[LP CYOA] 傳

[a bear named spigot]

D.

 

[Esquilax]

I'm going to propose something radical for a moment - I'm going to suggest that everyone read the fucking update:

“Indeed, it doesn’t,” he says calmly as he settles into a crouching combat stance that you do not recognize, his long staff held away from his body. He is remarkably composed; you don’t think taunting him will give you any advantage in a fight, and you take your own stance as you curl your fingers into claws.

“Wait, Brother Su,” calls out one of the Taishan Youths… you don’t remember which number he is. One? Two? “We have a bit of a debt to settle against Man Tiger Pig ourselves from the tournament. Can you leave him to us?”

“That is just fine with me,” replies Su Liaojing, though he remains in his stance. “Are you confident?”

“With our full Qixing Beitou Formation, Man Tiger Pig’s defeat is assured before the fight even begins!” boasts the Taishan disciple.
...
A. You call out Su Liaojing, saying that you will defeat him first before taking on the Taishan Seven. He is rumoured to be Kunlun’s best young fighter, losing only to Yunzi in the tournament: you will see just how good he is.

B. You take on the famed Qixing Beitou Formation of the Taishan Sect. This is the most powerful technique they have to offer – break the formation, and they can have no complaints about your strength.

From the text here, Su Liaojing is a very calm, level-headed guy who is very difficult to distract. This is a point against D because it seems more likely that his perceptiveness will mean that he might give us a good whack for our trouble in D. Jing might be really fast, but beelining for the Taishan is still risky in that regard because he is 100% focused on us and can't be thrown off his game by your standard Man Tiger Pig trolling.

However, while he's cautious, it also seems like he's not really spoiling for a fight. He's ready in case we do something - understandable, we don't have the best reputation - but he's not going out of his way to attack us. I think we're making a bit of a silly assumption in that we think that we'll have to fight both Su Liaojing and the Taishan Seven consecutively in A/B, but that's just the thing; I believe that Su Liaojing can be reasoned with and if we beat Taishan, we won't have to fight him. While the Taishan students might still be butthurt about the tournament, Liaojing doesn't seem to have any particular quarrel with us.

Also, I don't think that giving a spectator opportunity to see us in action isn't nearly as bad as the issue of getting tired, which will certainly happen in a tough fight. A ton of people have seen the Five Greats fight, yet they're still the best. We faced this issue earlier when we unleashed our full arsenal in the Guo Fu fight:

Which brings me to something I need to point out about showing off techniques. At this stage I think it is fine to make a comment on it.

Not everyone walks around here with a video recorder in their head. Not everyone is a master with an encyclopedic knowledge of every technique that ever existed.

Demonstrating your techniques casually at average speed, yes, they can catch that after a few fights. Going all out with AGI 10 speed and unpredictable movement? How easy is that to observe and analyze? All they're coming away with, if they have no prior knowledge of your fighting ability, is that you're fast, strong, and that your moves are brutal and unpredictable.

They're not all Cao'er with her instant recall. They can't just replay your fight in slow motion and nitpick your technique to death in a blow by blow analysis.

And even if they did, how would they counter? Matching you in speed is impossible for many of them. Thinking up something that is likely to work isn't that easy. They can theorize, but putting it into practice against a nutcase raining down claws on you is a different matter. You can do it, but you're also possessed of a talented fighting instinct and you have the agility to back it up, if not always the ability.

Now, when you're fighting the sects seriously but need to hold back to avoid killing them, that's when they'll be able to catch most of your techniques.

But does it even matter all that much in the long run? No. It really doesn't. If you're going to lose just because people know your techniques, you aren't a good fighter in the first place. Like Rong Jr. Things are going to get harder, of course, but it's not doom and gloom either.

Now, Su Liaojing strikes me as a perceptive chap, but just because he's seen us fight once doesn't mean that he's suddenly got a window into all of our weaknesses. It's one thing to see a fighter's flaws, and quite another to try and execute that counter you've been thinking about when they are charging at you full speed with claws.

