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Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

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May 1, 2013
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The border of the imaginary
There was a picture posted a while back in (probably) the BioWare and ME thread with a Gaider quote which went along the lines of "players get to do what we want". I think he believes more in the authority of his vision in his game more than player agency or respecting player choices. So I guess he can't resist himself from correcting others on his most glorious creations.
If that is true, he is one massive faggot. (No offence meant for bros like Jaeson)
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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There was a picture posted a while back in (probably) the BioWare and ME thread with a Gaider quote which went along the lines of "players get to do what we want". I think he believes more in the authority of his vision in his game more than player agency or respecting player choices. So I guess he can't resist himself from correcting others on his most glorious creations.

Yeah. It was from a panel.

c61WIWJ.jpg
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Well, at least they are riping off Dark Souls, so the combat will be Dark Souls for kids, they could do worse and rip off Mass Effect instead with corridors and wave based combat. Wait a minute... that was DA 2.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Dec 9, 2011
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Russia
Third game and they still can't get art style right. If I did not know for sure, I would thought it was some action JRPG in video, or one of these passing through RPGs like Amalur and like
"now we has spanish motives and high collars on cuirasses, and black chick with nice tits running around in moсtezuma headgear... and they are all inquisition. you figure out what the fuck our artists were thinking"
 
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random_encounter

Educated
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Jan 21, 2010
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Apshai's outhouse
Well, at least they are riping off Dark Souls, so the combat will be Dark Souls for kids, they could do worse and rip off Mass Effect instead with corridors and wave based combat. Wait a minute... that was DA 2.

From the videos, all that beat 'em up slashing would get him smeared by low level trash mobs looking for a good time in Dark Souls. The narrow dodge in the blinding screen of fire from the overgrown lizard flying overhead? Insta-death to teach the player a lesson in timing and margins of error.

But I admit, it could have been worse. If this came out in 2001, I'd play it.
 

Rahdulan

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Well, at least they are riping off Dark Souls, so the combat will be Dark Souls for kids, they could do worse and rip off Mass Effect instead with corridors and wave based combat. Wait a minute... that was DA 2.

Even if they're ripping off Dark Souls they're still not getting it. This image showing an armor set from Dark Souls and possible armor from DA3, image which I'm told is quite popular in the darkest corners of the internet, shows how they didn't really get that functionality can and in fact SHOULD go hand-in-hand with visual design. Can you spot what's wrong here?

Gvxwv9A.jpg
 

Black_Willow

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Dec 21, 2007
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Borderline
DA3 guy, unlike DS characters, isn't holding his shield in THE MOST RETARDED WAY EVER.

Also, Witcher 2 is still the best when it comes to armour look. Some DS armours are cringeworthy (the iron Michelin man).
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
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Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
There was a picture posted a while back in (probably) the BioWare and ME thread with a Gaider quote which went along the lines of "players get to do what we want". I think he believes more in the authority of his vision in his game more than player agency or respecting player choices. So I guess he can't resist himself from correcting others on his most glorious creations.

His quote isn't about how he believes more in the authority of his vision of the game more than player agency or respecting their choices.

He is stating that all of the options that are available are ones that are provided by the designers. So player agency isn't absolute. They can't just do whatever they want. They can only choose from among options provided by the game designers. And he is right. Maybe in the future as games that have complex emergent game play are created we will have games that provide more freedom in player agency but we haven't really had any games like that within the RPG genre. Even highly reactive games(like PE and Wasteland 2 are promising to be) are reactive because the game designers design in that reactivity.

Yes, of course, players can't do anything that isn't coded in. That's just truism. The quote gives a window into the approach he takes to narrative design, where players are given choices but consequences are disregarded because the designer wants to take the story in a particular direction.

So his stance is that sometimes reactivity should be sacrificed for a better narrative. Which is ultimately what happens in every game. Any game has to have limits on the narrative possibilities in order to add reactivity. If for no other reason than providing reactivity takes up development time that can't go towards expanding the narrative. There are certainly creative ways to limit how much those two goals hinder each other, as some narratives are more given to reactivity(Fallout NV for a good example), but they still hinder each other.

