Editorial Matt Barton on the state of today's CRPGs

[hiver]

What he and many of you fail to see is that the mass market, AAA games and consolation of games into one same mish-mush - caused all we have brewing now.

By forcefully twisting and pouring everything into one soulless direction they have created vast market that was left completely untapped.
A market, completely closed to them.

Action - reaction.

 

[crafthack]

Akalabeth (in dungeons) and Proving Grounds has FPP a decade before Arena or UU were a twinkle in Todd or Richard's eye, or is Mr Matt referring to single-character cRPG's with FPP in general?

 

[circ]

I wouldn't call half a million people backing Kickstarters a 'vast market' just yet, but whatever.

 

[felipepepe]

I wouldn't call half a million people backing Kickstarters a 'vast market' just yet, but whatever.

Yeah, I'm curious to see the final sales when the games are released, that should give a nice measurement on how things are.

 

[hiver]

I dont think it really matters. Thats the thinking of obsolete business models.

What is important is the fact that "we" can poor fucking millions into projects like Wasteland2 and that there are dev companies who would rather work on such a project then stay in publisher constrained model aiming for some insane sales figures.
That is - how things are.
The indie games - free to play games... (i mean...fuck... actual free to play games? who saw that coming?) everything is a consequence of those AAA assholes trying to force and close the market down to their ways.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Reading that makes it sounds like Matt would enjoy Dark Souls if not for the fact that it's an action game. The story is unobtrusive, the game sets a relatively high bar and expects the player to meet it, doesn't particularly have ego stroking moments. Dark Souls, RPG of the year 2012!

I have to admit I'm kinda curious if he's played some "Strategy games with RPG elements" like the recent Xcom, or Blood Bowl from Cyanide. In fact, I believe I'll leave a comment asking!

 

[felipepepe]

I dont think it really matters. Thats the thinking of obsolete business models.

Still, the AAA companies go after where the money is. Dragon Age 1 already sold more than DA2, if PE sells more than both, it's a clear sign that their attempts to cater RPG fans are wrong...

 

[bhlaab]

Jesus what a bunch of pointless bitching without an actual argument

"CRPGs are not the genre of the elite anymore. This is the genre of the spoiled rotten brat."
Seriously??? The 'elite' video game likers club is dead??

 

[Excidium]

Incoherent and self-important. It's like a mirror to the codex.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I think Matt's full of shit, but for some reason I can't stop watching his channel. Drink on good man, and I will continue to throw $5 a month at you!

 

[eric__s]

Why do you guys care what Internet Man #134559 says about RPGs? Heads up guys, dorito_the_hedgehog posted a diatribe about strafing in RPGs on www.fragglerock.info. If I cared about Matt Barton's heavy handed reviews and opinions, I'd read his site and watch his videos.

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

 

[eric__s]

Wow, fragglerock.info exists. I just typed the most ridiculous name I could think of.

 

[crafthack]

I wouldn't call half a million people backing Kickstarters a 'vast market' just yet, but whatever.

The US secretary of defense McNamara once said when a million vietnam war protestors marched on the Pentagon, that if one million people were willing to do that, then many many times that many stood behind them. And that he couldn't get anyone to protest supporting the war if he paid their bus-fares.

So I think that even if the numbers of people supporting RPG on Kickstarter are small, that's it's only representative of the hardkore vanguard of cRPG elites, because they are willing to spend their own money on vague promises of future cRPG glories with no assurances. So if or when these games like Wasteland 2 come out and if or when they rock, I think at least 10 times as many people will buy them.

How many people do you think could write as good as Mr Matt did, but in favor of dumbfuck gonorrhea disease shooters? A human being can only like dumbfuck xbawks games from a position of ignorance and stupidity. Asking a shooter gamer why he likes shootan games is like asking an illiterate poor person in the Third world why he doesn't like reading.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

That sounds suspiciously like something that would involve effort.

 

[hiver]

I dont think it really matters. Thats the thinking of obsolete business models.