Based on this, I believe that we ought to go with B, but I'll flop to a conditional B > D

 

[treave]

Alright, since most everyone has weighed in, I'll close the votes in about 12 hours or so. That should be enough time for this new proposal that just popped up above my post right when I hit Post Reply to stand the test of rigorous intellectual discussion?

 

[Nevill]

B was my first call, yes.

However, while you say that Liaojing can be reasoned with, just what do you think you will reason with him about? Jing is not in the mood to explain anything to them even when the man asked him to:

“I am Su Liaojing of Kunlun. May I ask what you are doing here, and why you attacked our seniors?”

“I’m just doing what everyone else is doing,” you say. “Attacking the weak.” You give them a feral grin, but they do not shrink back. You can tell that though the fighters you just beat were their elders in age, that is not necessarily so in terms of strength.

“The cultists poisoned the masters of the Eight Sects and then brought down the cliff as a means to sabotage the tournament. I do not think you are right to protect them,” replies Su Liaojing.

“Really?” You look over your shoulder, at the twelve girls huddled together in fear. “When have I ever done anything right by the Eight Sects?” you laugh.

I mean, he just tried to reason with you, and you refused to talk. Why do you think it will work after you beat his allies?

It is not like Su Liaojing is being unreasonable here, you are.

That said, I am perfectly fine with B. I just don't want to lose outright with C, because we have people to answer for.

Let's try this one out. B>D.

 

[SirArvedeth]

Well, I think that what Equilax wrote is actually quite perceptive. Would go for B, but since I prefer D over C, I will as well flop to that conditional B>D.

 

[RealDDc]

Alright, since most everyone has weighed in, I'll close the votes in about 12 hours or so. That should be enough time for this new proposal that just popped up above my post right when I hit Post Reply to stand the test of rigorous intellectual discussion?

Not quite, we may require time to set up freeform after all default options are analyzed and debated to death.

 

[Nevill]

Not quite, we may require time to set up freeform after all default options are analyzed and debated to death.

Oh, I know, I know! Let's challenge them both and Muron Yandi simultaneously! If we win, our badass reputation will be through the roof, and we may get +2 in swords. It'll be totally worth it!

And if you think Liaojing will be hindering Taishan guys, with Yandi to boot they will totally be incapacitated. Vote for choice E, guys!

 

[Esquilax]

I mean, he just tried to reason with you, and you refused to talk. Why do you think it will work now?

It is not like Su Liaojing is being unreasonable here, you are.

That said, I am perfectly fine with B. I just don't want to lose outright with C, because we have people to answer for.

Well, by playing by their rules, accepting the Taishan's challenge and fighting them fair-and-square, we show that we're at least somewhat more honourable than Su Liaojing anticipated, if misguided in aiding the Fire Cult. Su Liaojing doesn't seem particularly eager to fight us himself, which leads me to believe that if we show that we're willing to play by orthodox rules and partake in a battle with the Taishan Seven, we might be able to reason with the Kunlun fighter. I don't think that the reverse of this - fighting Liaojing first, then the Taishan - is really on the menu. Liaojing seems reasonable and open to dialogue, but the Taishan fighters do not.

Plus, the thing that is making me a bit hesitant about D is the fact that Su Liaojing is not so easily rattled by our antics. He's pretty sharp, and I think that he's anticipating some sort of dirty trick on our end, which is making D a bit less palatable for me. We might be extremely fast, but there are ways to counteract that, and an extremely clever fighter who is able to anticipate us doing something is one of them. This is probably the strongest point against D. The guy is in his stance and preparing for just the sort of thing that we'd do in D.

However, the most important argument I can offer here is that there is absolutely no doubt that fighting the formation will result in not only +1 SWORDS, but in +AMOTHERFUCKINGBILLION SWORDS. Do you really want to pass that up, Nevill?

 

[treave]

B was my first call, yes.

