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Why do we call it 'Blob combat'

Stinger

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This is just something I noticed from mining through some old threads on the codex, the combat in games like Wizardry, Chrono Trigger and early Final Fantasy titles is called 'Blob combat' here.

I've seen a few different terms for that style of combat but never Blob.

So I was wondering, why does the codex use that term, where does it come from?

And also what does it include? Does ATB or games like Radiant Historia get included under Blob?
 

Damned Registrations

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The term is used because the party has no tactical positioning and simply moves as a single unit and can be targetted arbitrarily. Chrono Trigger only pseudo qualifies, since there are actually skills from both enemies and PCs that target portions of the battlefield, but you can't choose to manually position in a specific location.

Though that is true of most 'blob' combat games, they often do have some sort of mechanic for positioning, like party order affecting targeting of certain attacks or being able to have front and back rows.
 

zeitgeist

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It's quite simple: because the party acts like a blob. Even in games where party member positioning exists, the units are just positioned at various points of the blob in question. If you can't order a single party member to go to the other side of the room, it's likely blob combat.

mvkyet.png


As you can see, the party is on the edges and in the middle of a blob, and the blob always moves together. This is similar to traditional jRPG combat (of the non-tactical variety) and even map movement, in which party members usually "enter" the main character and he walks through the gameworld alone.
 

Wyrmlord III

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Back when I started posting in 2008, "blobber" was normally used as a term of ridicule and contempt. Many people were not exactly fans of Might and Magic or Wizardry, and "blobber" seemed to indicate how allegedly shallow these games are: the game treats the party as one person, so the game is oversimplified.

In truth, "blobber" is not a correct description. In many such games, you can change the position of party members between front rows and flank rows. And you can have your rogues roll over to behind enemy flank lines so that they can attack flank mages with impunity. Independent behaviour of different party members did exist; it was just that these games showed everything in a highly abstracted form. In case of phase-based combat games like Wasteland, meelee fighters could be made to move closer to the enemies and ranged fighters farther away from them. Once you actually look into the details of how things work, these games involve anything but a blob.

Basically, ridiculing a game by calling it a "blobber" is similar to saying, "Turn-based combat is bad, because nobody fights in turn-based form in real life." Of course, games are supposed to be abstracted, and not at all like real life.
 

MaroonSkein

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As you can see, the party is on the edges and in the middle of a blob, and the blob always moves together. This is similar to traditional jRPG combat (of the non-tactical variety) and even map movement, in which party members usually "enter" the main character and he walks through the gameworld alone.
It's not "similar", it's the exact same mechanic in both cases. The only difference is the visual representation: in first-person dungeon crawlers you have a row of portraits/names at the bottom of the screen, and in most jRPGs you have a row of sprites/models at the side of the screen.
 

DraQ

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Blob combat is a tradeoff.

On one hand it allows game to be party based, with multiple combatants on each side which helps the tactics without creating a clusterfuck of bad AI and bad pathfinding.

OTOH it disallows arbitrary positioning of party members even if it does feature formation editor, so placing your archer on a nearby tower or your rogue in that dark corner by the door is impossible.

I guess the good way to get the best of both worlds would optional blob, where party moves as blob (with editable formation) by default, but its representation in game consists of individual characters and it can be split into sub-blobs (of 1 or more members) that can move individually.

Think of it as blob interface to a non-blobber, reducing concurrent pathfinding and micromanagement to only the cases when it's actually needed.
 

Infinitron

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Well, Infinity Engine had formations...

I think you're overlooking the importance of these games' tile based nature, though.
 

Gozma

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Blobber was never a term of contempt. It was invented by that guy with the avatar I remember but cannot describe and whose name I forget, a supreme old one (edit: Shagnak) and he is a booster of it
 

octavius

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Blob combat is a tradeoff.

On one hand it allows game to be party based, with multiple combatants on each side which helps the tactics without creating a clusterfuck of bad AI and bad pathfinding.

OTOH it disallows arbitrary positioning of party members even if it does feature formation editor, so placing your archer on a nearby tower or your rogue in that dark corner by the door is impossible.

I guess the good way to get the best of both worlds would optional blob, where party moves as blob (with editable formation) by default, but its representation in game consists of individual characters and it can be split into sub-blobs (of 1 or more members) that can move individually.

Think of it as blob interface to a non-blobber, reducing concurrent pathfinding and micromanagement to only the cases when it's actually needed.

