Legend of Grimrock 2

[Lemming42]

So we've gone from Grimrock being universally ridiculed as a dance simulator with puzzles every time it's mentioned to Grimrock 2 having three active threads (two with identical titles, apart from punctuation). Am I to conclude that, even if I grew tired of Grimrock and stopped playing halfway through, Grimrock 2 would still be worth scheduling for future play?

Depends what you didn't like about Grimrock, but pretty much every aspect is improved in Grimrock 2.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Probably Pyramid of Umas & Castle Nex cause they require special quest items to enter.

Character levels, I meant.

BTW, I did some testing and barbarian is a 100% better light dual-wielder than the rogue. Why? Because of how dual-wielding penalty works. You see, it's applied not to all damage, but only to the damage of the weapon itself (along with any kind of skill damage bonus, but that's it - strength/dexterity modifiers and aggressive bonus don't count). So the penalty itself is not as huge as it seems and the barb's strength buffs should be more than enough to, at the very least, even out that 15% penalty difference. And the real difference is that the barb starts with 80 hp and gains 10 HP per level whereas rogue has what, 45 and 6? And while you may make the rogue a backliner, it really slows down his weapon skill progression. Not to mention that as a backliner you can do a minotaur/aggressive/headhunter barb with humongous damage bonus (I wonder what the backstabs will be).

Another thing is how freaking awesome the blowpipe is. Dat disabling special - can't wait until I gain enough levels to set up backstabs with it (lvl 9 is required - long time, though, and I've already burned through the extra skill tome).

 

[Unkillable Cat]

As somebody who projectile vomited for about 3 and a half hours after being subjected to Grimrock combat for 2 minutes, is this game recommendable? I really really hated the square dance rsi inducing fucking shit combat of the first one.

The square dance is still there, but there are a few more...twists to it.

BTW, to those who have finished the game - what are the endgame levels?

Castle Nex is the only true "endgame" level, though each floor (4?) is small in scale.

The level layout is kinda ambiguous. The graveyard is clearly meant to be the last (even after the pyramid) because the monsters are tougher there and the puzzles are mostly about punishing you with damage if you mess up. I'd say that the level layout is Starting area - Castle surroundings - Swamp area - Dungeon - "hamlet" area & sewers - pyramid - crystal mines - graveyard - castle. The thing is, as Multi-headed Cow mentioned, you only have to complete 80% of the game to be able to get a "win" scenario, and except for a few tough entry puzzles you are free to tackle these areas as you see fit.

 

[Shadenuat]

Character levels, I meant.

Mm I'd say 15 for humans, 14 for everyone else. You max 3 skills through game, but should really build for 2 as those are what you're going to do through game for most time.
Yes, the character building is that, uh, unexciting.

As for rogues vs. barbs, I dunno, we'd have to calculate STR bonus first. High level weapons do have large damage forks, even one handed ones are at 20-50, multiply by weapon skill, and see how good Rogues really are.
Guess they should have added a crit bonus to melee attacks of Rogue too.

Also I did't find that many skulls in game actually, although I did not collect them either.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Fact of the day: I never considered dual-wielding. I found the shields to be too useful or went with two-handed weapons. I never considered the blowpipe either.

I wanted to try out the cannon, but while I managed to amass 64 cannonballs I never went through with equipping it. Too much weight involved. On the upside, I found a repeater rifle that gave me the option of either firing a single shot, or firing a barrage of bullets that did far too little damage (15-20 per bullet).

Another thing: There are multiple Tomes of Knowledge. I found 3 during my playthrough, all from secrets. I only ever found 1 Tome of Leadership though, so choose carefully. (I went with the Human.)

 

[Pope Amole II]

As for rogues vs. barbs, I dunno, we'd have to calculate STR bonus first. High level weapons do have large damage forks, even one handed ones are at 20-50, multiply by weapon skill, and see how good Rogues really are.

Then that's easy - maxed out weapon skill doubles the damage, so we're talking 40-100 base, 24-60 modified for the barbarian, 30-75 modified for the rogue (though these calculations are a wee bit incorrect as barb uses str-based light weapons, rogue uses dex ones and they're generally somewhat weaker in terms of base damage). Anyhow, that's 6-15 difference, ~10.5 damage. 14 levels of barb give 7 damage - yeah, rogue wins 3.5 damage per attack. The question is, is it worth the hp lost?

As for the skulls - there are at least 10, so that's up to 5 damage (though some are pretty late, obviously).

 

[Shadenuat]

The question is, is it worth the hp lost?

Dex-guy would also get better Accuracy while STR guy would have to invest into skill (although for end game 2+ points there is handy for any melee char), Minotaur with max damage would have like, negative to-hit rating at start probably. Dex guy could use those points for Crit skill instead.
But Light weapons with STR bonus do have bigger damage.
However, there is a nice amount of equipment that improves DEX (like full Rogue set), but finding good full set that improves STR is more difficult.