However, while you say that Liaojing can be reasoned with, just what do you think you will reason with him about? Jing is not in the mood to explain anything to them even when the man asked him to:

“I am Su Liaojing of Kunlun. May I ask what you are doing here, and why you attacked our seniors?”

“I’m just doing what everyone else is doing,” you say. “Attacking the weak.” You give them a feral grin, but they do not shrink back. You can tell that though the fighters you just beat were their elders in age, that is not necessarily so in terms of strength.

“The cultists poisoned the masters of the Eight Sects and then brought down the cliff as a means to sabotage the tournament. I do not think you are right to protect them,” replies Su Liaojing.

“Really?” You look over your shoulder, at the twelve girls huddled together in fear. “When have I ever done anything right by the Eight Sects?” you laugh.

I mean, he just tried to reason with you, and you refused to talk. Why do you think it will work now?

It is not like Su Liaojing is being unreasonable here, you are..

Hm, let's go by that conversation again.

Liaojing asks Jing why he attacked them.

Jing replies that he was doing what everyone else was doing, and attacking the weak, i.e. pretty much saying that the seniors were bullying the cultists and he decided to return the favour.

Liaojing responds with the accusation of the cultists' misdeeds to justify his seniors' actions.

Jing implies that it is a difference of opinion - the orthodox sects see the world a certain way, and he sees things differently. What is right for him may not be right for them.

Subsequently, Liaojing agrees and ends the talk, when he could have pushed further in trying to frame the discussion about what exactly is 'right' in this scenario and trying to get you to see things his way, but he has already made his case: the cultists are in the wrong. Not that they particularly deserve whatever is coming to them, but he is not likely to let Jing get away with attacking his seniors and defending the cultists with just a "oh they were attacking the weak, guess you're alright then", because that's not his call to make.

To prove to him that the cultists aren't the bad side and thus there is no need to fight, Jing'd have to offer up facts to change his mind, which at this point is not very likely because he doesn't really know anything about what transpired at the cliff. Don't really see what's unreasonable about any side here, just a shitty situation chockful of miscommunication.

I don't really see Jing as the type of guy who is going to bend over backwards and plead for understanding and mercy here if he can just beat them off trollishly, and so that's how it ends up. Unfortunately.

 

[Tribute]

B was my first call, yes.

However, while you say that Liaojing can be reasoned with, just what do you think you will reason with him about? Jing is not in the mood to explain anything to them even when the man asked him to:

“I am Su Liaojing of Kunlun. May I ask what you are doing here, and why you attacked our seniors?”

“I’m just doing what everyone else is doing,” you say. “Attacking the weak.” You give them a feral grin, but they do not shrink back. You can tell that though the fighters you just beat were their elders in age, that is not necessarily so in terms of strength.

“The cultists poisoned the masters of the Eight Sects and then brought down the cliff as a means to sabotage the tournament. I do not think you are right to protect them,” replies Su Liaojing.

“Really?” You look over your shoulder, at the twelve girls huddled together in fear. “When have I ever done anything right by the Eight Sects?” you laugh.

I mean, he just tried to reason with you, and you refused to talk. Why do you think it will work after you beat his allies?

This is what I meant about "Jing doesn't have a history of explaining himself". Jing may be loyal and have a strong moral character, but he's also kind of a dick. He enjoys pretending to be way worse than he is.

That said, I suppose just beating the hell out of them works as well as a trolling method as deliberately ignoring their challenge and calling out the other guy, and I'm not terribly invested in my old choice. Flop to B>D.

 

[Nevill]

we show that we're at least somewhat more honourable than Su Liaojing anticipated
show that we're at least somewhat more honourable
honourable

No. Please, no.

First, you really should not have mentioned Jing and honourable in the same sentence. The notions of honor that orthodox guys have are wierd sometimes. Time and time again we said that we wanted to avoid the same pitfalls.

