The Worlds of Magic Thread - It's out... sorta

[Wastelander]

Hello there! We've been talking about Worlds of Magic in this thread, but from now on I will carry on with the updates here. So, what's WoM?

Work on the project started nearly a year ago in a 2D development environment. As it evolved it was moved to a 3D environment and the basic game mechanics have started to take firm shape.

I think it's not necessary to explain here what is MoM, but attending what our fellow wiki has to say:

"Master of Magic is a single-player, fantasy turn-based strategy 4X genre[2] video game created by Simtex and published for DOS by MicroProse in 1994. The player is a wizard attempting to dominate two linked worlds. From a small settlement, the player manages resources, builds cities and armies, and researches spells, growing an empire and fighting the other wizards."

​

So, what are we trying to achieve with Worlds of Magic? Something with this list of features:

1. Master of Magic Spiritual Successor
2. D20 System - Units, Spells and Heroes will all draw from the D20 rule set during the battles.
3. 4X deep playability
4. Hero Units - Recruit heroes to lead your forces into battle
5. Twelve Spell Circles
6. Unique Races
7. Multiple victory conditions
8. A million more things

(large version http://screen.bitterglory.com/in/13-02/tvjvjgfyr.png)​

We're working to develop a rather new and in-depth magic system for Worlds of Magic. The world itself will span a number of planes and a majority of the content will be created procedurally. No two games have to be exactly the same (although they can be if you want them that way). We're adding new features every day, and we would truly appreciate any suggestions. What did you like most about Master of Magic? What do you feel is a must for Worlds of Magic? What would you like us to add? Is there anything else we should consider?

Every contribution will be MUCH appreciated. It will be my pleasure to answer any question here, and you can find more info in the following links. Thank you!

Official Facebook Worlds of Magic fansite
Game forum

 

[Wastelander]

1.- Custom races

"What about a custom faction? You start with a blank slate and a number of points. You spend those points to give the race some benefits. Maybe you take some negative effects to get more points and spend those points on something you really want. The results can be truly awesome. You can put together different races for different play styles. It provides another level of replayability (in a game that already has an almost insane number of possible permutations). Given time you will probably find the one race combination you love above all others."

Of course this model also brings questions. What sprites are we supposed to use in a custom race? Hoy to keep balance? Among others.

More info:

http://forum.wastelands-interactive...etamorphosis-(Custom-Races)&p=51031#post51031

2.- AI

"We plan to go beyond the basic “Make the AI play like we would” and attempt to quantify certain strategic concepts like “Expansionist”. The idea is to boil down certain elements of strategy and use them like legos to build a completely new and unique AI that has a solid play style pieced together out of a number of viable play strategies. Now, that is going to be the real trick. It's relatively easy to hand craft a sorcerer with a certain set of skills to play a certain way. It's another thing entirely to be given a set of skills and strategic “methods” and try to dynamically make something that can actually offer a challenge. However, it's something we're aiming for.

We want the AI in WoM to feel like artificial intelligence not artificial intelligence. It's going to take a lot of work to make it happen, but it's work we're going to love. As with all things WoM related, play testing is going to be a big element. In fact, it's going to matter more with the AI than with any other single element."

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8861-Artificial-Intelligence

3.- Elven units

What do you think about these units?

Settlers
Engineers
Archers
Swordsmen
Druids
Dire Bears
Rangers
Sorcerers
Arcane Archers
Ballista
Wolf Riders
Giant Eagles

Feel free to add suggestions, it's not written in stone.

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8864-Elven-Units&p=51044#post51044

Aaaaand that's all for now! Well, appart from this environmental wallpaper :D. Thank you, see ya!

large version: http://screen.bitterglory.com/in/13-02/kwfxlvblx.png

 

[Yeesh]

I'm very enthusiastic and supportive (albeit solely in intangible ways) of this project. While I'm probably no good for ideas, I will share that my absolute, number one least favorite thing about MoM and most of the follow ups (Warlock comes to mind, and maybe FE too). The shortcoming most ruinous to my enjoyment of MoM and her progeny is the way that towards the endgame, the environment still contains some mighty and fun-looking monsters and/or areas to explore with your powerful heroes and armies. BUT by the time you've got the elite troops and heroes to tackle that fun stuff, you're at a point where you could have stomped all over the remaining AIs and won the game 40 turns ago.

