Hearthstone

[Metro]

Ditto.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I dunno, the only decks in HS which take actual thought to play are Handlock, Miracle Rogue, Freeze Mage and Shaman. Granted, that's not saying much, but then saying those are popamole is a bit... redundant, I suppose? Might as well say the entirety of HS is popamole. Which would be true, I guess, but again, redundant.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Shaman doesn't require thought though. There have literally been bots who bring Shaman to legend.

Those bots are playing a specific list that is intentionally made to be as straightforward as possible, and is indeed quite mindless. Playing traditional midrange Shaman well is not so easy though, it tends to have multiple valid plays for each turn, and the macro-level decisionmaking isn't very obvious either. Hunter is much easier to play than Shaman (and currently much more effective as well), but you don't see bots using Hunter simply because they cannot into Secrets.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Pretty much, playing a deck well mostly comes down to experience, in some relatively rare cases it also involves some kind of combinatorial puzzle (as with TPS in Vintage, and sometimes with Miracle in HS). I mostly judge difficulty by how much time/games one needs in order to master a deck thoroughly. On that note, I first played Druid in Constructed roughly a week ago, took me from Rank 4 to Legend in around 50 games, and I really only just played stuff on curve, took the appropriate role in every matchup, and sometimes played around key cards where it seemed necessary. Doing the same with burst Shaman was a lot more involving, just from personal experience.

Although, to be fair, it can be hard to separate the difficulty of playing a deck from that deck's effectiveness. I honestly don't think "Midrange" Hunter is that easy, but it's so powerful and consistent that you can usually win even if you misplay - and I know this for a fact, as I routinely win games against Legend Hunters because of their catastrophic misplays. It's similar for Zoo, which is actually quite tricky to play optimally, but you are rarely punished for suboptimal play, so long as it isn't absolutely terrible.

 

[Metro]

You'll still buy some packs. So will Cowboy Derp. 'Huhuhuhhu game is stupid.' You have to play quite a bit to get to legendary never mind maintain a high rank in it.

 

[Absalom]

Or...

Just play arena.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

You'll still buy some packs. So will Cowboy Derp. 'Huhuhuhhu game is stupid.' You have to play quite a bit to get to legendary never mind maintain a high rank in it.

Gotta play before they release their shitty expansion and make the game terrible. Right now it's actually in a decent plays, only thing that needs adjustment is Undertaker and maybe one of Mad Scientist/Freezing Trap.

Also, why would I need to spend real money on packs when I have ~1500 gold saved from Arena?

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I'm just going to arena for a while in any event while the constructed metagame sorts itself out, not in a hurry anywhere. And if the new constructed plays like shit, I'll simply opt out.

 

[Aldebaran]

GvG would have to try very hard to make constructed worse than it currently is. Right now, against the two most popular classes, you essentially know if you have lost by turn one or two. Certain opening combinations are ridiculously powerful and can be pulled off quite consistently.

Undertaker is too good at one mana.

Also, in terms of RNG, thought steal already wins games. Crackle's damage, while a questionable decision on Blizzard's part, is a drop in the pond.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

A decent amount of games in HS are decided by opening hands + the first 2-3 cards drawn. This is a consequence of the game's combat mechanics, which favor the attacker, and generally lead to a snowballing of advantages - the better your board state is, the more likely you are to improve it. Games which are effectively over the moment opening hands are drawn mostly involve aggro decks, although they do happen in some other matchups as well. The issue with Undertaker, isn't so much that it's too good, but that it makes board states snowball even harder than they normally do. Sure, you can kill an Undertaker, but if you don't do it immediately after it's played, you may never get the chance again. I honestly don't recall winning a lot of games, with any deck, where I let an opposing Undertaker grow beyond 2/3.

 

[Phage]

Guess I am just very used to playing Druid and Shaman where even the unstoppable 3/4 terror Undertaker + a bunch of x/1 deathrattles gets blown the fuck out by an innvervated/wild growth'd swipe, or a lightning storm (well the storm leaves taker behind, but you can usually kill it next turn np)

I mean, it is true that with Aggro decks it's decided very early if one can stabilize against their board in time. That can be said about virtually every card game I've played though, not just hearthstone. Even in MTG a game with instantaneous interrupts at nearly every stage of the game whether or not aggro wins comes down to the speed of their hand and how quickly the other player can gain control.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

That's also part of the problem, you're spending 4 mana on a Swipe, or 5 on a Lightning Storm, in order to kill a 1 mana minion. You better fucking hope it clears their whole board, or you'll still be way behind on tempo. More specifically, seeing an Undertaker, and playing Wild Growth in hopes that you can get a good Swipe on the following turn is already a desperate maneuvre, as there are several plays a Hunter can make to deny good value to the Swipe. Similarly, if you're Lightning Storming a board with a 3/4 Undertaker, you will almost always lose the game - this is a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Druid and Shaman actually have good answers to Undertaker, but they all come earlier - Wrath, Innervated Keeper, Rockbiter/Lightning Bolt/Earthshock are much better at handling it.

