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Made a new Gamasutra article: The danger of letting the gaming industry curate its own history

Farage

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good article bro

One cool thing to point out, is that for one to be an enthusiast, he needs, above all, spare time to play all these games.
And most of the times, which is actually my case, i don't really know which ones to play first or which ones to avoid. Perhaps have something to do with adaptation of the digital media.
Or perhaps is the fact that everyone that knows about these "old gems" have this really annoying attitude about it.
Its kinda tough to ask for people to know about deep old stuff, if you're not really willing to share information about it in the first place... which has happened to me before.
Its like, people care so much about their ego and personal experience, that they won't explain it, they'll keep it for themselves and mock you about it.

but yeah, good article!
 
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Anita Saarkesian is much more important to gaming than this Bertha Wilhelms or however you spell it.

I've seen journos making food analogies unironically, as if to drive the "consumism of games" point home. "Skyrim is a big meal best enjoyed in small bites", etc. I'm not sure why but that shit drives me crazy.
 

FeelTheRads

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Don't be sarcastic, bro, Anita was there from the beginning.

VdM30Mr.jpg
 
Unwanted

a Goat

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The funny thing is when the gaming industry practices what it preaches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization:_Beyond_Earth#Development

In designing the tech web, the Beyond Earth team began by going to the Wikipedia article on Alpha Centauri

Can't actually play it I guess, it's too outdated
And we've seen how it turned out. Bland at best.
Also:
That was not a casual audience. Those were students of a game design school, people who decided to bet their future on gaming.
They may have not been interested in making game like Skyrim though, sometimes there's just no reason to try older games.

Obviously if they wanted to make totally-not-skyrim they should play all main TES games and few relatively failed games that tried to emulate them - like Kingdoms of Amalur, then some sidekicks like Diablo, few roguelikes, FPP games without tons of guns(Arx Fatalis, Dark Messiah, Thief, Hexen even Dying Light) and a lot more. I don't necessarily mean beating them, just playing. Obviously it would be good if you've beaten some of them or at least got to the endgame because you're making RPG, you have to understand how to balance endgame and it's easiest to learn on your predecessors failures.

You need to do research before doing so because otherwise it ends up exactly like Beyond Earth, spiritual successor or clone that doesn't have the spirit.
 
Last edited:

JoKa

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The funny thing is when the gaming industry practices what it preaches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization:_Beyond_Earth#Development

In designing the tech web, the Beyond Earth team began by going to the Wikipedia article on Alpha Centauri

Can't actually play it I guess, it's too outdated
This is pretty misleading. Here's what they actually did (or said they did): "That's where the reading list came in. The first thing we did was go on Wikipedia to the Alpha Centauri webpage, and it has the books that Brian Reynolds and his team read, so we read those, and that was our starting point. And we read a lot more, and got a survey of all the weird things we could do and the weird places we could go, and the tech web really reflects that." In other words, they didn't go to Wikipedia in lieu of playing Alpha Centauri, they went there to get at the game's "Appendix N." That is entirely the right approach: you don't imitate a derivative work, you go to the font and drink deeply.

That said, it is a pretty hilarious quote when snipped. :)

The thing is: in the manual for SMAC they stated each and every one of their bigger influences. So no need to go to Wikipedia for that, FFS.
 

Outlander

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Don't be sarcastic, bro, Anita was there from the beginning.

VdM30Mr.jpg

:lol:

Anyway, time for:

grammar-nazi-wikipedia-1854844.jpeg


Some corrections:

where did that prejudice came from? -> where did that prejudice come from?

this is my new X, is not as good as' -> this is my new X, it's not as good as

compare them and point the improvements -> compare them and point out the improvements

historical context they were made -> historical context they were made in

will cry for the lost of style -> will cry for the loss of style

Is no coincidence that -> It's no coincidence that

more often that not -> more often than not

as long as they can be turned -> as long as it can be turned

a Industry Icon award -> an Industry Icon award

influential series of all times -> influential series of all time

game made by the women -> game made by the woman

would be a unspeakable sin -> would be an unspeakable sin

Software just require you to -> Software just requires you to

Is not like they are art -> It's not like they are art

71930e9ea00a94c6a695b59e1441fc3cf451d3ab35a5c22ea74e69eb8b64a395.jpg


Nice article, felipepepe :salute:

In my opinion all this shit you mention happens simply because videogaming is a form of media primarily consumed by kids and teens and they simply don't care about the old games, why would they? The industry itself and 'journalists' go with that flow of course. And these kids are today the 20-something young men now trying to enter the industry. Videogames are still a fairly new form of 'entertainment', starting properly in the 80s, I would love to know what the 'book-fags' thought when films started to become popular for the first time :)
 

:Flash:

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Nice article, felipepepe.
But is it really surprising that your popamole game students don't want to play old games, when even on the Codex it is common practice to recommend Lazarus when someone wants to play Ultima V?

