What kind of options does everyone want in a new Roguelike?

[Biffsnot]

Hello all. I have a roguelike game in the works and would like to get some answers on features or ideas anyone might want to see. There is a ton of great roguelikes out there like Nethack and many great coders spent many hours putting in awsome features and goodies. So I dont want to just make 'another' roguelike that will be lost in the shuffle of the well known greats lol.

I have some ideas that may make for a good experiance as well as some options planned that will make the game more vocal in telling you when something bad is hapening to your character so you dont miss that message saying the amulet is strangling you and die by mistake.

There will be many interesting things to do, mix together, eat, and of course - die from.

The world it is in will be different than the normal nethack style game populated with d&d creatures, so the ins and outs will be different enough to be fun to even those that played Nethack on computers that ran on steam power However I plan on using many of the Nethack keys and commands so those who have played forever will fall right in, and those new will be ready for Nethack, Slash'Em and all the others if they decide to play them instead

The game is likly to be written in Java and use the gui interface and 2d tiles. Java because it looks and acts the exact same on all platforms (I have a pc with winxp and openSuSE Linux, and a mac in the same room and have tested this well). There will be an ascii mode as well but may be still in the gui window making it need a windowing server to run and no text-only mode.

The tiles will be hand made or the tiles in the RLTiles distribution -

So....here is the big question. Would anyone play this? Java+tiles+needing a windowing system too play, is this something you all would enjoy? Please comment and tell me what you want. This is no idle plan and as soon as I get some answers and decide a few odds and ends I will be opening a SourceForge site. Thanks!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, Biff, basically what you just said is "Hey, I'm making a Java rogue-like game with options and stuff. Would you like to play such a game?!". You need to be a bit more specific here.

 

[Biffsnot]

Well, Biff, basically what you just said is "Hey, I'm making a Java rogue-like game with options and stuff. Would you like to play such a game?!". You need to be a bit more specific here.

Absolutly correct I have not made many of the specifics yet because I am basically asking, is this worth it. It will be in Java and have sound/tiles. This may upset ppl who like pure ASCII. I can code in C++ and make it console text mode ascii only and as a matter of fact that may make my job easier lol. You see where I am going here? Id like to know if people want another rogulike, and what they would like to see in one. Do ppl want tiles? Isometric? Sound? ASCII only? A combo of many? OR would everyone basically rather load up Nethhack.

Please tell me what you guys want to see. Thats basicaly what I am asking.

 

[Whipporowill]

Well, more tilebased roguelikes... I haven't been able to get into ascii games for years sadly, so I'm all for some visual representation with the same amount of gameplay as an ascii rougelike if that's what you're asking!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, Biff, basically what you just said is "Hey, I'm making a Java rogue-like game with options and stuff. Would you like to play such a game?!". You need to be a bit more specific here.

Absolutly correct I have not made many of the specifics yet because I am basically asking, is this worth it.

Ok, let's try that again. It's like asking, should I make another RPG or are you guys happy with the existing ones. The answer depends on what you have to offer.

This may upset ppl who like pure ASCII.

Advice: make a game that you want to make & play, not a game that upset the least amount of people. If you prefer a roguelike with some graphics, go for it.

Id like to know if people want another rogulike, and what they would like to see in one.

Depends on what you have to offer. Since you are making a roguelike (or considering making one) I assume you know most roguelikes and have some ideas that haven't been done/developed before. So what is it?

 

[Lord Chambers]

Looks like Castle of the Winds. I remember playing that game years ago with a friend. That friend later went on to blow his savings on Rage cards, a Magic: The Gathering collectable card game that no one in 40 miles played. What a douchebag.

 

[Slylandro]

About ascii v.s. pics, you could distribute two different binaries like Gearhead or Nethack does.

I'm not one of the people who like isometric-- not for roguelikes anyway. But that's just my opinion. Sound has never been a big deal in roguelikes. I recommend if you add this in, do it last. It would be a nice touch but I guess it depends on the quality.