In MoM, I loved powering up to finally be able to tackle that node guarded by three sky drakes. But obviously, by the time I'd gotten there the game was effectively long over and nothing the AIs did could provide anywhere near the same challenge. In Warlock, exploring the various alternate worlds was pointless, except maybe to cheese some goodies with a fast flying unit on a semi-suicide mission. By the time you have the strength clear out some footholds (or the entire map) to gain access to all those nifty other-world resources, you just don't need them. You easily could have made the AIs your bitch with the force necessary for fighting all those high-end monsters.

I just hate it. It feels so anti-climactic. I know this could be subsumed under the heading of improved AI which you're already planning. But unlike many folks here, I care more about maintaining the AI challenge than I do about forcing the AI to play by the same rules as the player. I'd rather the AI cheat and still be a threat when my forces are strong enough to take on the fun environmental stuff. I want the awesome treasure from those hardest monster fights to be something I need BEFORE I'm in a position to lay waste to all the enemy empires.

Or the environment could just be weaker, but that's sort of boring.

I LOVE SINGLE PLAYER BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEO GAMES BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE. But dang it, SP is hard I know. The number one problem with 4X games in general is that the challenge fades as the game goes on. In a game where your heroes and magic (in ADDITION to your empire and armies) get stronger turn after turn, this effect tends to be even more pronounced. If you figure out how to avoid THAT, cheating AIs or not, I think the game will be way, way better for it.

 

[asongforsimeon]

If elves ride wolves what goblins do ride? Spiders? Sorry if this sounds silly, but i'm a fan of weird fantasy cavalries.

 

[kris]

I'm very enthusiastic and supportive (albeit solely in intangible ways) of this project. While I'm probably no good for ideas, I will share that my absolute, number one least favorite thing about MoM and most of the follow ups (Warlock comes to mind, and maybe FE too). The shortcoming most ruinous to my enjoyment of MoM and her progeny is the way that towards the endgame, the environment still contains some mighty and fun-looking monsters and/or areas to explore with your powerful heroes and armies. BUT by the time you've got the elite troops and heroes to tackle that fun stuff, you're at a point where you could have stomped all over the remaining AIs and won the game 40 turns ago.

In MoM, I loved powering up to finally be able to tackle that node guarded by three sky drakes. But obviously, by the time I'd gotten there the game was effectively long over and nothing the AIs did could provide anywhere near the same challenge. In Warlock, exploring the various alternate worlds was pointless, except maybe to cheese some goodies with a fast flying unit on a semi-suicide mission. By the time you have the strength clear out some footholds (or the entire map) to gain access to all those nifty other-world resources, you just don't need them. You easily could have made the AIs your bitch with the force necessary for fighting all those high-end monsters.

I just hate it. It feels so anti-climactic. I know this could be subsumed under the heading of improved AI which you're already planning. But unlike many folks here, I care more about maintaining the AI challenge than I do about forcing the AI to play by the same rules as the player. I'd rather the AI cheat and still be a threat when my forces are strong enough to take on the fun environmental stuff. I want the awesome treasure from those hardest monster fights to be something I need BEFORE I'm in a position to lay waste to all the enemy empires.

Or the environment could just be weaker, but that's sort of boring.

I LOVE SINGLE PLAYER BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEO GAMES BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE. But dang it, SP is hard I know. The number one problem with 4X games in general is that the challenge fades as the game goes on. In a game where your heroes and magic (in ADDITION to your empire and armies) get stronger turn after turn, this effect tends to be even more pronounced. If you figure out how to avoid THAT, cheating AIs or not, I think the game will be way, way better for it.

This is hard to solve since it is pretty common among all 4X games. Unless some enemy empire can become really powerful in some way.

A solution in a game like this could be to have a "demon invasion", basically that something more powerful than what was met before comes up to provide a extra late game challenge. Kind of like the games "mongols".

Or that all remaining empire band together against you when you reached a certain threshold of power.

Personally I agree with you, but don't care as much. That is because for me the exploring phase is kind of the most exciting, followed by the expansion. I always lose interest in all 4x games at some point and my completion rate is almost non-existant.

 

[Misconnected]

Just a stray thought or three:

Each faction is a hard counter to one other faction. Factions can pursue a match-length tech strategy that "counters their counter", so to speak, but in doing so the faction itself stops being a hard counter.

