laughably easy enemies dropping the same garbage after a while.

Imagine perks that let you get diablo elite unique weapons/armor with special bonuses that *you* choose; in a game where such things don't even exist. That's how powerful ench+smith is.

This is again obviously a massive design flaw as there is no loot incentive to anything in the game; quests, enemies, chests all have shitty loot. Loot acquisition is usually a nice addictive element in rpg's, but bethesda just shot themselves in the foot on this one.

Your perks are spread around over things that don't really synch well together.

one-handed synchs well with smithing/ench/alch/sneak/light/heavy armor for example.

1h + shield is the lowest melee damage build in the game. The mitigation you get is quite unnecessary because it's rarely needed.

Contrary to what people have been suggesting, there are not a great number of health and magick potions. The sellers do not seem to re-stock frequently at all.
Every city has an alchemist; many towns have one too. Dungeons themselves have a ton of potions lying around.
But mainly just pick up ingredients for restore health potions and use those. NPC's fully restock after a 48 hour wait. So buying all potions and all ingredients from every npc, waiting 2 days then repeating once should be more than enough. Of course this is tedious.

I'm using every spell and shout that's available
Dragons - dragonrend : because they are annoying pests that seem to fly around forever and land at the dumbest spots.
Everything else - either fus ro dah (the knockback) or slow time.

Using multiple spells will level up your character quite fast; but it ends up in levelling you up without really improving your combat prowess. This basically makes enemies harder up to a point but you are not. It's the same as, say, levelling sneak or speech early on - enemies will still scale - but your character is garbage to fight them. Again obviously the scaling starts to stop after a certain threshold level somewhere between 25 and 30.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Twinfalls said:
Sorry Krazsu I just don't agree. When enemies surround you, you can't block them all away. And 'potion spamming' is an utterly simplistic dismissal of combat in this game. The reality is that potions will not make you a god in this game. You will still die, plenty.

I had played up to lvl 18 so far.

Avoiding getting surrounded was pretty easy so far. Game pausing for insta healing potion makes you a god or you will be one shot killed either of those is a bad gameplay.

The other problem is with stamina it replenishes way to slow to offer any flow to the combat, or it replenish instantly with potions/eating.


Twinfalls said:
Well, I've been finding the loot perfectly fine. I like that you take what you find and have to save up to buy stuff because it's cheap to sell, but very expensive to buy. What's the problem? Do you want the Lord's Mail in every dungeon?

Everything that I can find is marginally better then what I have, and so is the case for shops there is nothing to look forward to, armour that has 45 AR instead of my 43 how exciting I just can't wait to get it. The level scaling is related to that.

Heresiarch said:
After beaten the game as a level 46 pure mage, I must say people like Skyway that complain about level scaling are just of so much bullshit.

Level scaling is better then oblivion, but that doesn't make it good. There is simply nothing that you can't roll over, you go the dungeon you know that you will be able to complete it, there are trolls, mammoth, and giants but they don't protect anything worthwhile, and they are slower then you are, oh 3 of them had protected the cave with some loot, but all that you needed to do was to run past them (trivial), as they didn't follow you. You can go to they can take whatever you want, and leave without any problems. Where is the planing of where to use your resources? Where are areas that you want to get stronger to visit? Where are areas where it is to dangerous for your char but where you can find loot that is above your level? You can go wherever you want, and nothing will ever stop you, and why level up at all if the world will just scale to it?

What is the point of open world when it is scaled to your level? Wherever you go it is all the same.

The Skyrim learn2use system is horrid as well I didn't advance my armour skill enough because I wasn't hit enough? I must play worse to increase my stats? Why would you do that, how is that fun or interesting?
 
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Majestic47 said:
I kinda agree :lol: with Twinfalls, I mean.

To bad that exploration is redeem pointless by level scaling, and no good loot. You also are discourage to go to any dungeon because the odds are that you will get a quest related to it that will require you to go there again.

Level scaling and loot is valid complaint - but the last part, I don't quite get it. What's the problem with quest related dungeons? How does it discourage you from exploring?

If I find the Cave of Dongs and happened to found level 13 loot while I'm still level 2, that's a great reason to go explore. But why go explore the Cave of Dongs at level 2 to find level 2 loot, if someone will probably send me there at level 13 to find level 13 loot, and be bored since I'll know the layout already?
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Clockwork Knight said:
Majestic47 said:
I kinda agree :lol: with Twinfalls, I mean.