OR would everyone basically rather load up Nethhack.

Isn't your game supposed to be different?

 

[Nedrah]

I've been trying to get into roguelikes forever now.
Sadly the @ and D and V and everything doesn't do it for me, too. So, some graphics and a UI that doesn't require me to press seven keys to draw my sword and/or would allow for some decent playability using my mouse would be very appreciated... Oh, and some kind of storytelling apart from "get the item of whatever and ascend" would definitely help, too. I realize that's propably rather hard given the random nature of these games.

 

[Slylandro]

My dream roguelike game is a large sandbox game with high interactivity, a la ADOM but with a stronger story that has more of an emphasis on exploration than just killing things.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

My dream roguelike game is a large sandbox game with high interactivity, a la ADOM but with a stronger story that has more of an emphasis on exploration than just killing things.

Mm. Try the Unreal World.

 

[spacemoose]

My dream roguelike game is a large sandbox game with high interactivity, a la ADOM but with a stronger story that has more of an emphasis on exploration than just killing things.

Someone else already said what I want to say, and did it better so go here and read, I bet you'll like it. I'm surprised that I've not heard about this game on the codex yet.

 

[Nedrah]

oh,
also, please don't use the tiles shown in the screenshot above. Seriously, those just look too cute.

 

[Elwro]

Tiles or point of view are not essential things for the quality of a roguelike. I'd like to hear about the idea you have for the game. How will it be different from other fantasy roguelikes. What will the unique features be. That's what counts, not gfx. Hell, even the field of vision algorithm is more important.
In general: roguelikes rule, and I'll stick with ASCII.

 

[Vault Dweller]

My dream roguelike game is a large sandbox game with high interactivity, a la ADOM but with a stronger story that has more of an emphasis on exploration than just killing things.

Someone else already said what I want to say, and did it better so go here and read, I bet you'll like it. I'm surprised that I've not heard about this game on the codex yet.

Wow. Awesome. Downloading now. Here is a taste for those who are too lazy to click on links:

You start off creating a world. Since every world's features, civilizations, legends and so on are randomly generated, no one is playing the same world.
...
Dwarf Fortress mode starts you out in the preparation screen. You can either select to Play Now!, which gives you a reasonable set of skills and equipment at a random starting spot, or prepare for the journey, which allows you to pick out all of this yourself with a pool of 200 points.

First you work out your dwarves. You won't need every skill at first, but you want people who can mine, chop wood and make wooden things, cut stone to make stone things, farm fields, fish, possibly hunt (but if you do take someone who can hunt, make sure to give him a weapon skill, ideally Marksdwarf.) However, any dwarf can learn anything if he's assigned the job, and their skills will increase as they use them, so don't feel the need to buy every skill in the list.

Next you'll need supplies. I myself have never been quite clear on what kinds of supplies are best; I usually increase my food supply by a bit and add in the other two types of seeds to ensure I can plant anything I might want later on, rather than having to rely on finding the seeds. You may also want to add in another pick, axe; or possibly weaponry, depending on how dangerous your starting area is. (Picks are the tool for mining, axes are the tool for wood chopping.)

Finally, you select your area. This costs no points, so pick a reasonably temperate area with good forestation, vegetation, and not too many things trying to kill you. You can pick a more dangerous area for greater challenge, but you run the risk of getting killed or not having enough resources, or countless other problems.
...
Next hit d. This will bring up your Designations list, for things like telling your dwarves what parts of the mountain to hollow out. Your cursor should be a yellow block; move it over to the mountain and pick a spot connecting with the outside, and designate an entrance to your soon-to-be fortress of evil. While you're at it, designate some trees for your carpenter to chop down in the same way, but don't designate too many; you want him to also have some free time to make stuff from those trees.

Now, exit out of that. Now hit p. This will bring up your stockpile designation list, which tells your dwarves where to put all the various trash that they find. Since it's only a designation, no one has to build these; they just pop into existence. Put down a Food, Wood, Stone, and Refuse designation at the bare minimum. Your stone designation should be a good size, as well, since you'll be pulling out a LOT of rock from your mining efforts.

