Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #29: Armor System and Fulfillment Website

[villain of the story]

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.

There are amour penalties in AoD. R00FLES!

 

[Scruffy]

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.

There are amour penalties in AoD. R00FLES!

you seem to have completely missed the point, and also seem stupid by the way.

 

[Primordial Soup Nazi]

I've gotta say, the more I see from this Josh Sawyer character, the more I like. I'd award the man an internet or two just for conceptualizing gambesons in his game.

You can't discuss any subsystem on its own in vacuum without materialising a basic concept of how combat works unless you are shooting for the mundane. What are the differences between various types of armour? FFS, real life has all the answers which is the reason shit came into existence in the first place but oh no, LARPer piece of shit running around in loincloths must be catered to.

You aren't even bitching for a reason, and your hyperbole is ineffectual. Outside of Torment's unusual mechanics, where armor was borderline non-applicable (which, I admit, does require a certain suspension of disbelief in some instances...but hey, its an inter-planar RPG y'know?), the IE games didn't cater to retarded roleplaying armor decisions at all. Barring the intervention of spells, if you try to sword-and-board in leather, with no helmet, using a buckler, you will get your ass presented to you on a mithril platter.

 

[villain of the story]

That's because IE games did some things right, AC being one of them, which is something Sawyer doesn't like at all. Oh, and you aren't even responding to me for a reason and your points are irrelevant. Sawyer talking about complexity for the sake of complexity (you couldn't do it on PnP) without a context; why do we need complexity? Have you ever looked at one of the many good PnP RPG systems out there which resolve all of your worries in simple, elegant ways easily translatable into a computer game, Mr. Sawyer? Of course not because since now you want to go completely KRAZIEEE! without publisher intervention, so you came up with FR derivative crap and now you would like to re-invent DnD with a TWIST!. Uh-huh, I certainly am not bitching for a reason.

You are, however, likely entirely correct that my rants are ineffectual. What, Obsidian devs reading this might go "hmmm, some good points there, let's look at the mentioned source material for ideas" ? I think not.

 

[tuluse]

I think he means something like you can do percentage based damage reduction. No one wants to figure out what 17% damage reduction is in PnP, but you can easily do that with a computer.

 

[Excidium]

"What does this mean for Project Eternity? It means designing a new armor system that rectifies deficiencies of older systems while maintaining a familiar feel is tricky."

There's the problem right there. I know they have to cater to the IE fanbase but that doesn't mean they need to limit themselves by D&D mechanics.

 

[villain of the story]

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.

There are amour penalties in AoD. R00FLES!

you seem to have completely missed the point, and also seem stupid by the way.

You might be correct, I would never claim that I am not stupid at some capacity. And I also might have missed some point you were making.

 

[DragoFireheart]

"What does this mean for Project Eternity? It means designing a new armor system that rectifies deficiencies of older systems while maintaining a familiar feel is tricky."

There's the problem right there. I know they have to cater to the IE fanbase but that doesn't mean they need to limit themselves by D&D mechanics.

- They're probably going to mimic some DnD mechanics because of how well some of those mechanics translate towards a game system and ease-of-understanding.

Working with whole numbers and some negatives at higher levels is better than % based numbers for a game.

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.

There are amour penalties in AoD. R00FLES!

you seem to have completely missed the point, and also seem stupid by the way.

You might be correct, I would never claim that I am not stupid at some capacity. And I also might have missed some point you were making.

- There's no such thing as stupidity, only ignorance and bad genes.

 

[Scruffy]

I am simply saying that what differentiate armors in reality is their weight and the possibility of easy movement. Those are the criteria you use to choose and armor, of course ignoring, for gameplay-related reasons, economic reasons and such.
If, in game, you alter these differentiating factors by making armor that should be heavy, light (as in Baldur’s Gate games for instance), then the discriminating reason for choosing an armor instead of another ceases to exist, and it only becomes a matter of “which is more useful”.
There’s no point in getting a full plate armor +1, if I am better protected by Drizzt’s amor, which is lighter and therefore more useful, since it gives me the same armor class. (Yes, I always killed drizzt to get his armor, deal with it, I’m a powergamer).
So, if a plate armor protects me better, but is also light to wear, I’ll simply use that and that will be it. If my speed is not hindered, if my rate of attack is the same, etc etc, but I get better protection, I’ll obviously use the armor that gives me better protection.
BUT if this better protection comes at a cost (my movements are slow, both in walking speed and attack speed, I need to have a minimum strength requirement, etc), then I might choose to settle for the lower tier armor, which protects me less, but allows me to run, attack at my full capacity, allows me to carry more stuff in inventory because of the lesser weight, etc.
So, as I was saying, “better” amor needs to have a downside if you want armor to have an impact on gameplay. After all, full plate armor was rarely used, because it’s heavy as fuck and because you become tired fast and are a much slower, and therefore easier, target to hit. I do realize that this is a fantasy world, and people wear full plate armor even when they go to sleep, but that’s precisely the point that needs to change to make armors meaningful and not just an upgrade with no drawbacks.

