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Baldur's Gate PoE vs IE: Do wizards need to have more stuff to do in combat? DISCUSS!

Zombra

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the fact that a couple of them might be just firing missiles
What sorts of missiles? Weaksauce, thematically inappropriate, lame-excuse-to-do-something sling stones?
Yeah, I agree that "something to do" nothing attacks are pointless.
I'm honestly fine with the party wizard(s) literally doing nothing when magic isn't called for.
 

Delterius

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Because doing stuff - having to do stuff - is more tactically interesting than not doing stuff.

Those fights in low level D&D that your mage can "sit out"? There's nothing monocled about those. You know what they are? They're easy fights. Because you could manage them with a smaller party than the game allowed you - the mages didn't need to be there at all, you were just babysitting them because "D&D Grognard 101" says you're supposed to have a mage.

Sorry, but I don't buy into that stuff anymore.
Turning mages from stone slingers into magical pew pewers just isn't very interesting either.

Let's have better encounter design. Instead of large wilderness zones full of Xvarts, Gnolls and tip toeing Ogre Berserkers, lets have more dungeons with fewer trash encounters where mages will use their spellbooks across 4 interesting battles.
 
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TheLostOne

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I'll say this again - it seems to me that most posters ITT look at the Infinity Engine experience from the perspective of Baldur's Gate 2, and they don't really understand the kinds of things low level D&D-style combat needs in order to be engaging.

I've played plenty of low level D&D. I think it's a matter of expectation and setting. A level 1 party are a ragtag group of nobodies. The best your little village had to offer, sure, but not masters of the universe. Everyone is weak and squishy, fighters included. The wizard is just out of his apprenticeship. Why should he have a limitless supply of arcane energy.

But that's D&D. Other games and settings do it differently. I don't mind low level repeatable powers. It's when games try to make the all-day repeatable powers equal in strength to hitting things with swords that things get screwy. Then they take away the big guns because now the casters are OP. They can already do okay in every fight, why do they need horrid wilting or dominate monster. Just make their AOE's bigger and their damage damagier. Don't outshine the fighters, though. Ugh.

Anyway, it comes down to preference. I already said, I don't mind when it's the wizards turn and I think, "Hmm... the fighters can probably handle this and it might not be worth burning my spells on. Let me move behind cover but stay close in case I need to step in." It doesn't make me feel like the wizard is useless. Even if it did, there are so many other options for actions in D&D that are either in games already or could be implemented. Use a wand or magic item. Ready a counterspell. Use your cantrips (3.5). Aid another. Force a potion down the downed guys throat. And yes, shoot your crossbow or use a sling.
 

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Let's have better encounter design. Instead of large wilderness zones full of Xvarts, Gnolls and tip toeing Ogre Berserkers, lets have more dungeons with fewer trash encounters where mages will use their spellbooks across 4 interesting battles.

It's not just wildernesses that have trash mobs; both of the enemies that I mentioned were found in dungeons.

And I don't think it makes sense to give up on entire types of scenarios in all RPGs just to support some classic ideal of a mage.

Turning mages from stone slingers into magical pew pewers just isn't very interesting either.

Pew-pewing combined with slightly more generous Sorcerer-style memorized spellcasting seems like it'll be interesting enough for me.

Anyway, it comes down to preference. I already said, I don't mind when it's the wizards turn and I think, "Hmm... the fighters can probably handle this and it might not be worth burning my spells on. Let me move behind cover but stay close in case I need to step in." It doesn't make me feel like the wizard is useless.

It's a matter of quantity. I just think in the IE games, namely the low level ones this game is most inspired by, that could happen way too often. It'd be okay if it happened occasionally, as I'm sure it will even in PoE.
 
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Sitra Achara

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By the by, in toee you could scribe lots of level 1 scrolls for dirt cheap. Absolutely no reason for your wizard to sit back. (I take scribe scroll for my cleric for same reason)
 

Delterius

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Let's have better encounter design. Instead of large wilderness zones full of Xvarts, Gnolls and tip toeing Ogre Berserkers, lets have more dungeons with fewer trash encounters where mages will use their spellbooks across 4 interesting battles.

It's not just wildernesses that have trash mobs; both of the enemies that I mentioned were found in dungeons.

And I don't think it makes sense to give up on entire types of scenarios in all RPGs just to support some classic ideal of a mage.

Something that is called trash is the kind of scenario you want to preserve? Trash with 'something to keep you busy' spells are incredibly boring.
 

Infinitron

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Something that is called trash is the kind of scenario you want to preserve?

Yep. I'm a believer in the distinction between "trash mobs", which can be good if judiciously applied, and tedious "filler combat", which is always bad.
 