I sometimes wonder why I did not have these problems when I stumbled upon Ultima IV by accident in 2001. I was immediately hooked. Perhaps it is because of my upbringing. I practically grew up in a Museum, our Encyclopedia was from 1906, and the first Movie I ever saw in a cinema was, incidentally, City Lights.
 

Archibald

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The funny thing is when the gaming industry practices what it preaches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization:_Beyond_Earth#Development

In designing the tech web, the Beyond Earth team began by going to the Wikipedia article on Alpha Centauri

Can't actually play it I guess, it's too outdated
This is pretty misleading. Here's what they actually did (or said they did): "That's where the reading list came in. The first thing we did was go on Wikipedia to the Alpha Centauri webpage, and it has the books that Brian Reynolds and his team read, so we read those, and that was our starting point. And we read a lot more, and got a survey of all the weird things we could do and the weird places we could go, and the tech web really reflects that." In other words, they didn't go to Wikipedia in lieu of playing Alpha Centauri, they went there to get at the game's "Appendix N." That is entirely the right approach: you don't imitate a derivative work, you go to the font and drink deeply.

That said, it is a pretty hilarious quote when snipped. :)

The thing is: in the manual for SMAC they stated each and every one of their bigger influences. So no need to go to Wikipedia for that, FFS.

Manual? Aren't they "outdated" too and thats why we are getting tutorials on how to fucking click right mouse button to issue a command?
 

MRY

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I loved when manuals had this stuff -- Star Control II had a great one. (Or was it Star Control I; I can't remember.)
 

Gregz

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I enjoy shaking my cane at the young and ignorant as much as anyone, and I agree that: (1) most remakes are terrible; (2) there are many old games that remain the pinnacle of particular still-relevant techniques; and (3) most game reviewers are not comparable in experience, education, or intellect to most film or literary critics. But I still find myself somewhat in disagreement with the tenor of the piece, and with its particular examples.

First, if someone said, "Your children are being sent into a Vault and they can only bring 1,001 computer games with them," I am 100% certain I would not include King's Quest. If someone said, "And their job in the Vault would be to maintain a history of computer games," I'm still not sure I'd include King's Quest. It is certainly historically significant and a technical achievement, given the constraints they faced. But it's not a good game, and its only remaining significance is that it set up certain conventions still employed today. Moreover, as far as I can tell, the factual premise of your argument on this score is overstated [edited to make my own point less overstated]. Maybe your Google and mine work differently (I know they involve our past searches), but when I limited a Google search to no later than 2013 and search for "Roberta Williams" (I assume the "Willians" typo was just in the article, not in your search), I get innumerable articles about her, calling her legendary, etc., etc. There are some other Roberta Williamses that come up, too, but I'm not sure that proves anything. It's true there aren't articles on IGN or whatever, but how many major film critics wrote articles about Charlie Chaplin in a given year in the past decade? What would be the reason for a non-specialist site to write a piece about Roberta Williams from 2000 to 2014? So, of course, the (many) articles about her historic achievements appear on gaming history sites or adventure game sites, rather than sites devoted to addressing current games.

Second, I think you (significantly) overestimate the extent to which non-specialists are aware of classic works. I mean, how many pop-film critics do you think have actually seen City Lights? How many could name the writer on Metropolis? Or even, say, the writer of more recent, critically acclaimed Scent of a Woman? (Itself a remake of an Italian film, Scent of a Woman won the Oscar for Best Actor and received Oscar nominations for Best Director, Best Picture, and Best Adapted Screenplay; it also won Golden Globe Awards for Best Adapted Screenplay, Best Actor and Best Motion Picture – Drama. So much for remakes being scorned by critics. . . .) Movies are short and can be consumed with almost no engagement. To meaningfully interact with 1,001 computer games is practically the work of a lifetime; 1,001 films would be doable in a year. Yet, even still, I am skeptical that many major film commentators -- whether we're talking about IGN or Extra! or The New Republic -- have actually seen a third of the AFI super-duper-important movies. The kind of knowledge you expect of game critics is attainable, but not attained, in other fields of endeavor; it may not be practically attainable at all with computer games. Given that, it seems odd to single out those critics for scorn.

