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Firaxis making next Xcom

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
I watched their panel just for that and was horribly disappointed. I did enjoy the stunned awkward silence after the trailer ended before becoming light polite applause. Trailer was fucking nothing.
 

Eyeball

Arcane
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
Basic gameplay was surprisingly solid. If they can make the next one a lot more sandboxy and add in some elements of surprise (such as aliens actually fucking moving around on their own before you spotting them), I'd buy it.

Sadly, Firaxis does not seem to know how to make turn based strategy games anymore. This is bizarre, considering that it's pretty much ALL they've made.
 
Joined
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Basic gameplay was surprisingly solid.
yeah, like "stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still,, sometimes shoot, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move".
solid as 10 days old shit.
 

Eyeball

Arcane
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Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
Which could be very easily improved on if they allowed monsters to move around a little bit more and use some initiative. Interface, cover mechanics and movement was actually fine.
 
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the wonders of the cover mechanics which let your men be shot while standing behind a 2 meters tall wall. sure, perfectly fine, makes sense.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
I do really hope this will not turn out some sort of lame action spin-off... some kind of addon for the original game, on the other hand, would be somewhat good.


Basic gameplay was surprisingly solid.
yeah, like "stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still,, sometimes shoot, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move".
solid as 10 days old shit.


like, you know, real-world squad tactics?
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Developer
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4,346
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Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Basic gameplay was surprisingly solid.
yeah, like "stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still,, sometimes shoot, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move".
solid as 10 days old shit.
Actually, staying still as much as possible is pretty sound in real life conflict too. It's not like you stand any chance of not being shot down if you are the first to be seen with today's weapons, so that's a pretty accurate simulation of modern infantry combat. :D
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
As a matter of fact, I see three "move" in the above quote. And while is true that aliens didn't maneuver very much, XCOM is mimicking real-world tactics much better than the classic's "meatshields go out of the skyranger and may god help us all". Nostalgia must not make us blind.
 
Joined
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Messages
8,819
Location
Italy
Basic gameplay was surprisingly solid.
yeah, like "stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move, stay still, stay still, stay still,, sometimes shoot, stay still, stay still, stay still, stay still, move".
solid as 10 days old shit.
Actually, staying still as much as possible is pretty sound in real life conflict too. It's not like you stand any chance of not being shot down if you are the first to be seen with today's weapons, so that's a pretty accurate simulation of modern infantry combat. :D
well, see, you're missing a small, little detail.
this is a game. a game is supposed to be fun.
moving a man three steps forward, behind that hand placed obstacle because i was supposed to move there and nowhere else, putting 5 tin soldiers in overwatch and pressing "end turn" while praying i'm not going to be sudden-spawn-raped-bugged is not my ideal of fun.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Using overwatch was a necessary tactic in the original x-com. The Original games larger squad sizes actually allowed you to use more complex tactics and maneuvers. As well as fighting over a larger piece of terrain.

The original game did a better job of mimicking squad tactics than the current one does. Because the modern one doesn't have a squad. It has a large fireteam. Not that either game really mimicked modern squad tactics very well or had that as a goal.

And the whole point of MadMaxHellfire 's comment was that you are able to creep around barely moving as the most effective technique. Because there are no mechanics in place to give you a reason to try and proceed in a timely manner, such as it gives the enemy more time to react to what you are doing. Because almost all the enemies are content to sit still until you stumble upon them.

Come on. Are you saying me you never used disarmed soldiers to draw psionic hellfire? Never scouted with rookies that routinely got fried in open ground? In term of numbers, a real word squad is 8-15 guys, so the new XCOM falls shorts, but in terms of positioning and movement is the old one which is lacking realism.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
You are right. The original game was set up allowed you to use a variety of tactics instead of forcing you to use the same one of leapfrogging guys between cover. That was why it was a better game.

Are we talking of the better game, or of the most realistic one? Because I can assure you that too much creativity can get your poor bastards killed when you ought to storm a position.

The most effective tactic in the original one (aside from abusing avionics) was to move a few units while the rest were in overwatch. Which is as close to real life tactics as the tactics the new XCOMs cover based system forces you to use.

So you think picking a guy to walk in the open baiting enemy fire out of the dark is a fine military tactic? Maybe in penal battalions...
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
The better game is the most important thing of course. But even in terms of realism the new one isn't any better than the original. The new one doesn't mimmick real life tactics very well. It might appear to on the surface because, hey you have to use cover and overwatch an even a weak form of suppression, but real life tactics are a lot more involved than that. Maneuver, for example, is not very much encouraged by the system(actively discouraged even, as was the point of MadMaxHellfire). And maneuvering is the main purpose of real life squad tactics.