Now, exit out of that and unpause. Your dwarves should get to work, moving stuff around, digging, and chopping trees. Watch them work uncomplainingly at back-breaking labor for no pay. Possibly giggle evilly. Once you've got some rocks, though, pause again and hit b. This will be one of your most visited windows; this is where you place things.
...
The first is a Craftsdwarf's Workshop. Here is where you will build all kinds of useful and neat things, primarily trade goods. These will go in a Finished Goods pile. They're important because anything you didn't start with the ability to produce, and a lot of things you did, you'll want to get from the rest of the world (for which you'll need a trade depot, and also a road for trading with non-dwarven traders.) In fact, if you're clever and have been reading the text in the game, you'll have noted that a supply caravan is supposed to arrive in the fall; but their goods aren't free, so you'd better have some stuff to trade back to them if you want their supplies.
...
Your dwarves live in an egalitarian, communist society at first; everyone has a few personal possessions, but everything is shared between people and whatever is needed is a tool "for the people." However, as your fortress expands, nobles will move in; they demand a lot, but in return, they expand your prestige and social dynamic. For example, the Manager allows you to dictate orders of things you need built, rather than queuing things at each workshop; with him comes the Sheriff, and criminal justice. Supposedly, later on once you start making money, you can even have an internal economy.
...
Those military skills aren't just for deer. Monsters will sometimes show up in your fortress, both from outside and from inside. You'll need military dwarves to defend you from frogmen using your dwarves as farm creatures and raiding you from your cave river, and also to keep jealous goblin, human, or elven kingdoms from outside from entering your base and killing your mans. This is especially true if you live near Evil regions...

Fuck, if the game is half as good as the promise...

 

[Walkin' Dude]

Adventure Mode is ok, but fort mode is retarded.

I'm sure it's good and stuff, but the interface and the art is too terrible to use. I can't be fucking bothered to play some videogame with obsfrucated commands. If I can't glean everything I need to play a 100% completion in a video game with only one or two trial and error play throughs, without reading the manual or looking online for faqs, I'm not going to bother playing the game.

No game should be so complicated or challenging that it requires a manual or the help of other people to beat.

People like this are the reason games like Oblivion hold our hands and tell us exactly what to do, every step of the way. Excuse me as I wipe a tear from my cheek . . . there is something in my eye. Really.

edited because I can't spell tonight

 

[onerobot]

The maps are particularly awesome, especially considering that they're randomly generated. Britannia-esqe, even.

So how do I play?

Playing is as easy as creating nuclear fusion using only the power of your mind

After going through the faq the level of detail in this game seems beyond insane, and looks like painful, painful torture to get into. Fucking awesome.

 

[Halenthal]

Graphics=not necessary in a roguelike. A separate download that adds tiles, OK, not a problem-TKZangband, I think it was, had a ton of tilesets that really enhanced the game. But they're not necessary at all.

Yeah, I'm oldschool. And I figure if you're making a roguelike, you're not doing it for the idiotic masses, you're looking for the small and select playerbase that still fires up ascii games in today's high-res world.

The best advice I could give you has already been given-make the game YOU would like to play, with the options YOU would like to see. I guarantee you there's people out there that would enjoy it the same as you.


As for that dwarf game-DAMN, why haven't I heard of that? I was 100% hooked after reading just this much:

"So how do I play?

Playing is as easy as creating nuclear fusion using only the power of your mind"

Yeah, I'm into it. I think I'm taking tomorrow off from work for a little time with some dwarves.


Added in edit: Hrm, one downer, hopefully it's not too painful: the Dwarf Fortress part of it (maybe more, haven't checked) is in realtime. Still gonna play the hell out of it.

 

[Slylandro]

@ Naked Lunch

Yep, I've played Unreal World a bit but haven't been convinced enough to go out and register.

I've never heard of dwarven fortress, ever. Looks pretty interesting though, I just downloaded it, thanks spacemoose. Sounds like a hardcore The Sims in roguelike form or something.