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I know this thread is about serious spergfest combat faggotry and teh balances!!11 but maybe someone should step up and say that mages casually casting magic bolts and pew pew fireballs as weak attacks makes magic feel even more boring and less magical than 4th edition cheesecake artwork
 

TheLostOne

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Use your cantrips (3.5).
But that's a weak repeatable power...

OHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

TheLostOne said:
But that's D&D. Other games and settings do it differently. I don't mind low level repeatable powers. It's when games try to make the all-day repeatable powers equal in strength to hitting things with swords that things get screwy. Then they take away the big guns because now the casters are OP. They can already do okay in every fight, why do they need horrid wilting or dominate monster. Just make their AOE's bigger and their damage damagier. Don't outshine the fighters, though. Ugh.
 

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That wasn't actually directed at you TheLostOne, you just gave me the opening to ridicule the entire argument.
 

Delterius

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Something that is called trash is the kind of scenario you want to preserve?

Yep. I'm a believer in the distinction between "trash mobs", which can be good if judiciously applied, and tedious "filler combat", which is always bad.
Perfect!

Then let's have better encounter design. Instead of large wilderness zones full of Xvarts, Gnolls and tip toeing Ogre Berserkers, lets have more dungeons with less filler combat where mages will use their spellbooks across 4 interesting battles.
 

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I think Infinitron is correct in that you really don't need a Wizard in Baldur's Gate 1 for the most part, perhaps even full stop. Cleric spells come in handy a lot more often.

My historical BG1 playthrough is a lot more martial. I usually have one Wizard and one Cleric. I never originally cheesed through fights with Fireball, Web and the Cloud spells like other people seem to have done.

Me neither, originally, but i can't think of living in a world without Magic Missiles and Haste, don't think my first final battle back then would have been succesful without those.
 

Infinitron

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Then let's play KotC or Blackguards.

Okay but this thread is about another type of game.

If it wasn't clear, I do not consider the dungeons of BG1 to be "filler" (at least not usually) although I understand that many people disagree.
 

Delterius

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Zombra

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I know this thread is about serious spergfest combat faggotry and teh balances!!11 but maybe someone should step up and say that mages casually casting magic bolts and pew pew fireballs as weak attacks makes magic feel even more boring and less magical than 4th edition cheesecake artwork
Yeah. This is really a question of setting moreso than one of gameplay, but I am also turned off by worlds in which "magic" is just another tool lying around. When there's no difference between a fire bolt and a crossbow bolt except for cool particle effects and DoT, I'm like ehhhhhh. Let magic be a weird, powerful, impressive thing.

Of course in PoE there's a freaking starburst flash of yellow soul energy when you stick out your ankle and trip a wolf, so I guess that ship has sailed.
 

Volourn

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"I've played plenty of low level D&D. I think it's a matter of expectation and setting. A level 1 party are a ragtag group of nobodies. The best your little village had to offer, sure, but not masters of the universe. Everyone is weak and squishy, fighters included. The wizard is just out of his apprenticeship. Why should he have a limitless supply of arcane energy.

But that's D&D. Other games and settings do it differently. I don't mind low level repeatable powers. It's when games try to make the all-day repeatable powers equal in strength to hitting things with swords that things get screwy. Then they take away the big guns because now the casters are OP. They can already do okay in every fight, why do they need horrid wilting or dominate monster. Just make their AOE's bigger and their damage damagier. Don't outshine the fighters, though. Ugh.

Anyway, it comes down to preference. I already said, I don't mind when it's the wizards turn and I think, "Hmm... the fighters can probably handle this and it might not be worth burning my spells on. Let me move behind cover but stay close in case I need to step in." It doesn't make me feel like the wizard is useless. Even if it did, there are so many other options for actions in D&D that are either in games already or could be implemented. Use a wand or magic item. Ready a counterspell. Use your cantrips (3.5). Aid another. Force a potion down the downed guys throat. And yes, shoot your crossbow or use a sling."

A-fuckin-men!
 

commie

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All a level 1 Wizard needs is 5 useless darts and a magic missile. It worked in Pool of Radiance and the constant swearing as the useless fucker missed every time or failed with his one spell was fucking more engaging than any of the 'new shit' machine gunner higher level crap that seems to be the default entry level for a spell caster these days. The whole brilliance of low level early edition AD&D is the sheer power of progression for mages, where you started less than useless, but with care and perseverance, that 4 extra HP, that extra low level spell and the opening of a higher tier, that find of a half decent staff that made the character somewhat useful even after his base spells ran out and the fact that having a staff allowed to diversify in memorization in order to get the most out of your precious handful of spells, all gave a disproportionate feeling of relief and excitement and power, and by the time you were scaling level 6 or 7 late game(in todays age, that would be after 2 hours of play time), your mage was quite a dealer of death, and you felt you had gone through a real evolution.



EDIT: I must be going mad as I agree with Volly.
 