Hit points, 5*14 = 70 extra, let's get through my backpack - Amulet of Nergal +50, one crystal set piece +10-15 - here's our HP.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Dex-guy would also get better Accuracy while STR guy would have to invest into skill (although for end game 2+ points there is handy for any melee char), Minotaur with max damage would have like, negative to-hit rating at start probably. Dex guy could use those points for Crit skill instead.
But Light weapons with STR bonus do have bigger damage.

Hit points, 5*14 = 70 extra, let's get through my backpack - Amulet of Nergal +50, one crystal set piece +10-15 - here's our HP.

But that's if you invest into strength & vitality from the start when, as a minotaur, you can also invest into strength & dexterity (which I always do - I also take weapon specialization instead of headhunter that is crappy for the 80% of the game). And let's not forget that minotaur is just one option - you can still do insectoid or lizardman barb (and those are the options that should actually be considered as minotaurs are kinda crap anyways). And, well, you're investing into accuracy anyways because it's not like you have lots of other options for a dual-wielder after you max out weapons & critical at the level 9.

And that's 70+35 - don't forget the initial HP discrepancy. And it's not like you have 4 amulets of nergal and like no one else in the party needs them. 100 hp is nothing to scoff at, especially if it is, for example, a lizardfolk or an insectoid barbarian with either resists or protection bonuses.

But see, it's not even about that - first, if you wish to play around backstabs (which, with the blowpipe & invisibility, is certainly possible), you want two stabbers in your party. But, as the dex-based light weapon options are not that wide and it's gonna be hard to support two rogues, you can easily take both STR-light barb and DEX-light rogue. Also, rogue stays in the back and that's it - no way in hell you can make him a frontliner. Whereas the insectoid barb is not the best tank ever, but at least he's workable. Apart from the battlemages, there aren't a lot of the frontline characters in the game (who can actually do something in combat), y'know.

 

[Shadenuat]

When I wanted a backstab enemy was either too fast or had mega attack of opportunity or there were 15 of them; other times I could just kill mob without backstabbing. But maybe with invisibility spam...

And for front tanking... thing is, mages in game, if they invest in 2 schools, have 2 resists covered. So I'd say for tanking non-mage class Lizardman is a cooler choice.
get it
cooler
cause he is cold bl-
alright I'm terrible at this.

...and then for easy-to-support friendly tank I'd probably go for Heavy Weapons build with +15 resists Steel Shield, or 2 Concentration Crystal Shield (it has all party heal as special move), and best two-hander avaible (I liked Bane-axe, but I've missed on meteor secret so maybe that one is better). As Lizardman we want another +resistances perk and the second perk can be anything, probably, either weapon mastery or even another resistance perk (Demonborn).
And hoard all heavy armor. Only with 50+ armor you feel at least somewhat safe (in midgame, in endgame 100-120).

Also, what about Insectoid Knight? Maybe even dual wielding dex-evasion-armored knight. My ratling knight was p. tough, although damage wasn't great.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Blowpipe, don't forget the blowpipe. I dunno if it works against high-tier enemies, but against early game ones it is superb - looks like a 100% chance to put them into sleep. And they stay drowsy until you hit them (in the back, obviously).

You can still do tanking lizardman barb. He's not as good as the insectoid, but he's obviously superb against anything magical.

What are the stats of the endgame heavy weapons, btw? And heavy armors. Just curious, with all this restarting I can't get past the mid-game, lol.

As for the insectoid knight - I thought about that, but he's very, very slow to build up. His protection bonus starts crappy (when compared to the battlemage that, if he finds a certain secret, has that +10 prot enabled from lvl 2), and he need 2 points of armor, 3 points of light weapons (so he can use backbiter's special - self-healing tank is a good tank) and 5 points of dodge to start doing something (which is a freaking lot, all in all). Another problem is that his dual wielding really conflicts with his desire to wield shield(especially once they fix his knightly bonus). All in all, he's just inferior to the battlemages - he's not that much better of a tank, but his damage output is much lower. And that's the problem of all kinds of knight, tbh. I guess they're ok if you have alchemist in your party and need someone to throw the bombs (and the alchemist himself has better ways of dishing out damage), but that's pretty much it.

Or maybe you go for something like a maxed out STR&Dex lizardman knight and, despite getting dex buffs & evasive items, still invest into heavy. Probably progression is armor&heavy->armor->max out heavy->max out dodge at lvl 11->max out armour.