 

[Aldebaran]

You conveniently fail to mention the flip side of thoughtsteal, it can steal game breaking class cards that Priest is not supposed to get a hold of. Overall, thoughtsteal draws you two good cards, since in constructed no one runs trash cards and only a very small pool of neutrals get used, with a decent chance of drawing you a class card (possibly game breaking), and a very small chance of drawing you a specific combo card (outside of your example, these are not common). Blade fury, deadly poison, and shield slam are about the only dead draws in the current meta. A rogue will only run one blade fury in general, and two deadly poisons, giving you a 10% chance for a dead draw against miracle (an already bad match up for a priest), but every other card aside from Southsea Deckhand is either useful or great. Against warrior, a brawl, Grom, Alextrasza, Ragnaros, or Sylvanas will probably seal a win for you unless you screw it up. Even something as simple as a weapon is ridiculous value for a priest as he has a number of tools at his disposal to counteract a weapon's only downside.

In addition, since the cards aren't taken from your deck thoughtsteal also increases the total number of cards you can use throughout the game by two, which is a significant advantage for a class that often aims to bring its opponent to fatigue. One of the worst parts about this card, though, is that the opponent has little way to predict which card was stolen. Half of the battle is knowing what your opponent can play by the tools his class has at its disposal, and being able to use this knowledge to plan ahead. This card significantly mitigates your ability to do that.

I am not claiming that Thoughtsteal is overpowered, but it absolutely can allow a Priest to win a game through RNG. Yes, I am still butthurt that a priest stole equality and what I am sure was my Harrison Jones when he had nothing on the board with 10 health left while I had Tyrion, Kel'thuzad, and a guardian out. I suspect that as classes become more distinct, and the neutral pool expands, thoughtsteal will cease to be usable.

As for your points on the undertaker, and t1/2 victories, I must also disagree. To be clear, obviously no game is decided until one player is dead, but with some opening hands, your hope of survival are so vanishingly small that it is probably a more efficient use of your time to concede. Yes, they can be stopped dead by early removal and Sludge Belcher, but most classes simply don't have the ability to deal with it efficiently, and stopping the undertaker isn't enough. The only early removal for a strong undertaker rogues have are backstab+something else or something else+eviscerate, druids have wrath or keeper, mages have frostbolt, hunters have essentially nothing that deals with a 2/3 except for traps or a stronger undertaker, warriors have fiery war axe or execute, warlocks have soulfire and mortal coil, priests have shadow word: pain, shamans have lightning storm/lightning bolt/rockbiter weapon/earth shock/wolves, and and paladins have the concede button. Of those, only the warrior, druid, and shaman have an efficient or consistent way of dealing with this one drop, but they still have to deal with everything else being played. It is not as if, ignoring their synergy with the undertaker, deathrattle cards are useless. In fact they are some of the highest value cards in their mana bracket. Even if you manage to deal with a strong hand, you still rely on passive defenses to control the board. Sludge Belcher is good, but if you have spent all your time removing their threats, then there is a reasonable chance that you have left them with a silence in hand. Once they have dealt enough damage to you, hunters can entirely circumvent the board due to their incredible damage reach, and warlocks can finish your passive defenses with a good soulfire/power overwhelming/doomguard which thanks to their hero power, they have a very good chance of drawing.

If you can't deal with the undertaker, then you have almost certainly lost, but even if you can deal with him, he has still in all likelihood put you behind. He is too good for a one drop, but maybe GvG will reduce his prominence so that we can see more diversity in the ladder.

 

[Metro]

Or...

Just play arena.

Or not play at all you filthy botter. GvG cards will be in arena, anyway.

 

[Phage]

You conveniently fail to mention the flip side of thoughtsteal, it can steal game breaking class cards that Priest is not supposed to get a hold of. Overall, thoughtsteal draws you two good cards, since in constructed no one runs trash cards and only a very small pool of neutrals get used, with a decent chance of drawing you a class card (possibly game breaking), and a very small chance of drawing you a specific combo card (outside of your example, these are not common). Blade fury, deadly poison, and shield slam are about the only dead draws in the current meta. A rogue will only run one blade fury in general, and two deadly poisons, giving you a 10% chance for a dead draw against miracle (an already bad match up for a priest), but every other card aside from Southsea Deckhand is either useful or great. Against warrior, a brawl, Grom, Alextrasza, Ragnaros, or Sylvanas will probably seal a win for you unless you screw it up. Even something as simple as a weapon is ridiculous value for a priest as he has a number of tools at his disposal to counteract a weapon's only downside.

In addition, since the cards aren't taken from your deck thoughtsteal also increases the total number of cards you can use throughout the game by two, which is a significant advantage for a class that often aims to bring its opponent to fatigue. One of the worst parts about this card, though, is that the opponent has little way to predict which card was stolen. Half of the battle is knowing what your opponent can play by the tools his class has at its disposal, and being able to use this knowledge to plan ahead. This card significantly mitigates your ability to do that.

What are these gamebreakingly overpowered class cards if priest obtains them? I left them out of the equation because I cannot really think of any that are too entirely degenerate. You mention Brawl and Grommash, but how is that gamebreaking at all against control warrior? (the only warrior deck that should be running them) They don't flood the board for Brawl to be any better than their own removal spells, and Warrior has plenty of ways to handle a Garrosh.