Second, all that matters for them now is that Jing is aiding the Fire Cult. The girls, even though they are not particularly dangerous, need to die not be protected, because they were with the Fire Cult. That's how it looks from Liaojing's standpoint. Surely your aid to the Cult would not have remained without consequences, even if they didn't have an axe to grind with you beforehand.

I see no diplomatic way out of this.

I don't really see Jing as the type of guy who is going to bend over backwards and plead for understanding and mercy here if he can just beat them off trollishly, and so that's how it ends up. Unfortunately.

This is what I intended to say, and what Tribute is saying.
It really is not that hard to understand - the Saint, even if he is considered orthodox, understands the point about mercy just fine. But Jing is not going to appeal to their hearts and minds if he can just force his way. It is not the character we've built. Plus, the way he is delivering his thoughts is not really suitable for a constructive dialogue. Too much troll.

Damn, now I am interested if MYSTARY Jing could have done it.

 

[treave]

Cut the kid some slack, he's just overcompensating for a month of not really being able to troll anyone after coming down from that high of trolling the entire palace.

If you had handled the foreign pirate problem in a manner more amenable to the orthodox sects - remember, Kunlun was there - a diplomatic solution here would be a lot more possible since both Jing's disposition towards the orthodox and Liaojing's attitude towards you would be different.

 

[Nevill]

If you had handled the foreign pirate problem in a manner more amenable to the orthodox sects

What was it?

And while we are at it, what would have happened if we had helped the pugilists there? For some reason, I thought there would have been a massacre not unlike this one.

 

[Tribute]

Yeah, I remember most of the reasons we picked the option we picked was because it was the "save the most lives" option. I seem to remember all the other options being ones that resulted in some rather bloody fighting.

Unless you mean we should have just exterminated the Minamoto because dirty foreigners?

I should probably go back and check what our options specifically were, though.

Having doublechecked our options, they seem to have been "walk away and let them kill each other", "join one side and kill the other side" for each side, and "fight everyone ourselves and hopefully kill nobody".

 

[treave]

Don't take the challenge, play humble, sail along with them, let the battle happen which will kill more of the pugilists than if you took them all on yourself and also cost the lives of some of the Minamoto, innocent or otherwise, which subsequently allows you the option to convince Zhou that continuing is a pointless slaughter if you had managed to meet and talk with Yorimitsu during the initial fight. You manage to come off as the good guy trying to save lives, being less about the glory. But would it have played out so perfectly? I don't know.

Ironically, getting the highest kill-count there would not have endeared you to them. It only shows that you are bloodthirsty, like your master. Yes, hypocritical, coming from them, but that is how it is.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Well while awesome, Jing's response here was a bit too trollish for my taste. The attack on the girls can be called many things, but reasonable is not one of it because reason had nothing to do with it, bloodlust and nobody around to control or direct it does. And Jing should have pointed that out to them that their actions now also have little to do with reason. He should have pointed out (hell, maybe they don't know it, but Jing does) that BJ is fighting a losing battle right now and Guo Fu is hanging by a thread against the entire cult fighting force alone. And that instead of helping them they too are now wasting time on attacking a bunch of frightened girls and us because we protected them, what an example of orthodox honour that is. Only in a more sarcastic and trollish way, of course.

 

[treave]

What reason does Jing have to think that they would believe him about Bai and Guo after he just beat down more than a dozen of their people and openly protected the cultists? I mean, maybe if you did D3, but D2 won.

I get it that people want to really fine-tune the character to their satisfaction and get the specific responses that they want, but that just isn't going to happen easily here, as has been demonstrated right from the start of the LP.

 

[Zero Credibility]

What reason does Jing have to think that they would believe him about Bai and Guo after he just beat down more than a dozen of their people and openly protected the cultists?

There's a bunch of freighted girls huddling behind us and yet these guys think that attacking them is reasonable? I'm sorry, but these guys are out of their minds if that is the case. As for BJ / Guo Fu, well either they already know of it, in which case Jing is just rubbing their noses into their incompetence, or they don't, in which case he can rub their noses afterwards if they don't believe him. Either way, it's a much more effective trolling method than not saying anything.