Personally I prefer the abstract combat of turn based blobbers to games with slow and simplistic overhead turn based combat, like for example Ultima IV.
There still is some tactics involved in abstract games like the Wizardries, Bard's Tales and Might&Magic 1-2.

But I always felt that having four characters in real time blobbers like Dungeon Master were redundant since they really didn't complement each other, and the characers tending to end up as copies of each other.

One character is really enough if you can't get any group dynamic with four or six characters. Combat is not the main attraction of real time blobbers anyway, though, and with only one character there is only one paper doll to dress up, which is a bit of a shame if you find several sets of good weapons and armour.
 
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I guess the good way to get the best of both worlds would optional blob, where party moves as blob (with editable formation) by default, but its representation in game consists of individual characters and it can be split into sub-blobs (of 1 or more members) that can move individually.

Oh, like Wasteland then?

Blobber was never a term of contempt. It was invented by that guy with the avatar I remember but cannot describe and whose name I forget, a supreme old one (edit: Shagnak) and he is a booster of it​

Yes, it went something like 'multi armed and legged blob' or something of the sort. I thought it was apt and have used it ever since.
 

mondblut

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Blobber comes from "blob with arms and legs", which is a description of an invisible multi-limbed entity you control in first person party-based RPGs such as Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Dungeon Master etc. As far as I am concerned, a third-person game (that includes jrpgs) can't be a blobber by definition, no matter how lame and superficial its combat engine is.
 
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Blob combat is a tradeoff.

On one hand it allows game to be party based, with multiple combatants on each side which helps the tactics without creating a clusterfuck of bad AI and bad pathfinding.

OTOH it disallows arbitrary positioning of party members even if it does feature formation editor, so placing your archer on a nearby tower or your rogue in that dark corner by the door is impossible.

I guess the good way to get the best of both worlds would optional blob, where party moves as blob (with editable formation) by default, but its representation in game consists of individual characters and it can be split into sub-blobs (of 1 or more members) that can move individually.

Think of it as blob interface to a non-blobber, reducing concurrent pathfinding and micromanagement to only the cases when it's actually needed.

It will always have a place in my heart, simply because I grew up with it. But a really really large part of the blob combat genre - to my mind at least (possibly because of my focus on the Wizardry series) - was that players weren't intuitively used to 3d wire mapping in the same way that they can follow map without mapping today, allowing a hefty puzzle element. After you levelled past the 'wtf-pwned' bit (I always liked that Wiz allowed monsters to have player skills that would allow insta kills, but lacked D&D-style mass save-or-die spells, meaning that from decent levels onwards, having a character instakilled was a situational problem to be dealt with), combat was largely a logistical problem. You had limited hitpoints, limited mana, and very few ways of refilling either while in the dungeon. Teleports, mirror squares, forced darkness zones and other map nasties were the real threat - because they could mean getting lost, and getting lost was what got your whole party killed. The main challenge to the player was avoiding the many situations which might lead you to lose track of where the stairs are (and teleporting out of combat without the ability to specify where you end up was basically suicide - even if you didn't end up in a wall, you had a 50% chance of the worst possible event happening - getting zoned lower in the dungeon without knowing where you are.

As much as I thoroughly enjoy the genre - and think that it can still be legitimately extended to new generations - it's always going to be a harder sell these days. Even if you pull off the genre's strengths really well - create a great tactical skill, class, and party interaction that requires cross-party planning (but not metagaming) to succeed, while implementing innovative traps with an ironman mode for those who want the traps to have teeth (or a partial ironman mode like Wizardry, where you could send a new party to rescue the remains of the old one), players are still going to say 'ok, this is all good and fun, but wouldn't it be even better if I could see and control my party members JA2-style?'
 
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Will they? I'm not so sure. I certainly would but Legend of Grimrock seems to be doing just fine, for instance. The demand for blobbers might be higher than any of us realise.

Then again, maybe not. LoR is also a pretty and simplistic game, though not bad by any means. The Brazilian Slaughter might disagree, of course.
 

DraQ

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Well, Infinity Engine had formations...

I think you're overlooking the importance of these games' tile based nature, though.
1. Yes, IE had formations but they were superficial. They only described where each character should end up when you clicked, but each navigated separately, creating all sorts of problems and wasting a lot of computing power. If they moved as pseudo-blob, they would all move together, maintaining relative position and adjusting speed to that of the slowest member. Some sort of "squeeze" method would also be handy for narrow passages - a game should detect those and temporarily break the formation down while still navigating along single path.

