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Wildman Discussion Thread

Repressed Homosexual
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The problem is that Kickstarter is not enough to support middle sized development, it's as simple as that. People thought it would allow it, but it only works for very small teams with very few overhead costs, it's not enough to give employees day jobs and benefits for a long period of time. It doesn't allow enough time to make quality games either.

Agreed. A project that pulls in $4m should be able to support a team of fifteen to twenty people for two to three years, but only a very few projects manage to raise that much.

A year or two is plenty of time to make a quality game, though. It was done all the time in the 1990s.

With the magnified costs of making graphics and assets nowadays I'm not sure.
 
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HobGoblin42

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Running costs:

Estimated salaries: Programmer 80k/year, Artist 60k/year, (Level) Designer 50k/year

20 people with ~65k/year = 1.3 mio
+ Office costs (200 sqm) ~40k/year
+ Misc cost (insurances, hardware, electricity, taxes, etc.) ~30k/year
total: ~1.4 mio/year

So, with 4 mio you can run a studio at this size for about 2.5 years. For a good team of developers, that should be more than enough to create a great game.
 

Moribund

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But even Dungeon Siege 3 has about 50 people in its credits and took longer than that. I agree you SHOULD be able to make a good game with that kind of money but in this case it's just a bad idea and they ran too far with bad idea.

Also there's way more games being made, which are all more and more similar to each other. Meaning it costs more and more to make a game simply because talent is so diluted in the USA. Which I guess could be summed up with "they are not that good of developers". That's also why aside from general cheaper operating costs eastern europe/russian developers are likely to be many times more efficient.
 

Metro

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This guy is clueless if he thinks his games were comparable to the Wing Commander series and Infinity engine RPGs. Never mind the fact that the latter two also offer a return to genres that have been pretty non-existent the last several years. Surprise, Chris, there is no fanbase for Dungeon Siege, Supreme Commander, and Demigod! He really needs to pull the plug on this Kickstarter and start thinking of a way to start over small (and probably just remain small). It's viable. There are plenty of small studios that survive and are profitable. But these constant articles, interviews, and videos are killing his esteem in the public. People are starting to view him as some pathetic Willy Loman character constantly droning on about his glory days. Enough is enough.
 

DeepOcean

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But even Dungeon Siege 3 has about 50 people in its credits and took longer than that. I agree you SHOULD be able to make a good game with that kind of money but in this case it's just a bad idea and they ran too far with bad idea.

Also there's way more games being made, which are all more and more similar to each other. Meaning it costs more and more to make a game simply because talent is so diluted in the USA. Which I guess could be summed up with "they are not that good of developers". That's also why aside from general cheaper operating costs eastern europe/russian developers are likely to be many times more efficient.
Dungeon siege 3 has cuscenes, voice acting, an entire new engine was made, maybe the team got 50 people because Square Enix wanted the game released as fast as it could (the financial health of square enix isn't exactly all that good).
 

Modron

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But even Dungeon Siege 3 has about 50 people in its credits and took longer than that. I agree you SHOULD be able to make a good game with that kind of money but in this case it's just a bad idea and they ran too far with bad idea.

Also there's way more games being made, which are all more and more similar to each other. Meaning it costs more and more to make a game simply because talent is so diluted in the USA. Which I guess could be summed up with "they are not that good of developers". That's also why aside from general cheaper operating costs eastern europe/russian developers are likely to be many times more efficient.

I don't know if comparisons to DS 3 are valid for purposes of time frame and man power as Obsidian built an engine specifically for the game. If you're working on an established engine with people familiar with it, then it might be possible you could churn out a game with that kind of budget.

Like others have said before, I am sure some publishers are watching KS for opportunities to pickup good deals on nearly finished projects whose funds dried up. Granted if that happened to GPG again they probably would be back in the same spot 2 years from now.
 

almondblight

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These sentiments are very much in his favor, because he's absolutely correct. In the grand scheme of things, computer games are nothing more than entertainment, luxurious diversions. Ethical people wouldn't want their customers to overspend, either.

That's why he's included 5k and 10k tiers? This seems like more marketing BS from him. Did anyone really think he would have stopped the Kickstarter campaign when he suggested it? Or that laying off his employees wasn't the best business move he could make (as opposed to acting like it was only made for moral reasons)?
 

Blaine

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That's why he's included 5k and 10k tiers?

This may come as a shock to you, but some people can very easily afford $5k, $10k, or even more. I know of a few Star Citizen pledgers who pledged the $10k tier and who own things such as enormous projector screens, hydraulic "motion platform" simulation cockpits, possibly a yacht, et cetera. Doctors, businessmen, real estate managers, traders, airline pilots, heirs, Gabe Newell and so on play computer games, too.

As for your suggestion that the feel-good sentiments he's dropping might just be a show to garner goodwill, yes, that's entirely possible. You can accuse anyone of that, though.
 

almondblight

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As for your suggestion that the feel-good sentiments he's dropping might just be a show to garner goodwill, yes, that's entirely possible. You can accuse anyone of that, though.