Third, assuming this link accurately reflects the 1,001 computer games, the list seems to run completely contrary to your point: it's chock full of old games, including really obscure ones, and also including lots of interactive fiction. The list proves not that the vastness of the authors' ignorance but the vastness of the body of games that plausibly could be put on such a list. (There is clearly an anti-Sierra bias, as only GK2 makes the list. But lots of other point-and-clicks do, including almost all of the Lucas Arts collection.) Obviously there's plenty of idiocy on the list too, but I don't think it proves your point: a list that includes Infocom, Revolution, and Lucas Arts games but not King's Quest shows not ignorance or presentist bias but hatred of Sierra's conventions.)

Fourth, I think you underestimate how hard it is to play older games, even if you remove technological impediments like OS compatability. That is especially true with respect to computer (rather than console) games. If nothing else, they assume fluency with a mode of interaction (a vast number of keyboard shortcuts) that is alien to anyone under the age of 30. There was a narrow swath of time when (1) people had personal computers and (2) those personal computers expected you to memorize keyboard shortcuts. I still remember the little keyboard overlays that were shipped for things like word processing software. For most people, a game like Descent: Freespace -- which I consider fantastic -- has inscrutable controls. And god forbid you expect them to have a joystick! In that way, I believe that remakes of games are (often) more analogous to the remaking of a foreign film (like Scent of a Woman) than they are like remaking a pop film (like Spider-Man). Much of what is being modified is the work's mechanical "accessibility."

Finally, I think the analogy is inapt because to the extent there is some body of older games analogous to movies such as City Lights, I disagree that King's Quest or Daggerfall or Arena would fall within that body. Wikipedia lists 601 films released the same year as City Lights. Those, presumably, are the 601 films notable enough to get a Wikipedia entry, so perhaps there are many more. How many of those would you expect a film reviewer to have seen? How many have you heard of? Looking just at the list of American films, there's only one ("The Public Enemy") that I have any confidence I'd heard of before. Many others are based on books I've read, but I'm not sure I heard of the movie. And there are many more movies in 1930, 1929, etc., etc.

Wikipedia lists 349 games for the year King's Quest I came out. The same year, the following other games were also released: Mario Bros.; Dragon's Lair; Lode Runner; M.U.L.E.; Nobunaga's Ambition; Planetfall (which made the 1,001 list); Spy Hunter; the Star Wars arcade game; and Ultima III. All of those, in my opinion, are either historically more important than KQI or better or both.

Wikipedia lists 598 games as coming out the same year as Daggerfall. Many are more important and in my opinion better than Daggerfall. Even if you restrict it to RPGs, broadly defined, there's the first Diablo and the first Pokemon games. Of those, I'd take Daggerfall, but there's no question it's the least important of the bunch.

My point isn't that no one should bother with King's Quest or Daggerfall, only that it seems unreasonable to expect people to be familiar with them. There are so many games (indeed, so many good games), and they take so much time to fully enjoy, that "canonical games" and "games I played and enjoyed as a kid" bleed into each other.
None of this is to say that game reviewers are good at their craft, or have the experience and education necessary to give informed judgments. Only that I think you're maybe being a little too hard on them.

[Further Edit]

It hopfully goes without saying that people like you and the CRPG Addict are providing an invaluable service. I think it is important that some people study these things and publish their studies, and like most Codexers, I'm a direct beneficiary of your hard work and knowledge. It's just that I'm not sure everyone else should be expected to do the same thing.

That might be the single best post I've read in a year. :obviously: :salute:

I hope you find time to contribute here more often.

I feel the same way Felipe does, but you did an outstanding job of underscoring the fundamental historical and technical factors which Felipe is largely ignoring.
 

Bitcher1

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But Alpha Centauri is a game their own company developed. Even if they weren't actually going to play the game to get at that information, you'd think they have access to some kind of design documentation detailing all this stuff and more.

That's what scares me the most about the attitude described by felipe's article. Companies that gleefully immolate their own institutional memory, and thus make themselves unrecognizable to their fans within years.