2. Tiles are not necessary for a blobber to work just fine, see Wizardry 8.
 
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It will always have a place in my heart, simply because I grew up with it. But a really really large part of the blob combat genre - to my mind at least (possibly because of my focus on the Wizardry series) - was that players weren't intuitively used to 3d wire mapping in the same way that they can follow map without mapping today, allowing a hefty puzzle element. After you levelled past the 'wtf-pwned' bit (I always liked that Wiz allowed monsters to have player skills that would allow insta kills, but lacked D&D-style mass save-or-die spells, meaning that from decent levels onwards, having a character instakilled was a situational problem to be dealt with), combat was largely a logistical problem. You had limited hitpoints, limited mana, and very few ways of refilling either while in the dungeon. Teleports, mirror squares, forced darkness zones and other map nasties were the real threat - because they could mean getting lost, and getting lost was what got your whole party killed. The main challenge to the player was avoiding the many situations which might lead you to lose track of where the stairs are (and teleporting out of combat without the ability to specify where you end up was basically suicide - even if you didn't end up in a wall, you had a 50% chance of the worst possible event happening - getting zoned lower in the dungeon without knowing where you are.
(snip)
Indeed. The "logistical" part was/is a large part of the fun for me. Keeping everybody alive against many threats. When there's lots of elements working together, it's like juggling. The more balls, the greater the challenge.

EDIt: Oops just now noticed this is an old thread. How the fek did I get here? /scratches head. Oh ya I googled blobber games and came here and then momentarily forgot how I got here and replied.
 
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aweigh

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Azrael the cat

wut, you want blobbers to play? there are a metric ton of them being made in japan.

As of this moment you can play the following Wizardry-clones on your PC in english:

Elminage: Gothic
Generation XTH: Code Hazard
Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess
Paper Sorcerer (the only non-japanese Wiz-clone in this list!)

on your PSP your can play the following in english:

Elminage: Original
Class of Heroes 1
Class of Heroes 2

on your PS2 you can play:

Wizardry: Tale of Forsaken land
Wizardry Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles (in-game menu option to change to english)

on your Nintendo DS you can play:

7th Dragon (not a Wiz-clone, but quite simialr in execution of mechanics)
Etrian Odyssey 1-3 (a japanese branch of the Wiz-clone; just slightly different enough in their mechanics to merit a different tag other than Wiz-clone)

on your Nintendo 3DS you can play:

etrian odyssey 4
shin megami tensei 4

finally, on your VITA you can play the following Wiz-clones:

demon gaze
stranger of sword city
dungeon travelers

Personal recommendation? drop everything you're doing right now, yes including important stuff related to your job or life, and buy/pirate Elminage: Gothic for Windows PC right this second and enjoy 100+ hours of the absolute best Wizardry-style (Wiz 1-5, mind you, no Bradley bullshit) gameplay you will ever experience. The studio behind Elmiange series is comprised of ex-Wizardry developers.

EDIT: and once you reach the stage where you can play the games in japanese PM me and I can send you a list of dungeon crawlers released in the last 5 years that is a mile long.
 
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aweigh

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yep. i made it to the infamous crossword puzzle and stopped playing.

excellent game and very much worth its place in the history of the turn-based dungeon crawler but i found something out while playing it:

1) i don't enjoy non-first person based combat in my first-person dungeon crawler. i really, REALLY do not enjoy the slow pace of the top-down tactical combat. though to be fair to Uukrul a lot of the so-called "slow pace" of the combat would be mitigated by modern implementations and niceties.

2) i really, really, REALLY do not enjoy abstract puzzles in my turn-based dungeon crawlers.

so you might ask then: what DID you enjoy about Uukrul?

it's unbelievable atmosphere and its impeccable writing and although as i said, i did not enjoy it's top-down tactical combat, the SYSTEMS underneath said combat (such as the very interesting magic system and its use of runes and shrines) definitely kept me playing.

in the end tho i just had enough of the puzzles. i don't enjoy puzzles.