 

[Bulba]

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.

Conversely, a big and slow ogre should be relatively easy to defeat for a lightly armored character, who can hit quickly and avoid being hit

are you suggesting save scumming tactic? it sure sounds so
OH NO MY GUY GOT 1 HIT KILL

 

[Scruffy]

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.

Conversely, a big and slow ogre should be relatively easy to defeat for a lightly armored character, who can hit quickly and avoid being hit

are you suggesting save scumming tactic? it sure sounds so
OH NO MY GUY GOT 1 HIT KILL

No, i’m suggesting not jumping in a fight recklessly and actually planning ahead basing your tactics on knowledge of strong and weak points of your enemies. Shocking, I know, after all in real world fights and war everyone simply starts running towards the enemies’ ambush/minefield/vastly superior forces and everything always turns out well.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL

PLATE:
.

Examples of lamellar armor and shit, please! Curious to see how you'd represent it.

I don't know much about lamellar armour and shit. Or, more precisely, lamellar armour is too wide a category, it seems, including both metal and leather in exclusive or mixed variations. At any rate, I imagine it would come down to a few relatively factual parameters such as rigidity (for mobility and reflex modifiers), weight and weight distribution (for fatigue or similar), material (to rule whether a hit can reach the flesh through the armour) and configuration of the material, and derived parameters for abstraction such as susceptibility to cut/slash/thrust/blunt/missile (eg. damage threshold) and difficulty to hit exposed parts (eg. AC).

I imagine that the values for derived parameters, whatever they might be, could be calculated from the former. That's how weapon parameters are handled in JA2 1.13; the authors use real-world data to arrive at various derived stats to be used in-game.

Well, a pity. I wished I had found some knowledge beyond plate/mail in here, as they are the standard fare of all fantasy, but every other nation outside of the old world (a hyperbole, I know) dabbled extensively with lamellar armor (metal one) dabbled in it in the ancient and medieval age, as it ptovides a midway between mail and plate in terms of craftmanship and cost. Haven't you played mound and blade? Lamellar armour there reflects its real use/agility pretty well IMHO. Would be nice to see in fantasy and have a choice between tank and fragile speedster.

 

[Primordial Soup Nazi]

That's because IE games did some things right, AC being one of them, which is something Sawyer doesn't like at all. Oh, and you aren't even responding to me for a reason and your points are irrelevant. Sawyer talking about complexity for the sake of complexity (you couldn't do it on PnP) without a context; why do we need complexity? Have you ever looked at one of the many good PnP RPG systems out there which resolve all of your worries in simple, elegant ways easily translatable into a computer game, Mr. Sawyer? Of course not because since now you want to go completely KRAZIEEE! without publisher intervention, so you came up with FR derivative crap and now you would like to re-invent DnD with a TWIST!. Uh-huh, I certainly am not bitching for a reason.

You are, however, likely entirely correct that my rants are ineffectual. What, Obsidian devs reading this might go "hmmm, some good points there, let's look at the mentioned source material for ideas" ? I think not.

I dunno, maybe there's a more concrete "point" in this quagmire, but it genuinely feels like you're rallying against!....nothing.

In your first post, you gripe about some likelihood of Sawyer "shooting for the mundane." K. Now, you're griping about complexity. Why do we need it? Because a certain degree of it adds interest, and perhaps more importantly, it adds choices, even if said choices are sometimes of minimal strategic impact. People enjoy having options, and I don't think what has been ruminated on is anything that would be particularly difficult to implement, or awkward for the player-base to understand and avail themselves of.

If, in game, you alter these differentiating factors by making armor that should be heavy, light (as in Baldur’s Gate games for instance), then the discriminating reason for choosing an armor instead of another ceases to exist, and it only becomes a matter of “which is more useful”.

