RPG Codex Top 50 cRPGs - Retards who cannot read and Discussion thread

[Volourn]

"For me, the reason why I rate Arcanum so highly (if not the best crpg evar) is because its the most closely realised vision of a pnp game to computer format to this day"


Then... NWN shouldm be your favoirte CRPG since it is the closest to pnp.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Why put skill checks on such a high pedestal? We appreciate that the town whore comes to church and attends the congregations, but we can not let her lead service.

Why?

BECAUSE RPGS ABILITIES WITH NO NON-COMBAT USE GODDAMN SUCK ASS. IT'S FUCKING INCONSISTENT. IT'S FUCKING BORING. IT'S FUCKING STERILE.

YES I'M A PROUD STORYFAG FUCK YOU!

Sure, I am down with having non-combat skills and whatnot.

The quality of these things alone deciding a game's greatness? I am not sure.

In Fallout 2, you take 150% Science skill and use it to get a Cybernetic Brain for a small gun wielding companion. If you have something like 75% Science skill, you are out of luck and won't get the Cybernetic Brain. Okay, so that's it? That's all? It's cool to have it in the game, but these things make a game better than everything else? How? Why?

It wasn't binary... if you had a lower skill, you'd get some inferior brain like a monkey's. Or a dog's (I think?). Having a very high science skill felt particularly rewarding in that area. Not to mention if you didn't *know* the details (I didn't) you'd just pump the science skill because hacking was cool, and voila - you got a great companion (well... an efficient one at least) as a reward!

 

[Vault Dweller]

We can agree that combat is more challenging in BG2 (and I don't recall anyone ever praising Fallout for combat), but combat difficulty isn't the main factor determining an RPG's standing and quality.

O rly? And what if I rephrase "combat difficulty" as "combat depth"?

Same. I like a well done combat RPG (dungeon crawler, etc) as much as the next guy here, but for me combat is only one of the aspects. I think it's telling that the Codex top 3 games - Fallout, Arcanum, and Planescape - are games that offer more than just combat. In fact, their combat is weak and they are liked despite of it and liked more than games that do combat only and do it well.

 

[mindx2]

I've already avoided putting The Eternal Dagger and Phantasie II in there because they never did come out for the PC. Crooked Bee has put down Deathlord, Centauri Alliance and Captive II: Liberation, none of which managed to get a PC release.

I assumed PC meant "personal computer," which Apple II, C64 and Amiga all were. Why restrict it to IBM PC specifically?

Will edit my list though, if that's how Jaesun wants to play.

I have re-considered my position on this. Henceforth:

1. The game must have originally appeared on the PC, C64/C128, Amiga or any Apple computer when released.

Then I want my Dungeon Master one changed to Chaos Strikes Back. Loved this one so much more even though DM was great.

edit: never mind, I was still able to edit my original list.

 

[Infinitron]

Same. I like a well done combat RPG (dungeon crawler, etc) as much as the next guy here, but for me combat is only one of the aspects. I think it's telling that the Codex top 3 games - Fallout, Arcanum, and Planescape - are games that offer more than just combat. In fact, their combat is weak and they are liked despite of it and liked more than games that do combat only and do it well.

Well, we'll see what the new Top 3 is after this. I think I've made my thoughts about "RPGs that do just one thing well" quite clear so I won't repeat myself.

 

[SCO]

Even emergent combat doesn't need to be 'primary'. Imagine a real battle, with more than two neutral (to the party) sides. The pc crash in, and the other sides don't just forget they're fighting eachother. The AI adapts, it prioritizes. Maybe it even recognizes the pc party as allies, since they're only hitting one side or vice-versa. Or maybe it recognizes betrayal, but doesn't necessarily stop attacking the other side either.

That kind of crap requires more work, more depth of simulation, more bugs, that the (very ok) ALLY/ENEMY/NEUTRAL classic system.
Programming is HARD.