 

[Jim Kata]

It's funny you mention this, because I would really like a roguelike that has SOME graphics and is not all key-driven. Ideally you could get anything done using a menu, but have mnemonics for all the roguelike keys.

Also, having some bit of plot that is randomly generated would be good, too.

 

[Binary]

There is an old roguelike that used to be commercial and then turned freeware. The story was pretty good (Viking mythology).

The game used to be called Valhalla and then was renamed to Ragnarok

http://www.underdogs.kirit.com/game.php?gameid=1399

"Ragnarok (or Valhalla as some might know it) is a Rogue- like game with an early Ultima logic (for the uninitiated, Rogue is an ASCII-based open-ended dungeon crawl that was very popular since the early 1980s). You are a simple mortal, whose quest is to aid the old Norse gods in their battle against the evil gods (Ragnarok in Norse mythology is the final battle that would decide the fate of worlds). You start in a Viking village, and can choose to be a Viking warrior, blacksmith, woodsmith, rogue, sage, or a conjurer.

The game's strength is the virtually limitless replayability. All the items you are able to pick up, mix and use are almost unlimited. But the designer didn't stop there. The best feature in Ragnarok is that every time you start a new game, the map is different (the newer game Diablo by Blizzard Entertainment is also built up like this). Gameplay mechanics is simple, and the graphics is very primitive, but there are so many different ways to play that you will never get tired of it. You can have various powers and a wide variety of equipment. Overall, Ragnarok is truely one of the best, yet relatively unknown RPGs ever made. Best of all, the developers recently released the latest version as freeware.. "

 

[Slylandro]

It's funny you mention this, because I would really like a roguelike that has SOME graphics and is not all key-driven. Ideally you could get anything done using a menu, but have mnemonics for all the roguelike keys.

I've always thought the same-- that if more roguelikes had a standard main menu (a la consoles) that beginners could use until they learned all the hotkeys that the genre would be more popular. I'd envision the "Enter" key being the hotkey for the standard menu, maybe looking something like this:

Save and Quit
Options
Inventory
Spells
Abilities
etc

Going through Options could open up another submenu with choices like for changing the game to explore mode or turning autopickup on/off, etc. Next to these choices could be a key bolded and in color to emphasize the action is hotkeyed, like

...
Turn auto pickup on/off [@]
...

In the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter though, most casual players would probably be turned away by the primitive graphics.

 

[Biffsnot]

Ok, well thank you all for responding! Even Vault Dweller who has shown me once again that sarcasm can answer even the simplest of questions!

And a big thanks to those 2 game posts and links, both thos games look like they may take a chunk of my time lol

Ok now to get some stuff out of the air:

1-No, I am not making a game that will annoy the least amount of ppl. I am trying to create a game ppl would like to play. And no, this doesnt mean everyone, nor will everyone like it, but thats life.

2-Yes, I am making this game to apeal to a limited group of ppl. I could also make a game where you save whales and clean inner city parks for children. That would be a limited group of players as well. But the point of me asking is HOW limited interest in another Roguelike is. I know it may sound lame BUT imagine if other ppl, maybe even profesional game developers, asked 'Does anyone want another...' before making some of the slop dished out in the Walmart game section. I will tell you now the crap that passes for commercial games would be better. I really dont want to start a project that ends up like so many home made games - another 3-year old link to an unfinished game due to no one giving a crap about it

So please all, dont judge my simple desire for input as some sort of retarded nonsense


Ok, now that I have said that, here is some of the ideas I have come up with. One thing that annoys me in Nethack is that the game is doing nothing but trying to kill you. I know many many ppl have ascended and won. But I find it a bit annoying to be strangled to death by an amulet with no way in hell to get it off, and 3 turns till I die. Death is needed. Harsh penelties for stupid actions (hey lets throw this fireball at that iron golem!) are needed. But I think many rougulikes take it a bit too extreem.