Still, the AAA companies go after where the money is. Dragon Age 1 already sold more than DA2, if PE sells more than both, it's a clear sign that their attempts to cater RPG fans are wrong...

AAA companies can go fuck themselves.

Who gives a shit? I dont want them to start making real RPGs. I want them to fuck off. I dont need them, nor could they do it even if they wanted to.
As for PE... Obsidian (and Black Isle, really... lets not forget that Cain, Boyarsky, Anderson left before BI was formed and Fallout2 was their creation, not BI team) was always more interested in general market instead of "niche". PE is just continuation of that. If they make a good game they will replace what bioware was supposed to be. Which is good idea from the perspective of not fighting for the slice of cake InXile is aiming for)
Also AAA companies never even attempted to cater to RPG fans.

 

[Excidium]

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

That sounds suspiciously like something that would involve effort.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

That sounds suspiciously like something that would involve effort.

I can already see the video of Codex trying to define a 'what is an RPG'... www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1zMfsdPMA#t=5m44s

 

[crafthack]

the games like Skyrim or Mass Effect are in a different universe than crpgs, I would be surprised if they even knew what RPG stands for (afaik it's prob rocket-propelled grenades), I reckon if you started talking to some of these newshit "RPG gamers" who play modern Bethesda/bioware games, and you talked about traditional crpg stuff, they would totally blank stare you and have no idea what you were talking about. Like I said totally different universe, "RPG game" to them doesn't even mean "role-playing game".

All those companies did is steal a few of the superficial parts of RPGs, including the three letters "RPG" as an abbreviation, and used it to create shooter games for dumbfucks

 

[villain of the story]

Some of his points are outright retarded. Especially this one:

What's happened to CRPGs, at least with major releases, is an increased tendency to make them as much like the reigning genre of shooters as possible, going so far as to use the same engines.

I would expect someone like Matt to be more aware of what an engine actually is. He is showcasing the exact same idiocy as many here does. A "game engine" isn't analogous to fundamental design principles. An engine is a collection of tools and APIs honed to enable quick development of games. Some are more limited and restricting than others in the kind of games you can do with them but those limitations hardly have relevance any more. You could make a semi-valid point about game engines in mid-90s and before as certain game engines were created exclusively for certain games but even then, there were examples that used a given engine outside its originally intended functions. Can you find anyone who will compare Quake 2 to Anachronox (both use ID Tech 2) and go "GEEEE THEY USED QUAKE ENGINE DECLINE OF RPGS ANACHRONOX IS JUST LIKE QUAKE 2 FUCK THIS SHIT!"? If you can, smother that illiterate motherfucker to death right there right then.

And the things are even better now. Unreal Engine, Unity engine or whatever: they have long become general purpose tools. "Going so far as to use the same engine"? Heh. Any judgement simply based on the engine used is quite simply as retarded as it gets.

This shift towards shooter-ization began very early, of course, with games like Ultima Underworld (1993), Elder Scrolls: Arena (1994), and Might & Magic VI (1998).

It's very short sighted to throw these games into shooter-ization cart. Matt is disregarding context. Some people simply have a different vision of how a RPG could be done. Get the fuck over it. I would understand if these titles were pivotal in the sense that they irreversibly altered the developmental progress of certain games but it's quite the contrary. In addition to those games being good games by their own rights, they also led to much better things. Daggerfall came out of Arena. Looking Glass built a legacy following Ultima Underworld. MM6... well, why MM6 in particular, arguably the best installment in the series? WTF Matt? It seems to me like you are dismissing certain games based on shallow similarities to Doom and sounds more like you are simply whining because FIRST PERSON IS EVIL!. Get the fuck off of your high horse.

There couldn't have been worse examples to use to address the shooterisation problem. Those games were first-person because the developers had the distinct vision of building them up in first person in a time where they had relatively more freedom to pursue their vision and they did fucking good. FFS. I know he is butthurt about games, I am too but I don't suffocate my brain cells in fucking nostalgia.