 

[MMXI]

I don't think I've agreed with Wyrmlord more than I have done in this thread. It's scary! But yes, binary non-combat skill checks are all well and good, but they are so awful from a gameplay perspective that any cRPG that features them in abundance while lacking severely in terms of combat (Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Arcanum) is trumped by cRPGs with even a half-decent combat system. It also doesn't help when a game lacks party creation, which even Baldur's Gate allows in multiplayer mode. This is why you'll find lots of old-school party-based RPGs on my list but no Arcanum, Fallout or even Planescape: Torment.

Fuck no, because narrative trumps systems.

You're a quality poster and I agree with you often, but I have the complete opposite opinion here.

 

[evdk]

Fuck no, because narrative trumps systems.

You're a quality poster and I agree with you often, but I have the complete opposite opinion here.

Well, this is the classic combatfag vs storyfag divide - what parts of the game being shit are you willing to overlook and still consider the overall game good.

 

[Revenant]

What, no Ultima V on the top 50??? Unbelievable of the Codex

 

[Infinitron]

I demand a fight to the death.

 

[skuphundaku]

I just realized that KotOR, and, much more importantly, KotOR 2 have been released on Xbox before they were released on PC. This goes to show how absurd Jaesun's "developed for Wintel" rule is. Just amending it to add this and that kind of PC is just not going to cut it if, in the end, you still end up with disallowing KotOR 2. You could simply say "no JRPGs", but even that would suck because it would exclude Anachronox.

 

[Excidium]

But yes, binary non-combat skill checks are all well and good

No they are not. Binary checks are fucking terrible and probably the #1 thing that needs to be fixed in CRPGs.

 

[MMXI]

But yes, binary non-combat skill checks are all well and good

No they are not. Binary checks are fucking terrible and probably the #1 thing that needs to be fixed in CRPGs.

That's what I meant. They are excusable when they are in addition to more focused features (such as combat), but they are actually terrible and cannot be relied on to make compelling gameplay. They are indeed the #1 thing that needs to be fixed in cRPGs, which is why Wyrmlord is spot on in this thread.

 

[felipepepe]

I just realized that KotOR, and, much more importantly, KotOR 2 have been released on Xbox before they were released on PC. This goes to show how absurd Jaesun's "developed for Wintel" rule is. Just amending it to add this and that kind of PC is just not going to cut it if, in the end, you still end up with disallowing KotOR 2. You could simply say "no JRPGs", but even that would suck because it would exclude Anachronox.

I get what Jaesun is doing, and honestly KOTOR is the only exception to the rule... And once this is finished I do intend to ask the staff/do it myself a "Top 50 console RPGs" list...

 

[Jaesun]

Updated OP to include Atari ST.

meh you are really just nitpicking, KotOR and KotOR II are fine to include. As well as Anachronox. If you feel a game is a cRPG then list it.

 

[dnf]

I just realized that KotOR, and, much more importantly, KotOR 2 have been released on Xbox before they were released on PC. This goes to show how absurd Jaesun's "developed for Wintel" rule is. Just amending it to add this and that kind of PC is just not going to cut it if, in the end, you still end up with disallowing KotOR 2. You could simply say "no JRPGs", but even that would suck because it would exclude Anachronox.

What's the purpose of a list with hack n' slash, Jrpgs and tatical rpgs bundled together. These list should be sub-genre based, its the only way to be relevant...

 

[Deuce Traveler]

What, no Ultima V on the top 50??? Unbelievable of the Codex

We'll rage together in a totally hetero way. : x

 

[DwarvenFood]

Wonder if we get 50 distinct entries at the end..

 

[Blaine]

Well, this is the classic combatfag vs storyfag divide - what parts of the game being shit are you willing to overlook and still consider the overall game good.

In my case, I'm not willing to overlook anything. If the game features lots of combat and/or an involved story, then the combat and/or story had better be adequate at the very least.

I was reminded of Escape Velocity: Nova today, which isn't really an RPG, but manages to have an involved, well written story with plenty of choice and consequence (oodles of it, in fact) as well as featuring very entertaining combat and ancillary gameplay.