The idea in a nutshell that I have-

A Roguelike in many respects emulating the classic examples in such that there will be potions to find, traps to avoid, monsters to slay. However an added layer of depth, a bit of story and maybe even some interactive characters, will be added. A fellow explorer? A ghost trapped in the dungeon that will, if you dont go zapping it with a wand 1st, have a story all its own. This is not final fantasy XXVII style story, tons of cutscenes, every single guy you meet with a huge story, but a story mixed in with the random elements.
The world I feel has been little touched by such games is the Ancient culture of the Aztecs and the other various cultures near to it. While I love d&d and J.R.R. Tolkien as much as anyone, I think many of the creatures, limits, rules and weapons have been overused. If any of you ever looked at some Aztec history it is filled with war, rituals, gods, and dark deep chambers. Cant ask for more.
Many of the key commands will remain similar to those used in the classic Rogulikes. However there will be interactivity via mouse. It is most likely the standard key controls will be used by most but mouse and GUI bottons will be available to those who want to use them. The fact that tiles will be used, even for the ASCII, alows me to plan for things like animated water and fountains. Bubbling lava, and floating poison gas. In this respect the tile based graphical version will be not too fancy, as I feel this would make the game less roguelike, but simple animations like that can really make you feel the atmosphere better.
One thing I think tiles lose over ASCII is how easy, once you learn what the letters mean, it is to tell what a monster is. A 'D' is a dragon and if its red, its a fire dragon. Bang, you know its info and to run like hell. But a tile image may not look like a fire dragon to you. What I plan on doing is using a color to represent all creatures, and in load-time translate that color to the proper color-the same one used for ASCII. So the tiles will be colorized and unique PER CREATURE. Yet in reality there will be 1 or 2 graphics per creature. All dragons will look like dragons, and fire dragons will be red.
There will be a sizable outside area with more than one place to explore. These will be available to those who explore well and will contain goodies that will be well worth the trek. Along these lines there will be mysteries of a sort. I want the atmospher to be strange and unnerving and there will be areas out there with more to do than cutting down monsters.
The items will be more of a random nature and not a fixed list. There will of course be a list of wepons but with a diablo-style randomizer that alows for unique weapons and armor to be found each play.
Death WILL be permanent, however dieing will not be quite so easy as normal. Warnings will attract your atention if something really bad happens. Like a cursed amulet strangling you. I had that happen recently in nethack. I was tired after many hours, and I got this char far in the dungeon. I put on an amulet and it started to strangle me. I was tired so I did not reat the little text that poped up and said in small letters "you are bieng strangled'. So I moved 3 times and died. In all honestly, if you were bieng strangled in real life, do you have to read a little blurb of text? Or does your body go into a survival-panic mode and tell you that you cant breath? Along the same lines, the program should give you clear indication that something is wrong - a beep, highlighted text, something. This plus the game bieng a bit less sadistic will alow for longer, more enjoyable char experiances. There will be an Explore mode, so you can just play and keep your saves, and there may be a tough mode that makes death easier for those that like to die lol.
Items will be mixable. Potions + food may make something, while potion + potion may blow you up. Expect all sorts on good secret item combos.

Ok well thats it for now. I am sorry for the lack of info before but I needed to go to work and kind of just on a whim decided to get some feedback on ideas that have been brewing in my head. I hope this info maybe excites you and makes you want to play a game like this. Once again thank you all for your responses.

 

[RuySan]

For me the dream rougue like is a less unforgiving Rise of the Ku'tan.

 

[Elwro]

That would be a good idea, I agree... The concept of discovering the secrets of one huge dungeon by generations of characters who pass the knowledge from one to another appeals to me.

But while I never had any gripes with ASCII roguelikes' interface, somehow I never felt "in full control" in Demise. Only managed to get a few levels down... and usually savegames got corrupted etc.

 

[Slylandro]

I guess it depends on how much Aztec-specific culture you inject into the roguelike (did they really have dragons in Aztec mythology? etc) but I'll probably end up playing it at one point or another. Item mixing is always cool.