It might be unworkable, indeed, it probably isn't workable if neighbours are randomly assigned. But it might make for some interesting diplomacy, and the odd game where a factions ends up playing very differently from usual.

I have zero problem with an AI that cheats, but try not to be obvious about it. And please, please try to make sure the AI knows how to play by the rules it has to play by. See recent long-ass rant of mine about the state of the AI in Endless Space in this forum, for an example of what not to do.

I very much agree it'd be more fun if defeating epic guardians for the phat lewd & massive resource piles, was actually worthwhile. But... I'm not sure how you might pull that off. Perhaps if factions start off with a fair bit of space between them, and undefeated Points of Interest periodically sends out armies strong enough to disrupt, but not kill them... PoI's could maybe work as a sort of logistics terror that makes it much harder to really go to war without first capturing the PoI's. I dunno... Fallen Enchantress sort of does it, but it doesn't really work out as outlined in that game. FE PoI's tend to either be Flaming Fucking Doom or Bleh Doesn't Matter. Also, FE PoI spawns have a really annoying It's A Human! KIIIIILLL!!! rule you definitely shouldn't copy.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

1.- Custom races

"What about a custom faction? You start with a blank slate and a number of points. You spend those points to give the race some benefits. Maybe you take some negative effects to get more points and spend those points on something you really want. The results can be truly awesome. You can put together different races for different play styles. It provides another level of replayability (in a game that already has an almost insane number of possible permutations). Given time you will probably find the one race combination you love above all others."

Of course this model also brings questions. What sprites are we supposed to use in a custom race? Hoy to keep balance? Among others.

I never liked custom races in these games.

There tends to be one or a few optimal combinations of traits, though they can take a while for players to discover
They always push the default races off to the side, even if the custom races have a penalty such as less points to spend
The AI can never handle them, which means custom race players have to crank up the difficulty, which makes designing a custom race boil down to "how well can it handle the higher difficulty AI cheats"

IMO development time is best spent on making the default races as unique and balances as possible instead of implementing a custom race feature.

 

[Wastelander]

Hi there, ladies and gentlemen!

If elves ride wolves what goblins do ride? Spiders? Sorry if this sounds silly, but i'm a fan of weird fantasy cavalries.

Good question! I will ask the main designer, or you can do so directly using one of the links at the bottom of the post.

I'm very enthusiastic and supportive (albeit solely in intangible ways) of this project. While I'm probably no good for ideas, I will share that my absolute, number one least favorite thing about MoM and most of the follow ups (Warlock comes to mind, and maybe FE too). The shortcoming most ruinous to my enjoyment of MoM and her progeny is the way that towards the endgame, the environment still contains some mighty and fun-looking monsters and/or areas to explore with your powerful heroes and armies. BUT by the time you've got the elite troops and heroes to tackle that fun stuff, you're at a point where you could have stomped all over the remaining AIs and won the game 40 turns ago. [...]

Thank you for your kind words and support, Yeesh. We are working hard to get this done, and the good thing is that we have a lot of mechanics that allow us to keep the challenge, as portals and planes. It's important for us too as players, and we are aware of it and of the comments that Kris add.

Just a stray thought or three: [...]

Thank you! Everything written down and sent to the devs : ).

I never liked custom races in these games.

There tends to be one or a few optimal combinations of traits, though they can take a while for players to discover
They always push the default races off to the side, even if the custom races have a penalty such as less points to spend
The AI can never handle them, which means custom race players have to crank up the difficulty, which makes designing a custom race boil down to "how well can it handle the higher difficulty AI cheats"

IMO development time is best spent on making the default races as unique and balances as possible instead of implementing a custom race feature.

We have gathered pretty positive feedback for custom races, and it's a feature that will probably be in the game, but of course the balance between the existing races will be the most important aspect. Fortunately, a closed beta will help us with that matter, and the D20 system makes things easier too.

Well, here we go again with a little but a very important update at the same time.

1.- The dwarven race

First, the unit list. We are thinking about what to do with boars and wizards, and also there's the possibility to add axe-throwers and dwarvish weapons. Thoughts?