 

[J_C]

Why do you guys care what Internet Man #134559 says about RPGs? Heads up guys, dorito_the_hedgehog posted a diatribe about strafing in RPGs on www.fragglerock.info. If I cared about Matt Barton's heavy handed reviews and opinions, I'd read his site and watch his videos.

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

Yeah, and who would make contant for the Codex channel? You? At least Matt is trying his best to show us the great games of the past, and presenteng good interviews.

Daggerfall came out of Arena. Looking Glass built a legacy following Ultima Underworld. MM6... well, why MM6 in particular, arguably the best installment in the series? WTF Matt? It seems to me like you are dismissing certain games based on shallow similarities to Doom and sounds more like you are simply whining because FIRST PERSON IS EVIL!. Get the fuck off of your high horse.

There couldn't have been worse examples to use to address the shooterisation problem.

THIS. I don't know how could Matt include those games as good examples for the problem.

 

[villain of the story]

Why are people getting so riled up a few errors in what is basically just an angry rant (truely fitting of the Codex)? Fuck that, to you J_C!

Because despite the general attitude on the forums, articles at the Codex more or less achieve better quality in addressing problems, providing well structured analysis and expressing frustration than Matt's nostalgic claptrap drivel. RPGs, "the genre of the elite" at any point? Give me a fucking break. He should stick to his retrospective stuff at YouTube.

 

[CrustyBot]

I like the nerdrage and sentiment, but I can't find myself agreeing with his points. He's gone off on "feel" and just ranted about the :declining:, but the result is that his arguments don't hold water and felipepepe is spot on with his comment about spoiled brats earlier in this thread.

IMO, he could've gotten a lot more mileage if he had taken the angle of RPGs/gaming moving from a medium of systemic interactions to a medium of passive spectatorship. That's really what's killing RPGs, because it's a perverse mindset that permeates throughout the entirety of a game's design. From quest compasses, to HD Super Graphix, to romances, to QTEs, to generalized "dumbing down". Because to me, that's what it looks like J_C is angry about.

His points about sports, engines and even shooters, in this context, smell like bullshit.

 

[felipepepe]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with WoW, Skyrim and Mass Effect existing, as long as there is also RPG games of the kind I like. Hopefully 2013 will bring us ton of those, then the AAA RPGS can do what they want that I won't care anymore.

Meanwhile Matt sound off so purist that hates even Ultima Underworld... Ultima 7 was released at the same time, your TRUE CRPG EXPERIENCE had just been released and you still managed to get butthurted about Ultima Underworld being released for another kind of player?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

It's very short sighted to throw these games into shooter-ization cart. Matt is disregarding context. Some people simply have a different vision of how a RPG could be done. Get the fuck over it. I would understand if these titles were pivotal in the sense that they irreversibly altered the developmental progress of certain games but it's quite the contrary. In addition to those games being good games by their own rights, they also led to much better things. Daggerfall came out of Arena. Looking Glass built a legacy following Ultima Underworld. MM6... well, why MM6 in particular, arguably the best installment in the series? WTF Matt? It seems to me like you are dismissing certain games based on shallow similarities to Doom and sounds more like you are simply whining because FIRST PERSON IS EVIL!. Get the fuck off of your high horse.

I don't think anyone who watched at least a few of his videos should find the above surprising. He's not doing a good job at hiding the fact that he is just another guy who deems isometric games made around year 2000 (BG, Fallout etc) truest, bestest crpgs ever and a paradigm of how crpgs should be made. I always felt that he plays and covers other crpgs just for the street cred and in fact doesn't like them much or at all.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think anyone who watched at least a few of his videos should find the above surprising. He's not doing a good job at hiding the fact that he is just another guy who deems isometric games made around year 2000 (BG, Fallout etc) truest, bestest crpgs ever and a paradigm of how crpgs should be made. I always felt that he plays and covers other crpgs just for the street cred and in fact doesn't like them much or at all.

Actually, Matt kind of hated the IE games due to their being real time. I think he's a Gold Boxer.