It's not whether everything has a choice for player to make, it's whether given choices have proper consequences, that choices aren't given just for choices' sake.

In any case I don't feel like arguing this topic. You may read the conversation that followed when that quote was initially posted: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...inquisition-thread.75304/page-42#post-2723609 (it was in this very thread). grotsnik and Delterius make good arguments on the topic.

I don't agree with him over exactly where the balance between the two should be. I prefer more reactivity in games, but him pointing out that that some conflict between them exists doesn't constitute him not believing in player agency. I've seen quotes from him expressing how player agency is the unique thing about games as a medium that they have going for them so he certainly understands how player agency is beneficial for games. It's worth noting that while Bioware games don't have as much reactivity in them as games from other developers, such as Obsidian, they still have a decent amount of reactivity. If anything they have experimented with increasing reactivity in their games throughout the years.
I did not claim he doesn't believe in player agency, nor respect player choices. I said he gives more importance to his vision of what should happen even after he's given players a choice.
 

Indranys

Savant
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Nov 24, 2012
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Illepsum
Even if they're ripping off Dark Souls they're still not getting it. This image showing an armor set from Dark Souls and possible armor from DA3, image which I'm told is quite popular in the darkest corners of the internet, shows how they didn't really get that functionality can and in fact SHOULD go hand-in-hand with visual design. Can you spot what's wrong here?
That shield straps remind me of this bro video:

He uses a hoplite shield without using phalanx formation??
But wait, it has a grip in the center like a normal shield?
WTF Bioware. Great fantasy weapon design BTW. :lol:
 

Delterius

Arcane
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Dec 12, 2012
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Entre a serra e o mar.
What a schizophrenic series.

I wouldn't think that taking steps back and re avaluating game design after releasing DA2 would be a bad thing.
It isn't a bad thing, but the fact that this game went from being a "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" to what we see today is pretty depressing, and it's all thanks to consoles.
Well, I don't think you need me to tell you the time of depression is past. Well behind us, with the trainwreck that was DA2. If anything, its revealed just how much the 'spiritual successor' shtick was just a publicity stunt: it wasn't just the logo that changed. But also everything one could expect from the franchise. I was one of those who hoped for a great sequel from a game as lauded as DA:O (in my eyes, a gem in the rough), whatever illusion of that was shattered and I'd be a fool not to see how much of a fool I was - and DA2 meant to be and what DA:I might just succeed at, a well-made mainstream game, with no true ties with IE.

Do note how vapid it is to be a publicity stunt. If someone wanted to be smug about DA:I, they'd point out how the limited health regen is reminiscent of what BG should have been (sans crazy resting). So yes, schizophrenic. But its a diagnosis for hope, not despair. Hope that DA:I delievers a drama the likes of which we haven't seen since BioWare's last title. Or, who knows, hope that it is:pete:. And I haven't seen much that I thoroughly hated, which is a new one even for these carefully crafted and packaged demonstrations.
 

Delterius

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Entre a serra e o mar.
So this is about how some choices didn't properly carry over into sequels? Specifically DA:O into DA2.

It isn't feasible to carry over every choice and some stuff just has to be retconned.

Yes. But there are some things of note:

The confusion stemmed from relatively small choices that could easily be carried over. Specifically the death of characters that, previously, didn't have some worldwide importance to the plot. The writers chose to give certain characters, namely Leliana, more of a spotlight afterwards, which they certainly didn't have to. But, as it happens, the writers liked that character so much that they couldn't create another one to fill her completely new role, as if synapses are a rare commodity.

Wether one favours C&C within a single game doesn't matter. Cross-game C&C wasn't just advertised but whenever the writers decide to change the continuity they retroactively devalue the player's agency in those old plots. You may not care for this (and I wouldn't blame you for it), but it would be like saying that Skyrim could have shipped without dragons because you don't particularly like them. We are discussing a failure from the developers and there's no spinning it.