EDIT: dear god how could i forget! and the dungeon design of course. it's so obvious that Uukrul features TOP-NOTCH dungeons that i completely forgot about calling them out, as it is an obvious fact. this ties in to my dislike of puzzles in dungeon crawlers btw; i believe abstract puzzles actively detract from good dungeon gameplay. the dungeon levels i most enjoyed were the ones that featured the least amount of puzzles.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Something special about it though. I have not finished it either but I keep going back to it. The atmosphere is really great.
 

Old Hans

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Its one of those rare games where the dungeon doesnt feel like some lame-ass 20x20 graph paper maze with no personality
 

octavius

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Yup, the non-predictable size and layout of the dungeons was really refreshing after Wizardry 1-3, Bard's Tale1-2, M&M 1-2 and the Gold Box games.
 

Roqua

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Azrael the cat

wut, you want blobbers to play? there are a metric ton of them being made in japan.

As of this moment you can play the following Wizardry-clones on your PC in english:

Elminage: Gothic
Generation XTH: Code Hazard
Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess
Paper Sorcerer (the only non-japanese Wiz-clone in this list!)

on your PSP your can play the following in english:

Elminage: Original
Class of Heroes 1
Class of Heroes 2

on your PS2 you can play:

Wizardry: Tale of Forsaken land
Wizardry Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles (in-game menu option to change to english)

on your Nintendo DS you can play:

7th Dragon (not a Wiz-clone, but quite simialr in execution of mechanics)
Etrian Odyssey 1-3 (a japanese branch of the Wiz-clone; just slightly different enough in their mechanics to merit a different tag other than Wiz-clone)

on your Nintendo 3DS you can play:

etrian odyssey 4
shin megami tensei 4

finally, on your VITA you can play the following Wiz-clones:

demon gaze
stranger of sword city
dungeon travelers

Personal recommendation? drop everything you're doing right now, yes including important stuff related to your job or life, and buy/pirate Elminage: Gothic for Windows PC right this second and enjoy 100+ hours of the absolute best Wizardry-style (Wiz 1-5, mind you, no Bradley bullshit) gameplay you will ever experience. The studio behind Elmiange series is comprised of ex-Wizardry developers.

EDIT: and once you reach the stage where you can play the games in japanese PM me and I can send you a list of dungeon crawlers released in the last 5 years that is a mile long.

I think Elminage Gothic is one of the worst games ever made, with a UI straight from 1982. It would have been good in 1982, but not this century when we have really good games like Wiz 8 and MMX. Hell, even MM9 is better than Elminage Gothic by a long shot.

Besides that, where do you buy the other two games besides Paper Sorcerer for the PC? The aren't on steam and I am willing to check them out because I do like Paper Sorcerer. Why don't you ever recommend S&S:Underworld or the Quest? Both had good dungeons and other content besides more dungeon. How about Fall of the Dungeon Guardian or Ruzar? Why haven't you played these if you like rpg-lite games with no content besides dungeon and more dungeon?
 
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aweigh

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because i like Wiz-clones. I don't like the MM series for example as i find it too shallow compared to Wizardry. i also don't consider wiz 6-7-8 to be true wizardry games but random games that happen to feature the name wizardry; and i've already gone over the multiple reasons why. DW Bradley literally killed everything good in the wizardry formula starting with wiz 6 and it took the japs to bring the series back to its glory days.

as for elminage gothic: it's a wiz-clone in the style ov wiz 1-5 except with every single wizardry system refined and polished to its logical peak and features the best combat and weapon enchanting system i've ever seen in any dungeon crawler. it also features some of the most dense and trickiest dungeons i've ever played through, and yes that includes the first 5 Wizardry titles.

our tastes are just different in this regard roqua.

As for the games i listed for PC:
Paper sorcerer and Elminage: Gothic are on steam; wizardry empire 1 and 2 are available for sale on amazon.JP but if you want to play them in english then download them off THE ISO ZONE, which is where i have uploaded the english translation richard/helly did of Wizardry Empire 2 and which is where I upload my constantly-in-progress translated ISO of Wiz Empire 1.

or you can buy them off amazon.jp of course, whatever.

EDIT: same deal with Generation XTH. you can get the japanese PC game off amazon.jp or you can download the translated ISO off an emu site and play it on PC. i don't remember the name of the translation group off hand but there is a dedicated Generation XTH thread in the JRPG forum with the link to the iso and the english patch.

hell if you want i can just PM you Wiz Empire 2 and Generation XTH already english-patched. i have them uploaded to my dropbox.
 
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