 

[Jaesun]

Question: Would this mean ME1 can't be listed but ME2 and ME3 can be since ME1 was released on 360 first before PC but ME2 and ME3 were released on both at same time meaning theyw ere 'originally' on PC?

Feel free to post ME1 on your list if you want Volo. Even though it is not a RPG. r00fles!

I'll clarify the op rules a bit further for shit action games during the console age.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Updated OP to include Atari ST.

meh you are really just nitpicking, KotOR and KotOR II are fine to include. As well as Anachronox. If you feel a game is a cRPG then list it.

Sweet. My first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 130 XE. Good times.

 

[made]

What, no Ultima V on the top 50??? Unbelievable of the Codex

In fact it doesn't show up in the list at all, but Lazarus does. Maybe jack combined U5 and U5L votes, thinking it's the same game.

And if the KOTOR port is allowed then surely Dark Souls should be as well? /dramabait

 

[skuphundaku]

I just realized that KotOR, and, much more importantly, KotOR 2 have been released on Xbox before they were released on PC. This goes to show how absurd Jaesun's "developed for Wintel" rule is. Just amending it to add this and that kind of PC is just not going to cut it if, in the end, you still end up with disallowing KotOR 2. You could simply say "no JRPGs", but even that would suck because it would exclude Anachronox.

What's the purpose of a list with hack n' slash, Jrpgs and tatical rpgs bundled together. These list should be sub-genre based, its the only way to be relevant...

Well, if we throw out hack'n'slashes, then the following will be automatically excluded:
Diablo + Hellfire
Diablo 2 + Lord of Destruction
all Diablo clones
Icewind Dale + Heart of Winter + Trials of the Luremaster
Icewind Dale 2
many, if not most, Goldbox games
and many others

At that point, this thread will have become just an exquisite form of the already traditional Codex circle jerk ritual of "What is an RPG?". Making sub-lists is just ignoring the elephant in the room. "How to draw the lines between RPG types" would become just yet another refinement of our beloved "What is an RPG?" topic.

 

[skuphundaku]

Updated OP to include Atari ST.

meh you are really just nitpicking, KotOR and KotOR II are fine to include. As well as Anachronox. If you feel a game is a cRPG then list it.

OK, that's fair. I don't think that the "created for PC" rule would exclude many games that would show up in our lists, and, of those that it would, many wouldn't even realize that those games were released first on consoles (KotOR, KotOR 2, Mass Effect). The elephant in the room here is Dark Souls. I've seen too much bitching and dismissiveness about Dark Souls being "popamole for console game" in spite of the fact that it is a great game and a better RPG than the vast majority of recent "developed for PC" RPGs.

 

[dnf]

I just realized that KotOR, and, much more importantly, KotOR 2 have been released on Xbox before they were released on PC. This goes to show how absurd Jaesun's "developed for Wintel" rule is. Just amending it to add this and that kind of PC is just not going to cut it if, in the end, you still end up with disallowing KotOR 2. You could simply say "no JRPGs", but even that would suck because it would exclude Anachronox.

What's the purpose of a list with hack n' slash, Jrpgs and tatical rpgs bundled together. These list should be sub-genre based, its the only way to be relevant...

Well, if we throw out hack'n'slashes, then the following will be automatically excluded:
Diablo + Hellfire
Diablo 2 + Lord of Destruction
all Diablo clones
Icewind Dale + Heart of Winter + Trials of the Luremaster
Icewind Dale 2
many, if not most, Goldbox games
and many others

At that point, this thread will have become just an exquisite form of the already traditional Codex circle jerk ritual of "What is an RPG?". Making sub-lists is just ignoring the elephant in the room. "How to draw the lines between RPG types" would become just yet another refinement of our beloved "What is an RPG?" topic.

Im' not saying we should trow all of the Diablo clones in these list. I say we make a list with games that share common traits. Bundling together these games with, say, roguelikes is just retarded and serve no purpose...