Finally, while all you said is true, it doesn't appear that BioWare would dare and say it. But they totally could. A lot of people retcon gargantuan continuities because they simply can't keep track of it. Blizzard does this all the time. But, of course, BioWare's reputation as MASTER STORYTELLERS® wouldn't allow them to.

What's worse is that in keeping that reputation BioWare doesn't just follow a possibly unattainable goal, they (through Gaider) are also absolute assholes about it. I wouldn't mind if he just came out and said 'oh, we had this really cool idea and couldn't pass it on'. I'd just say 'well, just be careful with the continuity, else people will just stop caring about the story altogether' and move on.

This advice comes from experience. I used to keep track of the Warcraft setting's lore but, unfortunately, Blizzard's reins on their writer's whimsy just isn't as tight as those over their art departments. They just can't let go of dead characters so, of course, death is an empty plot point (notice the parallel). A new writer steps in, adds their own special buttefly of ideas, completely changing the tone of central characters and voilá, I just don't care anymore. Nothing is surprising because everything is surprising - there's no continuity because its effectively retroactive.

Of course, Gaider sounds like a very bitter man. So its just natural that he can't be humble about his choices. The setting is his and he can do whatever he wants.

What's funny is that this probably is a lot of noise for nothing. After all, they've commited to keeping the big choices intact (specifically the Old God baby). Smaller 'inconsistencies' are, in Gaider's own words, perfectly explainable. I don't know if it was already, but one rather obvious possibility is that Leliana is potentially undead. That wouldn't mean there's nothing to learn here - keep the suspense, but try to make it obvious that past choices had an impact. Make it obvious that there was no retcon. For one, you could have made Leliana's identity ambiguous until the time of the big reveal (and 'I WAS POSESSED BY THE MAKER' or whatever). But why learn when fans can be blamed for their silly, heretical, headcanons?
 
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drae

Augur
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
179
Nice picture. It's too bad that 'gaming realism' will mean the dude on the right will most likely be felled in a single attack...

from a sword...

with a curved blade.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
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Entre a serra e o mar.
Nice picture. It's too bad that 'gaming realism' will mean the dude on the right will most likely be felled in a single attack...

from a sword...

with a curved blade.
The dude on the right dies a lot all right. That's part of his charm - and that of his world. Others prefer the dude on the left and his awesomeness. To each his own. What I mean to say is that the art direction appears quite telling and we need not complain about it.
 

imweasel

Guest
By fantasy videogame standards the one of the right doesn't look that bad. This one is a much better comparison.
56k2.png
JRPGs generally do it better? WTF

The Japs practically invented chainmail bikinis, boob armor, and 6 meter long swords. Dude.

:lol:
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
JRPGs generally do it better? WTF

The Japs practically invented chainmail bikinis, boob armor, and 6 meter long swords. Dude.

:lol:

Thats not true. Maybe true in case of 6m. sword, I am not sure about it, but not in case of others. Boobs armor and chainmail bikinis were popularized in the western fantasy long before it came to Japan. And I don't think japanese currently abusing them much more than their wastern colleagues. But I didn't have any statistic to support that, obviously.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
Let the backpedaling and flip-flopping begin

https://twitter.com/BioMarkDarrah/status/374622005552631808
Mark Darrah ‏@BioMarkDarrah
There will be a threshold that you will heal back to after combat. This threshold will change at different difficulties. #DAI

Still dealing in the illusion of difficulty. Same old Bioware. Naturally the vocal part of the fanbase that is bad at playing games is so relieved with this news. :lol:
 

drae

Augur
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
179
The dude on the right dies a lot all right. That's part of his charm - and that of his world. Others prefer the dude on the left and his awesomeness. To each his own. What I mean to say is that the art direction appears quite telling and we need not complain about it.

My point is, there's no point getting so hung up on realism and 'functionality' in armor design, if all that functionality is just going to be ignored in combat.

What's the point of cladding a character in realistic plate or chainmail, only for him to get taken down by a dude wielding a saber? Or a lad with a shortbow?
 
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