To bad that exploration is redeem pointless by level scaling, and no good loot. You also are discourage to go to any dungeon because the odds are that you will get a quest related to it that will require you to go there again.

Level scaling and loot is valid complaint - but the last part, I don't quite get it. What's the problem with quest related dungeons? How does it discourage you from exploring?

If I find the Cave of Dongs and happened to found level 13 loot while I'm still level 2, that's a great reason to go explore. But why go explore the Cave of Dongs at level 2 to find level 2 loot, if someone will probably send me there at level 13 to find level 13 loot, and be bored since I'll know the layout already?

How would you know the dungeon is quest related? I mean, I don't run into caves and think long and hard about 'is this cave quest related?' before entering. Serious. You just get in there, get it over with. And if the quest returns you there, that's too bad. At least you get through it faster on the second run.

Would you rather prefer the game proceed in a three hub system, each with 2 unique dungeons, completed once, and then left behind forever, without any reason or even an option return to it since the protagonist already achieved what he wanted on Hub 1, 2, and 3? Onward to Finale! Go, Chosen one!

Unless you want a big padlock on quest areas like how the shitty Two Worlds Two executed it. A fucking tent flaps that are locked. A door on a cave, locked and magically unlocked when you have picked the right quest?
 
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I'm not saying you should sit down and ponder about the meaning of adventuring before entering a random dungeon you just stumbled upon, just that it's kinda pointless since odds are you'll be directed there again so you might as well do quests until you're told to go there anyway. Big dungeons are usually quest related. Of course, sometimes you can't tell if it's big from the outside.

In vanilla Oblivion, when I was walking around the IC and found a fort or the like, I'd enter it if I was bored with my current quest. Otherwise, I'd keep walking and just goi back later, when there would be a chance of achieving an objective + a chance of finding something useful (crawling through a fort full of bandits, boss chest contains 5 coins, an iron axe and a fur helmet = feels bad man)
 

Kraszu

Prophet
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RK47 said:
Clockwork Knight said:
Majestic47 said:
I kinda agree :lol: with Twinfalls, I mean.

To bad that exploration is redeem pointless by level scaling, and no good loot. You also are discourage to go to any dungeon because the odds are that you will get a quest related to it that will require you to go there again.

Level scaling and loot is valid complaint - but the last part, I don't quite get it. What's the problem with quest related dungeons? How does it discourage you from exploring?

If I find the Cave of Dongs and happened to found level 13 loot while I'm still level 2, that's a great reason to go explore. But why go explore the Cave of Dongs at level 2 to find level 2 loot, if someone will probably send me there at level 13 to find level 13 loot, and be bored since I'll know the layout already?

How would you know the dungeon is quest related? I mean, I don't run into caves and think long and hard about 'is this cave quest related?' before entering. Serious. You just get in there, get it over with. And if the quest returns you there, that's too bad. At least you get through it faster on the second run.

Would you rather prefer the game proceed in a three hub system, each with 2 unique dungeons, completed once, and then left behind forever, without any reason or even an option return to it since the protagonist already achieved what he wanted on Hub 1, 2, and 3? Onward to Finale! Go, Chosen one!

Unless you want a big padlock on quest areas like how the shitty Two Worlds Two executed it. A fucking tent flaps that are locked. A door on a cave, locked and magically unlocked when you have picked the right quest?

I would prefer G3/Risen way of being told that I had finished quest even if I didn't talk with the quest giver yet, yeah pretty derp but works much better. The best solution would be to have some quest related items that you will collect so you could find the quest giver, and take the reward.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Kraszu said:
I would prefer G3/Risen way of being told that I had finished quest even if I didn't talk with the quest giver yet, yeah pretty derp but works much better. The best solution would be to have some quest related items that you will collect so you could find the quest giver, and take the reward.
There are those, as well. Found several journals of some necromancer in a tomb and suddenly I knew that a certain guy, in a tavern under a city to which I've never been, wants them. How cool is that?
 

Kraszu

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Multiple Sarcasm said:
Kraszu said:
I would prefer G3/Risen way of being told that I had finished quest even if I didn't talk with the quest giver yet, yeah pretty derp but works much better. The best solution would be to have some quest related items that you will collect so you could find the quest giver, and take the reward.
There are those, as well. Found several journals of some necromancer in a tomb and suddenly I knew that a certain guy, in a tavern under a city to which I've never been, wants them. How cool is that?