Ninjerk

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"I've played plenty of low level D&D. I think it's a matter of expectation and setting. A level 1 party are a ragtag group of nobodies. The best your little village had to offer, sure, but not masters of the universe. Everyone is weak and squishy, fighters included. The wizard is just out of his apprenticeship. Why should he have a limitless supply of arcane energy.

But that's D&D. Other games and settings do it differently. I don't mind low level repeatable powers. It's when games try to make the all-day repeatable powers equal in strength to hitting things with swords that things get screwy. Then they take away the big guns because now the casters are OP. They can already do okay in every fight, why do they need horrid wilting or dominate monster. Just make their AOE's bigger and their damage damagier. Don't outshine the fighters, though. Ugh.

Anyway, it comes down to preference. I already said, I don't mind when it's the wizards turn and I think, "Hmm... the fighters can probably handle this and it might not be worth burning my spells on. Let me move behind cover but stay close in case I need to step in." It doesn't make me feel like the wizard is useless. Even if it did, there are so many other options for actions in D&D that are either in games already or could be implemented. Use a wand or magic item. Ready a counterspell. Use your cantrips (3.5). Aid another. Force a potion down the downed guys throat. And yes, shoot your crossbow or use a sling."

A-fuckin-men!
wouldn't you rather spellcasters always had something AWESOME to do?
 

Volourn

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Spellcasters always have something awesome to do. Even low level D&D. If people like Sawyer weren't so fukkin' ignorant and retartet they'd know that. But, hey, mages can' cast Finger of Death at 1st level. That's bullshitz!
 

Zombra

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wouldn't you rather spellcasters always had something AWESOME to do?
Not really. I can understand the appeal of a movie that's 90 minutes of nothing but big tits and bigger explosions, and there are some games I play for the same reasons, but I prefer RPGs to use something called pacing.
 

eremita

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"I've played plenty of low level D&D. I think it's a matter of expectation and setting. A level 1 party are a ragtag group of nobodies. The best your little village had to offer, sure, but not masters of the universe. Everyone is weak and squishy, fighters included. The wizard is just out of his apprenticeship. Why should he have a limitless supply of arcane energy.

But that's D&D. Other games and settings do it differently. I don't mind low level repeatable powers. It's when games try to make the all-day repeatable powers equal in strength to hitting things with swords that things get screwy. Then they take away the big guns because now the casters are OP. They can already do okay in every fight, why do they need horrid wilting or dominate monster. Just make their AOE's bigger and their damage damagier. Don't outshine the fighters, though. Ugh.

Anyway, it comes down to preference. I already said, I don't mind when it's the wizards turn and I think, "Hmm... the fighters can probably handle this and it might not be worth burning my spells on. Let me move behind cover but stay close in case I need to step in." It doesn't make me feel like the wizard is useless. Even if it did, there are so many other options for actions in D&D that are either in games already or could be implemented. Use a wand or magic item. Ready a counterspell. Use your cantrips (3.5). Aid another. Force a potion down the downed guys throat. And yes, shoot your crossbow or use a sling."

A-fuckin-men!
So you're basically saying that it is pointless to discuss the core systems without thinking about the whole game (itemization etc.) in the background, right? I think that's a valid point actually.
 

Raghar

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If Wizards could use bows in 2E that would make them a little more useful.
quote from 2E session:

You see wizard siting on the throne.
Wizard seen you rose and grabbed two handed sword.

Comment from one of players: "We are screwed."

Well it looks like not every 2E session had wizard with puny daggers and staves.

Another example is dungeon crawl, where when you'd waste MP on every rat, you wouldn't be able to cast 3x fireblasts against yakataurs, and teleport before yakataur captain would make pincushion from you.

So winners didn't have choice, and even when they didn't have proficiency with stronger weapons than daggers, they were forced to git gut.

And when I looked at quotes I also seen:
How much XP is Demigorgon worth.
And famous.
Important question. What city are we in again?
 

J_C

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Anyway, it comes down to preference. I already said, I don't mind when it's the wizards turn and I think, "Hmm... the fighters can probably handle this and it might not be worth burning my spells on. Let me move behind cover but stay close in case I need to step in." It doesn't make me feel like the wizard is useless. Even if it did, there are so many other options for actions in D&D that are either in games already or could be implemented. Use a wand or magic item. Ready a counterspell. Use your cantrips (3.5). Aid another. Force a potion down the downed guys throat. And yes, shoot your crossbow or use a sling."

A-fuckin-men!
A-FUCKIN-MEN indeed. Couldn't have said better myself. I never understood why is it a problem in D&D if you mage only steps in, if his magic is really needed. So what if I only use the mage if there is a big baddy coming, or if my party is overwhelmed?


wouldn't you rather spellcasters always had something AWESOME to do?

:shrugs: If I want an awesome button, I play Dragon Age.
 

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