I get it that people want to really fine-tune the character to their satisfaction and get the specific responses that they want, but that just isn't going to happen easily here, as has been demonstrated right from the start of the LP.

No question there, it's a CYOA, it can only play out one way.

 

[treave]

They started huddling behind you after you came in to white-knight for them. It was a fight before that, albeit a fight that they were losing.

And what is Jing's motive here? To make sure the Cult can't escape and suffers more? Then yes, he should be telling them to go to Guo Fu and Bai Jiutian's aid. Is that what you want to achieve? If not, what is the difference between telling and not telling?

I really don't get the reasoning here.

edit: Anyway, it might be better to clarify your desired approach before the choice is made so that you can actually argue about it before I write the update. As in, 'Oh, in D2 I'd like to go in and try to convince them that they're being bloodthirsty louts and inform them of their tactical mistakes before resorting to force, is that possible?'

 

[Esquilax]

Okay, since it seems that diplomacy isn't really possible, I've flopped my previous vote to D > B. I'm banking on our superior speed being able to get past Su Liaojing's staff.

 

[Nevill]

Don't take the challenge, play humble, sail along with them, let the battle happen which will kill more of the pugilists than if you took them all on yourself and also cost the lives of some of the Minamoto, innocent or otherwise, which subsequently allows you the option to convince Zhou that continuing is a pointless slaughter if you had managed to meet and talk with Yorimitsu during the initial fight. You manage to come off as the good guy trying to save lives, being less about the glory.

Huh. Isn't it ironic that trying to actually save lives results in the worst possible reputation in stark contrast to trying to appear that way? Such a thankless job.

Speaking of saving lives. Esquilax, how sure you are that we should fight only one side here, leaving the girls face-to-face with Liaojing who have just said they can die for all he cares? It is not warranted that he would attack them, and he does not look the type to do this sort of thing, but what would really stop him? After all, as was said, it is not his call to make if they should be shown mercy. I still would like to keep our priorities straight here.

Edit: and you've just flopped. Ok, then. Let's just say it didn't pan out.

 

[Baltika9]

Huh. Isn't that ironic that trying to actually save lives results in the worst possible reputation in stark contrast to trying to appear that way? Such a thankless job.

Fucking orthodoxes and their pride. It is stuff like this that reinforces my belief of LORD Zhang being a misunderstood soul just like Jing. We are starting to sound more and more like him, too.

 

[Jester]

flop to D
In name of Zhang and update.
Long live Lord Zhang.

 

[Zero Credibility]

They started huddling behind you after you came in to white-knight for them. It was a fight before that, albeit a fight that they were losing.

Well yes, to keep from getting killed outright. Right now they are not even doing that. I think it's the phrase "girls huddled together in fear" that really screams out to me that these guys are bloodthirsty morons. If there is any other choice of words that would convey that more strongly, I can't think of any. Apart from maybe "...while clutching little children".

And what is Jing's motive here? To make sure the Cult can't escape and suffers more? Then yes, he should be telling them to go to Guo Fu and Bai Jiutian's aid. Is that what you want to achieve? If not, what is the difference between telling and not telling?

I really don't get the reasoning here.

Nah, I was just stating my preference in trolling styles - by outright calling them bloodthirsty louts with all the tactical sense of a rabid mutt. There probably is no reasoning with them.

I'm curios though, just what would be our approach if D3 has won? Then the goal would be to stop the fighting, but I don't see how beating up a bunch of girls that are only trying to run away would help with that. And if we wouldn't do that, then how would that play any different than what we have now?

 

[Nevill]

What Zero Credibility is saying is that you should have left them as dudes, then nobody would care about them half as much.

I just hope we didn't pass up a chance to snatch Yunzi from the clutches of the Fire Cult.