It had only had happened to me once, and in the very same quest what a coincidence. There is also stone with some dragon shit that is related to MQ, but my point is that such quest solution should be reliable not very uncommon.
 
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This game is in serious need of map filters. I'm looking at the map after 100 hours and it's a total cluster fuck. I can't see shit from shit and it being 3D doesn't help either.

The biggest offense is that even opening the map and looking around just to check quest related stuff feels like a fucking mini game.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
I agree, it could use a map showing the roads and the holds borders.
 

toro

Arcane
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Messages
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I had a quest to kill the quicksilver bandits or something, anyway, my horsie had a bad night so he rushed into the bandits ... going through an iron gate. The problem was that after the bandits become goners, I could not exit the said gate while on top of my horsie: we were too tall for the gate. Then I started jumping with the horsie until we both climb up ... the fucking wall of the fort. Fuck yeah! My horsie is a climbing champion :D

lvl29, two ebony axes, lydia in ebony armor, the dog, horsie and a flame atronach ... the most retarded party ever.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,023
I miss Fred. A lot.

I was just getting off to sleep when suddenly *BANG*, I’m summoned to the side of yet another swashbuckling adventurer who wants me to do his bidding. Great.

Now normally, I’m summoned to fight great, menacing beasts with teeth as long as your arm. Something I can brag about later.. But this guy? This guy had me facing off against a couple of stray Death Moths. There’s no street cred in that!

There was something interesting though.. all over Faranga, ancient ruins have pushed their way up above the ground..
 

crufty

Arcane
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Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
I agree with twin falls

The level scaling is pretty well done.

I am playing an archery / sneak character and enjoy the challenge.

The voice acting is good to great. I am totally into assaulting imperial forts and gutting them in the wilderness.

This game is totally metal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U7Lp42M6kk


I am having a lot of fun doing the main quests. Have some side quests I'll get to.

There are opportunities, nits, and wishes, with only a few bugs that are not game breaking nor repetitive.
 

flushfire

Augur
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
771
Twinfalls said:
The only 'actively trying to make it hard' I can be accused of doing so far is

- not crafting (no biggie, creating artifacts just didn't seem right for my character)
- not enchanting (and I am not inclined towards this anyway)
You forgot not taking companions with you.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Kraszu said:
I would prefer G3/Risen way of being told that I had finished quest even if I didn't talk with the quest giver yet, yeah pretty derp but works much better. The best solution would be to have some quest related items that you will collect so you could find the quest giver, and take the reward.

Yeah, very immersive...
Well, So far I didn't have too many problems with quest related dungeons. Now, I'm not going for 100% completion or such shit, but I still do some amount of exploring. Although the relatively high amount of quests that do send you to some dungeon probably mean that I do less "mindless" exploring than in other similar games.

Still, some quests get started when you reach the right location.

Regarding the other frequent complaints about level scaling and loot:
It's definitely far from perfect, but -as far as scaled systems go- relatively good. I still prefer the Gothic way of open world design (i.e. a mostly static world), but Skyrim sits somewhere in between the total derpiness of Oblivions scaling and Gothics static world.
Especially early in the game there are many places that will be too dangerous for you to explore. I had to flee on some occasions because the enemies where too strong for my low level character.
Loot is another thing. Most loot is random and sadly tied to your level (or maybe the level of the dungeon?). You can find some pretty good stuff that way, but just the same, you can end up with a few coins and potions at the end of a dungeon.
There are more interesting unique artifacts, but they are pretty rare (Daedric artifacts are nice, imho, so are the few uniques that are hidden in the world), so the chance that you will find one without knowing were too look isn't that big.
 
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crufty said:
I agree with twin falls

The level scaling is pretty well done.

I am playing an archery / sneak character and enjoy the challenge.

Not sure if I'd call it challenge. I'm also playing sneak + archery. Maxed out both skills + perks, actually, and not doing smithing, enchanting or companions either. Most of the times, it's pretty easy picking out everyone one by one.

<Dead body of his comrade lying at his feet> I guess it was nothing. I must be hearing things.

Not much challenge there. Especially with sneaking being so easy when not in day light.

The voice acting is good to great.

Not sure if serious. It's ok to bad to extremely fucking cringy. They made the Daedra Lords (and Ladies?) sound juvenal as fuck. Sheogorath? Mephala? Boethiah? Dagon? And a few others I'm forgetting. They all sound like EVIL!!!!11 or other similar fucktards written and voiced for little kids. None of the nuance in the game lore has gone into script or their voice acting. Once again, we have a few actors voicing the entire game. We also got Victor from FNV, try as hard the guy does to sound different.