As for all of the neutral legendaries you mentioned, it's zero sum. If Thoughtsteal was simply an arcane intellect, the priest could have drawn their own neutral legendaries. The bigger problem is that even if, say you thoughtsteal a legend, 99% of the time unless your opponent is an idiot, the card will perform worse in your deck than in your opponent's.

My entire point is that thoughtsteal really isn't a particularly amazing card. There have been countless discussions of this on competitive forums for the game, and the general concensus is that slow priest decks run it because it does provide enough potential card advantage to be worth it, but Arcane Intellect (the easiest card to compare it to) is superior in virtually every circumstance.

And yes - I did mention Fatigue, which is the one very good aspect of the card in long-drawn out control matches.


tl;dr our entire discussion is pointless and zero sum for both sides.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

If I was a spiteful person, I'd go back a year in this thread and quote the places Cowboy Moment said the game sucked and he'd likely lose interest quick. But I am a graceful person, so I won't.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

If I was a spiteful person, I'd go back a year in this thread and quote the places Cowboy Moment said the game sucked and he'd likely lose interest quick. But I am a graceful person, so I won't.

Sorry to say, but you're late to that party bro, I've changed that opinion to "quite fun while doing other stuff, boring if focused on exclusively" shortly afterwards. Which I stand by, and that's how I play the game still. Also, this was in like, June, and not a year ago.

Glad to hear you pay so much attention to my opinions, though, bros like you are the reason I put so much effort into my posts.

 

[Metro]

They just dumped most of the remaining cards in the set on their Facebook (ugh) page. Chances are it'll go live next Tuesday (if not sooner). And for Cowboy Lock... as if Handlock couldn't get any more derpy:

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Nobody is going to play that shit in Handlock you fucking imbecile.

The newly revealed cards are much less OLOLO RANDOM than what we've gotten thus far, and some even have pretty neat mechanics. Bolvar, for instance, is a good example of card design that only makes sense in a digital game, and is a cool idea. Pity his shitty stats make him unplayable. On a similar note, the Mage Legendary is cool as well, pity it's quite bad beyond the "when you draw this" effect.

 

[Metro]

So much rage.

 

[Grinolf]

I don't even remember handlock playing any demons aside from Jaraxxus. And playing it with Jaraxxus would most likely be too much.

Bolvar, for instance, is a good example of card design that only makes sense in a digital game, and is a cool idea. Pity his shitty stats make him unplayable.

4-7 isn't a shitty stats. And with Paladin hero ability it shouldn't be hard to make him that way. So it is far from unplayable, but it is hard for me to say how good he really is. Definitely at least average one.
So far I liked this one the most:

Probably going to be one of the top tier legendaries. And also should gove Priest some chance against Handlock with their Twilight Drakes.

 

[Grinolf]

Vol'Jin
Constructed: It's okay. Definitely not a "top-tier legendary". He's situational since he needs to swap with something with roughly 5+ health to be great. Considering the mech decks are gearing up to be aggro centric, I don't think there will be that many targets for him to truly shine.
Arena: Here is where he's good. There will almost always be a good target to swap with when you're at 5-6 mana.

He is exactly what Priests needs to easily deal with the most annoying targets they always strugle to deal (with the exception of Cairne). And I don't think there ever would be a problem to find at least 5 HP target. For both of these reasons I think all Priests would run him.

Warrior and Rogue legendaries also look very strong but they don't synergy as well with the current warrior on rogue decks, so there should be a new decks in order to utilize their full potential.

 

[Metro]

Only two class legendaries I see myself crafting are Juggernaut and Gallywix. Neutral probably just Sneed's and Gazlowe.

 

[Grinolf]

Volgin's a dead card against aggro decks, which will be a solid portion of the metagame since there are many aggressively costed mech cards and synergies. Honestly, if you draw that thing versus Zoo or FaceHunter or any mech aggro deck that pops up, it's a waste of mana. It's going to be a meta call, which makes it not a top-tier must include kind of card.

There are some legendaries that are good against Face Hunter or Zoo? Can't name any. And no, Juggernaut and Gallywinx aren't good against them also. Also Priest already has tools to deal with aggro consistently.

Control warrior is absolutely loving the idea of having an inevitable 10 damage while they jerk off with shield blocks and 200 removal spells.

Control Warriors already relly on Alexstrasza for a free Pyroblast. And Alexstrasza and Juggernaut don't look like going work well together. So it or should be saved until Alexstrasza is played or, more realistically swapped with her in the deck altogether.

 

[Metro]

Datamining reveals you get three free GvG packs and a free Arena entry if you play/log on during the 'launch event' (which will probably last several weeks like Naxx). But yeah, once I get around 90% of the GvG commons, rares, and epics I'll probably go back to buying/opening the vanilla packs. Better legendaries there I could actually use versus mediocre stuff like this:

Still... it's a good thing I don't have to sweat amassing all the GvG legendaries when there's still a good half dozen or so I can use from vanilla. I can't see any of these being good short of some wacky specific gimmick deck.