I can't think of any other Kickstarter that's worn their "concern" on their sleeves so flagrantly; can you? He gives tearful interviews about how this could be the end of his company, but then claims that he's worried that people will donate to save the company instead of the game. He gives an emotional interview about the problems that would happen if he didn't let people go and that he "will not do that to his employees!", but neglects to mention that going into bankruptcy wouldn't be terribly good for himself either. He says he doesn't want people to donate more than they can easily afford, and then puts up 5k and 10k tiers (yes, there are people that can afford that, but it's an odd thing to do if you claim that you worry people will spend too much). I can't think of any project that had a comparable level of "oh dear, you don't have to give us that much money, it's fine...we'll just starve...*cough* *cough*...but really, I don't want to bother you with saving my life...*cough*..." -type BS that this one has.
 

Metro

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I think the man is just having an emotional breakdown and letting the gaming community watch. This is not the way to 'save' his company. His company is dead. He needs to accept that, move past it, and work on starting over with a smaller size. Right now he's just prolonging the agony and it's foolish. His life isn't over. Will he be able to own/run a company of a hundred plus employees? No. Could he possibly start one that has fifteen to twenty and slowly build over time? Sure. The gaming industry is full of examples of that happening.
 

Tolknaz

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
While their output so far has not really been my cup of tea, i still pledged out of principle. Chris Taylor seems like a genuinely nice guy, which is extremely rare amongst CEO-s in this industry. They're certain to fail anyway, but at least i'll show my support. Always sad to see an independent game studio kick the bucket.
 
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HobGoblin42

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But even Dungeon Siege 3 has about 50 people in its credits and took longer than that. I agree you SHOULD be able to make a good game with that kind of money but in this case it's just a bad idea and they ran too far with bad idea.


The complete list in credits is not so meaningful. You have to reduce that on the core development team. Anybody else, all those publisher's people like producer, marketing, HR, PR guys, sales, CEOs are not relevant to make a good game.

Look at the team of Grimrock, estimated development costs of $300k with 4-5 people.


And a great game doesn't necessarily need cutscenes, voice acting or a big orchestra music theme.
 

DeepOcean

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I think when he was talking about don't wanting people to waste their economies on a videogame, he was talking about his friends and family that were trying to help him and he felt guilt about that.
 

suejak

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This guy is clueless if he thinks his games were comparable to the Wing Commander series and Infinity engine RPGs. Never mind the fact that the latter two also offer a return to genres that have been pretty non-existent the last several years. Surprise, Chris, there is no fanbase for Dungeon Siege, Supreme Commander, and Demigod! He really needs to pull the plug on this Kickstarter and start thinking of a way to start over small (and probably just remain small). It's viable. There are plenty of small studios that survive and are profitable. But these constant articles, interviews, and videos are killing his esteem in the public. People are starting to view him as some pathetic Willy Loman character constantly droning on about his glory days. Enough is enough.
Uh, Total Annihilation?

How old are you...?
 

Stabwound

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Dec 17, 2008
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It seems like this has become "bailout Gas Powered Games" than "let's support a cool game" because I don't think anyone legitimately thinks that this game looks very appealing.
 

random_encounter

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Sad article, but:

Only now does Taylor fully understand what will sell and will not sell on Kickstarter. On Three Moves Ahead this week, he told us, “I felt like GPG, and Wildman, and my leadership would be the right answer. And people would get behind me... That ‘s been true of the six thousand odd people that have pledged. But that’s not the same turnout that we’ve seen in other games that are nostalgic, frankly, that are going to be remakes of old games that people understand. They can practically see the design of the game in their head.”


Focusing on the nostalgia effect behind titles like Star Citizen seems like a copout.

Shadowrun is still a popular tabletop game with a massive fanbase despite the bastardization of some of the fiction by Catalyst. The last Shadowrun video game adaptation that came out was the pew pew, MP-only Shadowrun from FASA under Microsoft Studios which most fans would rather forget. When Weisman came in with Shadowrun Returns, you could almost hear the collective gasp of millions that it could be "the one".

I'd wager that a few others like FTL and Dead State had also succeeded largely because people were excited by the ideas behind them and not by the pedigree of their developers. Uber resumes certainly didn't help Shaker.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'd wager that a few others like FTL and Dead State had also succeeded largely because people were excited by the ideas behind them and not by the pedigree of their developers. Uber resumes certainly didn't help Shaker.

FTL:
KkkUzJ3.png


Dead State:
Ee2CSjr.png


Wildman:
VYtRVJ5.png
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Board game Kickstarters live in their own unique universe.
 

tuluse

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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
$400 per person, holy crap. Did they have prostitutes hand deliver the game to your bedroom?
 

MapMan

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Aug 7, 2009
Messages
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The game looks unappealing. I'm surprised people pledge towards it (the game, not because of the company and CT).
 

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