Dialogue monologue script and VA is terribly juvenile in the entire game.
 

Kraszu

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Gord said:
Kraszu said:
I would prefer G3/Risen way of being told that I had finished quest even if I didn't talk with the quest giver yet, yeah pretty derp but works much better. The best solution would be to have some quest related items that you will collect so you could find the quest giver, and take the reward.

Yeah, very immersive...
Well, So far I didn't have too many problems with quest related dungeons. Now, I'm not going for 100% completion or such shit, but I still do some amount of exploring. Although the relatively high amount of quests that do send you to some dungeon probably mean that I do less "mindless" exploring than in other similar games.

Gameplay >>> immersion. If you avoid exploring because of how quest are implemented in the game then I would say that it influences the gameplay negatively.
 

flushfire

Augur
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
771
Gord said:
There are more interesting unique artifacts, but they are pretty rare (Daedric artifacts are nice, imho, so are the few uniques that are hidden in the world), so the chance that you will find one without knowing were too look isn't that big.
unfortunately except for the few that are truly unique in their enchantments, daedric artifacts are worse than what you can make even with only 60s in smithing and enchantment. some quest rewards that could've been great are also leveled so that makes their only worth either disenchant or sell.
 

DraQ

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Kraszu said:
Gord said:
Kraszu said:
I would prefer G3/Risen way of being told that I had finished quest even if I didn't talk with the quest giver yet, yeah pretty derp but works much better. The best solution would be to have some quest related items that you will collect so you could find the quest giver, and take the reward.

Yeah, very immersive...
Well, So far I didn't have too many problems with quest related dungeons. Now, I'm not going for 100% completion or such shit, but I still do some amount of exploring. Although the relatively high amount of quests that do send you to some dungeon probably mean that I do less "mindless" exploring than in other similar games.

Gameplay >>> immersion. If you avoid exploring because of how quest are implemented in the game then I would say that it influences the gameplay negatively.
I don't see anything unimmersive about, for example, finding a personalized ring or other trinket and being able to seek out the owner or their relative in addition to the obvious option of selling it for monies. In Morrowind quest goals were generally pre-placed and enabled, plus many quest givers actually had specific responses for "I've done that already, now gimme teh lewt".

Besides, the main problem here is that there are quests around the gameworld - static, predetermined problems no one does anything about because everyone is sitting on their bum, waiting for the player to appear, for he is the only person in the entire world that can do anything.

Randomized quests and expiring quests are a nice way to muddle shit up, so are questing NPCs and faux quests (stuff that looks like obvious questhook, but isn't).
 

Mozgoëbstvo

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Eh. With the infinite things that have been said here about Skyrim, against it and in its defense, scaling, glitches, freedom, purple and brown morality, dragons, lore, etc, the ultimate truth is... you either like it or not. It goes beyond analysis.

You either have fun or you don't. Me? After two-three days of continuated play, I stopped and asked myself (much like with Human Revolution, and with the same result) "Hey, am I having fun, or am I going on by the power of mere inertia?"

The answer was the latter. Didn't touch it anymore. Would've uninstalled it, but my brother (who never liked any other TES game) started playing and sank some serious hours in it. Though, after achieving level 100 smithing, he DOES feel some fatigue.

So yes, the main thing is - you like it or not.

The only thing I FUCKING HATE are the posters who might be dishonest about their real enjoyment of it (and maybe lie to themselves first) because they invested time or even money in it.
Or those who like it very much and backpedal because of the haters.
I'm a hater, but, dudes: you don't have to justify anything if, at the end of the day, you sincerely enjoy a game that I think is more dull than an american stand up comedian.
:salute:
 

Kraszu

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DraQ said:
I don't see anything unimmersive about, for example, finding a personalized ring or other trinket and being able to seek out the owner or their relative in addition to the obvious option of selling it for monies.

Sure I was referring to the quest that don't have an item (kill monsters nearby the farm quest for example), yet you still get the notification that you had completed it. You could remove the notification but it still wouldn't make any sense on why the quest giver would pay you for doing quest that you had done without asking for anything in return, and without knowing that you solve a problem for somebody.
 
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But then you'd be afraid of doing things on the off-chance it's a quest objective and you wouldn't get a reward for doing it before asking for the NPC's permission.
 

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