Think that's bad? My relative works at CD Projekt and she (that's right, working on that rape simulator was her dream, talk about internalized misogyny) told me the staff had to start TW3's development by relearning basic stuff, because the majority of devs working on TW2 got the boot right after finishing it. Apparently it involved a lot of trial and error (partly to blame for the delays) and was nearly on the level of reverse-engineering the previous entries to figure out how certain features were implemented. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they consulted Wiki in the process.
So yeah, I think, on the whole, the nature of the industry, with its emphasis on high burnrates, exploiting the young workforce, and generating hype (of which INNOVASHUN is a big part, whether real or fake it doesn't matter as long as the masses buy it) is not really conducive to respecting the past. The other media have the advantage of a greater emphasis on authorship, even film outside maybe of Hollywood blockbusters (which resemble games more and more, probably not coincidentally), and a good author tends to be conscious of his inspirations and influences and honor them (one example would be George Lucas and Coppola co-funding and producing a late Kurosawa picture). In gaming, "blockbusters" are the norm, it's them that set the pace for the whole industry, both commercially and critically, with only an occasional indie managing to make the waves. Due to massive scope of such productions, the authorship tends to become diluted in the process and there remains nobody to pay tribute to history. There are few notable creative leads who don't originate from the 90's or even earlier, at least I personally don't see many emerging voices that could command some authority with the public (and I'm not talking about the 'megaphones' here). The execs and marketing guys certainly don't care about what came before beyond cheap name recognition and making their product seem familiar to the customers. It's corporate practices and politics that define the perception of gaming, and they have no interest in making the old stuff seem like a viable alternative to the new.
 

tuluse

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Think that's bad? My relative works at CD Projekt and she (that's right, working on that rape simulator was her dream, talk about internalized misogyny) told me the staff had to start TW3's development by relearning basic stuff, because the majority of devs working on TW2 got the boot right after finishing it. Apparently it involved a lot of trial and error (partly to blame for the delays) and was nearly on the level of reverse-engineering the previous entries to figure out how certain features were implemented. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they consulted Wiki in the process.
Well I guess now we know why W3 looks like a cargo cult Skyrim clone.
 

Johannes

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Manual? Aren't they "outdated" too and thats why we are getting tutorials on how to fucking click right mouse button to issue a command?

Manuals are outdated though, they don't have much use other than being nice to look at while on the toilet. Forced tutorials are a different matter.
Bullshit. They can very well be integral to playing a game whether you read them in print or pdf form, not much has changed in that respect except player expectations on manuals. Or is that supposed to be sarcasm?
 

Damned Registrations

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I meant printed ones. You can fit a hundred times worth of content into the game itself.
Civilization is pretty much the only example of modern manuals done right. And shockingly, it doesn't force a tutorial on you either.

(Disclaimer: Have not played more recently than Civ 4)
 

Tigranes

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But Alpha Centauri is a game their own company developed. Even if they weren't actually going to play the game to get at that information, you'd think they have access to some kind of design documentation detailing all this stuff and more.

That's what scares me the most about the attitude described by felipe's article. Companies that gleefully immolate their own institutional memory, and thus make themselves unrecognizable to their fans within years.

Think that's bad? My relative works at CD Projekt and she (that's right, working on that rape simulator was her dream, talk about internalized misogyny) told me the staff had to start TW3's development by relearning basic stuff, because the majority of devs working on TW2 got the boot right after finishing it. Apparently it involved a lot of trial and error (partly to blame for the delays) and was nearly on the level of reverse-engineering the previous entries to figure out how certain features were implemented. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they consulted Wiki in the process.
So yeah, I think, on the whole, the nature of the industry, with its emphasis on high burnrates, exploiting the young workforce, and generating hype (of which INNOVASHUN is a big part, whether real or fake it doesn't matter as long as the masses buy it) is not really conducive to respecting the past. The other media have the advantage of a greater emphasis on authorship, even film outside maybe of Hollywood blockbusters (which resemble games more and more, probably not coincidentally), and a good author tends to be conscious of his inspirations and influences and honor them (one example would be George Lucas and Coppola co-funding and producing a late Kurosawa picture). In gaming, "blockbusters" are the norm, it's them that set the pace for the whole industry, both commercially and critically, with only an occasional indie managing to make the waves. Due to massive scope of such productions, the authorship tends to become diluted in the process and there remains nobody to pay tribute to history. There are few notable creative leads who don't originate from the 90's or even earlier, at least I personally don't see many emerging voices that could command some authority with the public (and I'm not talking about the 'megaphones' here). The execs and marketing guys certainly don't care about what came before beyond cheap name recognition and making their product seem familiar to the customers. It's corporate practices and politics that define the perception of gaming, and they have no interest in making the old stuff seem like a viable alternative to the new.

If true that's depressing, since you'd think CD Projekt, unlike American studios, don't have as many competitors to lose talent to. The only other big reasons that would come to mind are that the workers were burned out and exited the industry, or CD Projekt had to cut a lot of staff after release to keep costs down before hiring again. Both factors are endemic in the US, and this kind of shitty long-term job security is another reason why there's not much history in the industry.
 

agris

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Sorry for the side-comment, but A-fucking-plus for the Godspeed references on page 2!
 

felipepepe

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The real achievement here is to be twitted by @cucNotes, the guy that a lot of game researches follow. His tweet got 55 retweets. O.o
 

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