Settlers
Engineers
Axe-Dwarves
Crossbow-Dwarves
Berzerkers
Wizards
Clerics
Axe Lords
Boar Riders
Catapults
Dwarven Defenders

2.- Economy

Some users have been asking about the base of economics in the game, as we have wrongly assumed that everyone should know how it worked on Master of Magic. In case you want more details, here you can find a great explanation. In Aaron words:

Very obviously, this post is going to address how the economy works in Worlds of Magic. Not surprisingly it's going to work much like it did in MoM and other 4X strategy games. However, there are some differences I'd like to highlight.

I'll start with a basic explanation for those who might not be as familiar with 4X games as the rest of us. First, there are a number of resources used both by your Sorcerer and his subjects. In most cases these are: Food, Gold and Mana. (Undead use Negative Energy, but I'll get to that in the differences section of this post.) Now, these resources are all produced by your population. (Or found as treasures on the world map. Or gained by a fortunate random event. Still, they're mainly produced by your population.)

When you build a city it “claims” a certain amount of territory that the citizens will then be able to “work” (this ties into “city influence” which we touched on in a previous post.) The population of the city can be assigned work in a number of areas: Farming, Production, Research (And possibly “Specialist”, but that's a topic for another post.) The area the city has claimed gives you bonuses to some or all of these tasks depending on what type of terrain and features it is filled with. The structures you build within a city can also effect these bonuses. As a result you can build cities that focus on food or military production or focus on magical research.

So far this is all very MoMish. (I know you couldn't assign “researchers” in MoM, but you could in MoO2!) However, unlike in MoM you will be able to store food, just as you can gold or mana. It will be limited by the number of structures that can preserve food throughout your empire. So, the more granaries you have the more food storage you'll have. Why is this an improvement? Because if you go through a short spell of famine you won't have an unit that “deserted due to lack of food.” That is, of course, until your storehouses are empty.

Another difference is the undead and negative energy. They produce and consume it like food. However, we're not sure we're going to allow it to be stored yet. The debate is still up in the air. It could be rationalized that negative energy could be crystallized and stored, just like mana. However, it might be more flavorful if it couldn't be stored. It could be one of the undead's limitations. Also, no terrain is “naturally” suited to the production of negative energy. It has to be corrupted before it can be used. (Obviously, all terrain on the shadow plane is corrupted at the start of the game.) Nor is any terrain type more suited to the production of negative energy. So, no place on the world map is either great or terrible for an undead city (as long as it's surrounded by land and not the sea.) All places are equally suited to the production of dark energy once the land is corrupted.

Undead also have no need of gold, although a sorcerer using undead will need it. Very few heroes work for the “good cause.” They want to be paid. This means using the undead is going to require you to get gold from other sources. You'll just capture another race's city and make them pay taxes you say! Well, good luck with that! The other races hate the undead and would generally rather die than serve them. Now, there will be ways for a sorcerer using undead to get gold, he just needs to plan ahead.

ttp://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8875-The-Global-Economy&p=51109#post51109

And that's all. I also want to say that from now on I maybe won't be able to do weekly updates as I have been doing. Soon we will announce really big news, and the team is going to be busier than ever (myself included). Of course I will try to take a look from time to time, but you are invited to take part in our forums. Don't forget to stay tuned . Thanks a million, guys.

Official Facebook Worlds of Magic fansite
Game forum

 

[dehimos]

no black powder for dwarves?

 

[doomtrader]

I'm afraid that black powder might be too much steampunkish.

However I personally found dwarvish rifles as one of the coolest units.

 

[Trash]

Just chiming in to say that, later this week, we'll be posting an interview on Tacticular Cancer with the fellows from Wastelands Interactive. Here's a little teaser I think you'll like.

Strategy and wargaming are rather niche genres, and yet there are quite a few studios active in it. Would you say there still is a sizeable audience for these kinds of games? How do you think the future for the genre is looking?

(Leszek) Do you remember golden times of strategy games in mid 90’s? A lot of great titles were created then like Panzer General, Master of Orion, of course Master of Magic and many, many more. Of course now, there are couple of shining stars like Civilization series, X-Com or Sim City but you are right, most of the games are pretty niche if you compare them to the sales level of Call of Duty or Battlefront. However I think there is a plenty of room for such games. If I remember correctly it has been lately announced that Endless Space has been sold in over 500 thousands units. Pretty good score like for niche game. I’m pretty sure there is a lot of space for fantasy strategy games. Only for this year two great continuations are announced - Age of Wonders III and the new Eador. I’m sure that Worlds of Magic will have a lot to offer not only for strategy games fans. If only the press could stop calling every game where you have to think a hardcore title.