So, if a plate armor protects me better, but is also light to wear, I’ll simply use that and that will be it. If my speed is not hindered, if my rate of attack is the same, etc etc, but I get better protection, I’ll obviously use the armor that gives me better protection.
BUT if this better protection comes at a cost (my movements are slow, both in walking speed and attack speed, I need to have a minimum strength requirement, etc), then I might choose to settle for the lower tier armor, which protects me less, but allows me to run, attack at my full capacity, allows me to carry more stuff in inventory because of the lesser weight, etc.
So, as I was saying, “better” amor needs to have a downside if you want armor to have an impact on gameplay. After all, full plate armor was rarely used, because it’s heavy as fuck and because you become tired fast and are a much slower, and therefore easier, target to hit. I do realize that this is a fantasy world, and people wear full plate armor even when they go to sleep, but that’s precisely the point that needs to change to make armors meaningful and not just an upgrade with no drawbacks.

Trade-offs are much more dynamic, I agree. Its also worth mentioning that, in maintaining some palpable continuity with the IE games, its quite possible that they'll tie armor choice availability to a given class as a counterbalance to their other given abilities (ala 2nd Edition), e.g. a Paladin can sport some plate swag, but for a Cipher? Not so much.

 

[ghostdog]

He can just log into his denizsi alt.

Really ? Isn't denizsi a female ? Vots always seemed like a guy to me. Wasn't (s)he asking for a codex brothel in PE ?

Race traitor takes a whole new meaning here.

 

[Scruffy]

He can just log into his denizsi alt.

Really ? Isn't denizsi a female ? Vots always seemed like a guy to me.

You must be new here

 

[ghostdog]

Sorry I hadn't updated my vots.txt in a long time.

Damn, that also explains the cute, pink signature...

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sawyer talking about complexity for the sake of complexity (you couldn't do it on PnP) without a context; why do we need complexity? Have you ever looked at one of the many good PnP RPG systems out there which resolve all of your worries in simple, elegant ways easily translatable into a computer game, Mr. Sawyer?

Mmm. I don't know. I used to really want to see something like Rolemaster translated into CRPG form with all its crazy crit tables and critical miss tables and such handled by the computer... in fact, years ago I assumed something like that was coming with the processing power of computers used to handle all the stuff that tends to bog down a tabletop game in grognard hell. I still wouldn't mind seeing something like this, though I may be better served by strategy games in this regard.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Sawyer talking about complexity for the sake of complexity (you couldn't do it on PnP) without a context; why do we need complexity? Have you ever looked at one of the many good PnP RPG systems out there which resolve all of your worries in simple, elegant ways easily translatable into a computer game, Mr. Sawyer?

Mmm. I don't know. I used to really want to see something like Rolemaster translated into CRPG form with all its crazy crit tables and critical miss tables and such handled by the computer... in fact, years ago I assumed something like that was coming with the processing power of computers used to handle all the stuff that tends to bog down a tabletop game in grognard hell. I still wouldn't mind seeing something like this, though I may be better served by strategy games in this regard.

Was Rolemaster the one with about a hundred different critical hit effects? If it is I also remember wondering when that sort of thing was going to be implemented. The closest thing we have is crippled limbs in the FO games.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Was Rolemaster the one with about a hundred different critical hit effects? If it is I also remember wondering when that sort of thing was going to be implemented. The closest thing we have is crippled limbs in the FO games.

Yeah that's it. There were ways to critically fail so hard that you ended up killing yourself and so on. There were pages of these things for various situations and weapons/spells used, all based on percentile die rolls.

 

[DwarvenFood]

He can just log into his denizsi alt.

The top donator ? Yeah that will work washing off the taint

 

[oldmanpaco]

He can just log into his denizsi alt.

The top donator ? Yeah that will work washing off the taint

Has that ever been confirmed? I always thought denizsi was a girl pretending to be a boy pretending to be a girl trying to get people to think she was a boy. vots is just head case.

 

[Jasede]

Edit: I'm late; see PE thread for new interview with MCA

We should start an MCA fanclub.

 

[tuluse]

I thought the codex was his fan club.

 

[Roguey]

This Kickstarter Update is the perfect example of what a load of bullshit the "well, P&P systems just don't fit into a digital platform..." is. GURPS' armor system would be perfectly translatable to the PC medium, there is no reason that they have to work out all this shit from the ground up. I'm not saying "use GURPS" obviously, I'm just saying: either hire someone to do this for you/with you or use an existing system, or at least base yours strongly upon one. These guys are not RPG system designers, they are video game designers. How is it they can be so reductionist in their view of another field of work that they can claim to be as good at it as people who do it professionally without bashing an eyelid?

Josh has played GURPS. He's not copying the armor system because it doesn't fit what he's going for.

 

[Grunker]

I'm not saying "use GURPS" obviously