Of course. I don't think for a moment that the new XCOM is a military simulation or the new Close Combat. But moving from cover to cover is, in nuce, a staple of squad tactics. Sending waves of soldiers in the open to reveal enemy position is not.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
That's not how I played the original x-com. I suppose that's why we have a different point of view on this issue.

Cover in the original was much more nebulous, there was no suppression, you couldn't really dash... Of course you could play tactically, but those are more boardgame tactics than simulation ones. About maneuvering you're probably right, but this has more to do with the enemy activation system that was introduced to curb difficulty.
 

Dead Guy

Cipher
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
281
So now it's "The Series"? Great. Too bad it's dead certainly gonna be the exact same shitty 2-action system with consolitis, spawning free-move moles and maps designed for some kind of balance. Look, they didn't even bother to make a anything new for the trailer, just throw in the G-man guy. Fuck this restraining shit.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Indeed, I was just finding it fun that people complaining about having everyone on overwatch, when it is the most sensible thing to do most of the time too. Even though leapfroging from cover to cover is a good representation of real life military tactics, having enemies on picnic instead of having them, say, on overwatch is not, so overall, the new game fails there too. It's a shame really, because removing the idotic spawning mechanism and making maps bigger would make the game much better. I suspect most of it comes from the AI not being able to handle that.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Indeed, I was just finding it fun that people complaining about having everyone on overwatch, when it is the most sensible thing to do most of the time too. Even though leapfroging from cover to cover is a good representation of real life military tactics, having enemies on picnic instead of having them, say, on overwatch is not, so overall, the new game fails there too. It's a shame really, because removing the idotic spawning mechanism and making maps bigger would make the game much better. I suspect most of it comes from the AI not being able to handle that.

Exactly. Firaxis isn't really all that hot on AIs... see Civ V... but the underlying system is indeed solid. You could somewhat argue that aliens are surprised (they look surprised in cutscenes, always busy doing their sorry work), but it'is a weak explanation, I know.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Cover in real life is more nebulous. The cover in the original X-com was fine. What do you mean you couldn't dash? What would you consider using all your time units for movement then?

The original system also allowed you to do very effective recon by fire. I'd shoot up plenty of buildings I knew or suspected an alien was in instead of just walking some guy over there to reveal them.

AFAIK, there wasn't any difference in enemy reaction shots if you used all your times units. The new XCOM applies penalties to enemy accuracy if you dash. About cover, I would think a trained soldier, knowing enemy position, has an intuitive understanding of being in cover. In the original it was much more difficult to see this.


I think everyone agrees that the enemy activation/spawning system is not good then.


Absolutely.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I seriously would just like to see them try the system they have now, except make the maximum size of a "spawn" get to be like 10 aliens. That should be doable in a patch, not a sequel. That way the thing that ruins the mid-lategame, which is the fact you can always gun down an entire 3-man spawn of enemies before they can do anything (and even if you can only kill 2 it will trigger the "retreat" AI in the last one) means defense becomes totally meaningless in all but a tiny % of situations even on impossible and way overincentivizes boring overwatch-crawling the map and knowing spawn points. They would have to redo balance and change some abilities (e.g. the aliens can not have visual-range grenades if they can throw six of them a turn) but it would just make a huge and easy difference if their encounter system still occasionally generated multiturn fights after the second game-month.

They can save iterating on shit like the poor/fake strategic flexibility for a sequel.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
I seriously would just like to see them try the system they have now, except make the maximum size of a "spawn" get to be like 10 aliens. That should be doable in a patch, not a sequel. That way the thing that ruins the mid-lategame, which is the fact you can always gun down an entire 3-man spawn of enemies before they can do anything (and even if you can only kill 2 it will trigger the "retreat" AI in the last one) means defense becomes totally meaningless in all but a tiny % of situations even on impossible and way overincentivizes boring overwatch-crawling the map and knowing spawn points. They would have to redo balance and change some abilities (e.g. the aliens can not have visual-range grenades if they can throw six of them a turn) but it would just make a huge and easy difference if their encounter system still occasionally generated multiturn fights after the second game-month.

Problem is casualties would seriously ramp up, and with the present skill tree system this is not really viable. I don't think XCOM can be "fixed". I find it fun for what it is, regardless of the illustrious ancestors.
 

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