 

[Shadenuat]

For heavy weapons it's ~25-80. My 30 STR Agressive ratling barb with maxed skill shows 67-189 when equipped. Compared to that my 31 DEX knight with best dagger shows 36-99 or 25-66 if dual wielding (but recharge time for these weapons is 2 times faster). Some less, but have ignore armor trait. There is an ogre club that falls from any ogre enemy that does awesome damage but has -20 accuracy, a gimmicky weapon. Their unique attacks do even more damage, many ignore armor. And when it crits you can see hundreds of damage, basically killing enemy outright for 300+ damage. My tactic to lower boss healthpools was to charge up the mega 80-mana attack, run to boss, hit him for 20% hp, then run away, gulp mana pot and repeat.

In that way Heavies suit the nature of game (waltzing and kiting), while Light weapons do less damage but strike faster, which means they do enough damage if you do the Wizardry 8 trick - position yourself in a doorway and hit enemies 1 by 1 as they approach. Unless your mouse clickery is on StarCraft level I found using Heavies "friendlier".

Heavy armor, the midgame steel set gives +12 a piece, Crystal set gives +hp and +15 armor a piece, and Meteorite gives +18 a piece. I mixed Crystal & Meteorite so both my frontline chars had same HP and armor (280 hp, 100+ armor).

One of the problems of running heavy tanks and battle mages - you won't have enough armor to equip everyone.

Light armor - Mirror Set has +8 armor a piece and +5 resist all a piece. Others I generally didn't like. Some clothes are not very much worse than that.

 

[Zed]

Anthony Davis is streaming LoG2
http://www.twitch.tv/theroguezombie

 

[boobio]

Is it possible to attack with your characters using keyboard shortcuts, or do you always have to mouse click?

 

[Greatness]

It's a PC game, there's always a way.

I binded all of my spells/attacks to keys (w/ AHK) because using mouse for everything just feels horribly clunky. It's maybe a bit cheating though since I can instantly attack/cast with all 4 characters while tile dancing.

 

[Decado]

Just lost four hours to this. It is pretty goddamn slick.

I hope some other studios pick up the gauntlet, here. Bard's Tale 4, Inxile, fucking do it!

 

[Decado]

Up front I have a human knight specced heavy, and a mino barb also specced heavy. They can both take some decent damage. In the back I have my human alchemist (firearm) and my ratling rogue who is dual wielding. I felt the pinch of having no spell caster until the woods, where I found my first wand. That was tough. After that, though, things eased up.

Bombs are nuclear in this game. I can't imagine my alchemist making three for the price of one @ level 5, that is fucking nuts.

 

[Jack Dandy]

I'm having shitloads of fun with the game so far. Running human fighter + minotaur knight + ratling alchemist marksman + human firemage.

I love how open-ended it is this time around.
you can give up on one place, go to the other, solve things there, and then come back.
I love that sort of stuff.

Also better RPG mechanics and combat. I had to re-roll my party since I assumed it would be as straightforward as in the first game.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Oh wow.

When you kill the final boss he drops the Master Key (the one you see in the loading screen). That sucker OPENS EVERY LOCK IN THE GAME. :D

Gold vaults, anybody?

 

[Shadenuat]

At endgame I had 2 gold keys in inventory that I haven't used since stuff that was in vaults seemed useless. Well, take out one for Meteorite Helmet that I missed and didn't want to backtrack. What use is a bow or Dragonbreath firearm if you have nobody with the skill.

Would be cool if they allowed you to restart game with that key.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I'm using it to get those "match the set" achievements, I just got the Archmage one.

I didn't use my Gold Key(s) to open any of the doors in "The cache" which was a huge mistake, almost every door there had something awesome.

 

[Crooked Bee]

A couple of questions:

- Does Willpower influence spell damage, or only the amount of Energy points?

- Does Dexterity influence firearms damage?

- Which is better for front row in the long run, Protection or Evasion?

 

[Pope Amole II]

A couple of questions:

- Does Willpower influence spell damage, or only the amount of Energy points?

- Does Dexterity influence firearms damage?

- Which is better for front row in the long run, Protection or Evasion?

- Only amount of energy points and only the basic at that - it lies about influencing the growth per level.
- No. The only thing that can influence it is an aggressive talent.
- Protection. You can have both at a dex-based knight, though, just don't forget to go counter-intuitive and take heavy weapons at him.

 

[Shadenuat]

Some things are just not meant to be tanked, they have to be waltzed. Like Rat Boss, the moment you meet him he will probably 1-shot any character unless at full HP. Protection is to lower damage you get from trash mobs, minions and enemies like that. And you will still have to pot sometimes.

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

Popamole epic music health bar boss fights in mah Grimrock?!


Exploration shit is pretty good so far. I can't say the same for the new skill system... Oh well, we'll see...

 

[Aldebaran]

I am attempting a solo ratling farmer on normal. So far it seems to be working out quite well, I am speccing into light weapons to maximize the use of the early weapons, and I grabbed the ratling trait to give him random stat boosts at each level up.

How quickly does food drop off after the first boss, because my hamster-man power leveled to level five by the time I killed it, but I noticed that there was little food to be had after the turtle genocide.