 

[asongforsimeon]

Dwarf Wizard seems really strange on the surface. Isn't some sort of runemage more fitting? But all in all, this looks good. Fallen Enchantress didn't really filled my appetite for fantasy 4X, so keep up the good work, I say.

 

[kris]

Dwarf Wizard seems really strange on the surface. Isn't some sort of runemage more fitting? But all in all, this looks good. Fallen Enchantress didn't really filled my appetite for fantasy 4X, so keep up the good work, I say.

Why should everyone do the same?

could as well have a magical dwarven society and a mining Elven society. (even if the originals suit their build)

 

[asongforsimeon]

Dwarf Wizard seems really strange on the surface. Isn't some sort of runemage more fitting? But all in all, this looks good. Fallen Enchantress didn't really filled my appetite for fantasy 4X, so keep up the good work, I say.

Why should everyone do the same?

could as well have a magical dwarven society and a mining Elven society. (even if the originals suit their build)

there are boar riders and axe lords, so I assumed stereotypical dwarves.

 

[Trash]

The interview is up. Was fun to have a dev who answered as expansive and frank as Lisowksi and Etheridge.

http://www.tacticularcancer.com/index.php#4028

 

[Malakal]

I liked how Warhammer did dwarves with extremely heavy reliance on cannons and stuff like that. So Im thinking: flame throwers. Not the modern kind, think greek fire. So something like greek fire throwers, greek fire slingers, greek fire catapults and heavy armored greek fire flame thrower wizard as an elite unit.

Add to that the classic dwarven stuff like axemen, hammerers, berserkers, crossbowmen and riflemen and you are set for a semi classic race with some fire-y twist.

 

[Wastelander]

Hi everybody, how are you doing?

Let's go with the weekly/fortnightly/somewhat-ly updates :D.

1.- First point of the agenda was Tacticular Cancer interview, but I have nothing to add as Trash has shared it himself. Thank you!

2.- We have a brand new and exciting official website for Worlds of Magic. It's still on development, but I'm happy to introduce the new Womsite:

http://myworldsofmagic.com/

(clapclapclapclap and so on)

3.- As you can see, WoMsite is in English, Spanish and Polish at the moment. We would be happy to feature more languages, so if you want to give us a hand and translate it to another language (it won't be more than 600 words) please tell us :D.

About the threads, we have had little time to spent writing (writing post at least, lol). So, now the time is short and big things are coming, we are asking you to revise much of the information we have released this time ago, as we want to prepare a very good FAQ based en your questions:

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8891-More-Questions&p=51267#post51267

I warn you, if your question is going to be "when are you going to release actual gameplay screenshots" save it. VERY, VERY SOON :D, promise. See ya!

 

[Wastelander]

Well guys, this is it!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/304725524/worlds-of-magic-a-new-classic-4x-fantasy-game

Kickstarter is ready :D.

 

[Azira]

Pledged.

 

[doomtrader]

Azira, Three cheers for you!

It would be even greater if you could spread the word here and there. This is what we are counting for, the most. Friendly people talking about our game, joining our communities and addicting new members.

 

[Azira]

I guess I could tell my old friends about this, problem is, the people I'd suspect might want this game are also terribly cheap even though they can afford this.

Still, it'd be a waste not to try.

 

[tabacila]

Pledged. Will try to get some of my strategy oriented friends interested in it.
Some campaign map screens would be nice.

 

[Wastelander]

Pledged. Will try to get some of my strategy oriented friends interested in it.
Some campaign map screens would be nice.

Thanks a million, to you and all the other backers . We are working hard to get those campaign map ASAP .

 

[Wastelander]

Hello again, people!

How is it going? Today we have released some of our progresses on the World Map, a subject which a lot of people have mentioned on those days. That's the thing:

Yep, we have to keep working on water, but this is progressing a lot! BTW, you can see all the other official updates here:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/304725524/worlds-of-magic-a-new-classic-4x-fantasy-game/posts

Well, what do you think? See ya!

 

[Misconnected]

Looks pretty great. The seams are kind of wonky, but the individual tile graphics look nice and crisp.