Interview Feargus opens mouth, rant against MMORPGs spills out

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Tags: Feargus Urquhart; Obsidian Entertainment

In a promotional piece for an upcoming interview with Feargus Urquhart, <a href="http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=164880">ComputerAndVideogames.com</a> has a small quip from <a href="http://www.obsidianent.com">Obsidian Entertainment</a>'s CEO that points out "MMORPGs could negatively impact the popularity of the RPG genre":<blockquote>"For instance," Urquhart explained in an interview to be published on CVG shortly, "it used to be fine to make an RPG that was just wandering around and hacking things up with the player having very little effect on the world around them. Why play that game now if you could just play a MMO?"</blockquote>A couple of reasons could be that a single-player RPG is comparatively cheaper, doesn't have monthly fees, server maintenance schedules and griefers.
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<blockquote>He believes it's key that <b>developers of non-MMO RPGs look closely at what the genre offers over MMORPGs</b> to ensure the RPG genre doesn't lose out to the increasingly popular massively multiplayer online world.</blockquote>Hmm. Gameplay depth vs. money. It's going to be a tough decision over which developers should be focusing on.
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I know Feargus has his heart in the right place but developers are more likely to have World of Warcraft as a case study than any good singleplayer CRPG.
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Thanks, <b>stargelman</b>!

 

[Hazelnut]

You forgot to link the related /. discussion, see this thread I posted earlier today.

Thanks, me!

 

[jiujitsu]

I'm just glad there's new news. News about Feargles no less!

Anyway, I agree MMOs are the devil. I played WoW for a few months. It was incredibly fun and if you find a good guild that you become real friends with then you basically don't have to leave your computer chair. All the happiness and fulfillment is right there in the game.

I've been missing WoW lately. Mostly, I miss the friends I made. It depresses me that I can't play with them anymore. Really, friends made in game is what makes an MMO so addicting. Enemies made in game makes it incredibly addicting.

To me, the monetary price was worth it. Losing my dignity and have absolutely no real life was not so worth it. Though, if my parents didn't thwart my fun I'd probably still be playing the game.

I guess I'm trying to say that MMORPGs are too addicting to exist. They are evil evil games designed to suck you in and never let you go so they can take all your monies. Good things I gave away my account and threw away my disks. Otherwise I'd probably set it up and pay for this month so I could play with my old guild for a couple days before I go back to my Marine Corps duties. It's like smoking. You never really become not addicted even when you quit.

 

[United Nations]

I'm just glad there's new news. News about Feargles no less!

Anyway, I agree MMOs are the devil. I played WoW for a few months. It was incredibly fun and if you find a good guild that you become real friends with then you basically don't have to leave your computer chair. All the happiness and fulfillment is right there in the game.

I've been missing WoW lately. Mostly, I miss the friends I made. It depresses me that I can't play with them anymore. Really, friends made in game is what makes an MMO so addicting. Enemies made in game makes it incredibly addicting.

To me, the monetary price was worth it. Losing my dignity and have absolutely no real life was not so worth it. Though, if my parents didn't thwart my fun I'd probably still be playing the game.

I guess I'm trying to say that MMORPGs are too addicting to exist. They are evil evil games designed to suck you in and never let you go so they can take all your monies. Good things I gave away my account and threw away my disks. Otherwise I'd probably set it up and pay for this month so I could play with my old guild for a couple days before I go back to my Marine Corps duties. It's like smoking. You never really become not addicted even when you quit.

I couldn't agree more. I quit this past fall for good, but WoW offered me the best and worst gaming experience I've ever had. Being the first MMO I ever got my hands on, I was hooked within five minutes of entering the game world. I had absolutely no idea what the hell I was doing leveling my first character, and was blown away by how huge Azeroth seemed. The game is great fun for the first 3 to 6 months, then starts to suck when you have experienced everything and real life is going down the shitter. I grew sick of it for a while after I quit, but now all the fond memories are starting to come back. Nevertheless, I would not dare to touch WoW ever again, until the next epic MMO comes along to take its crown.

 

[Spazmo]

I kind of dislike saying this but I... I agree with Feargus, at least in theory. In practise, however, we still get games like Dungeon Siege and Titan Quest made, and even if we didn't, developers overwhelmingly choose to make MMOs instead of single player games. Even the RPGs we do get are somehow watered down for mass appeal (Mass Appeal, incidentally, is the follow up to BioWare's Mass Effect) as we've discussed many times before. Basically, Feargus is saying how MMOs should have affected the market, but didn't.

 

[Eclecticist]

Obviously what Feargus is saying is sound, and it will resonate with all of the single-player cRPG fans who find MMORPGs tacky and stale (such as myself). But there's no real point saying it, other than to raise his Media Score. It's too general a statement.

 

[DOS-fanboy]

Single player RPGs are what game developers code up while waiting for their griffon ride to end in World of Warcraft.

 

[sabishii]

"For instance," Urquhart explained in an interview to be published on CVG shortly, "it used to be fine to make an RPG that was just wandering around and hacking things up with the player having very little effect on the world around them. Why play that game now if you could just play a MMO?"

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

WoW is retarded. I played for about 2 weeks and I've had enough. It was too bright and shiny and high magic for my taste. Also, online games aren't really my cup of tea.

Since so many people play MMO's and pay the monthly charge, why shouldn't devs shell out a shit load of them? It's not like they care who the target audience is as long as they sell.

 

[Pegultagol]

Single player RPGs are now endangered species, whereas MMORPGs are likely a dime a dozen and fully domesticated to the millions of gamers' palates. I think addictive gameplay is the hallmark of good gameplay design of any game, and I think partly achieved here by the constant updates and content or features 'expansion'. The social aspects of gameplay cannot be replaced by hard coded static NPCs and the ambient immersion I think is simply unrivaled and cannot be emulated by single player RPGs. Even with the grind that many people complain, every log in might present an opportunity for memorable experiences in the context of more dynamic world. You might as well spend over 200 dollars a year having a great gameplay experience and community based fun than trying out an equivalent worth of crappy unsupported games and crying about it on RPGCodex, if that said game is good enough to last that long. I heard some MMORPG companies like NCSoft offers universal game pass that allow gamers to play any multitude of their online games based on the same monthly fee. So it is not really about money or value anymore.

I have not played any MMORPGs so I am not so sure but I think some of the advantages that single player RPGs present are that it offers perceived more value per dollar, possibility of more diverse user created content, ability to play it at your own pace, replayability beyond the product's refresh cycle, small peace of mind that you will not catch yourself LARPing, less compulsive design that is not so level oriented or repetitive, appreciating the altruistic valor on the part of developers that they would work for less to achieve their single player ways, etc. It is not so much what the genre offers OVER MMOs as how it differentiates FROM it. From business perspective, one alternative may be the episodic release of RPG in segments.

But for me I heard enough that I know my life would be over the moment I touch WoW. I would play it only if I feel that there is really nothing to live for and am prepared to die from dehydration.

 

[The_Pope]

it used to be fine to make an RPG that was just wandering around and hacking things up with the player having very little effect on the world around them. Why play that game now if you could just play a MMO?

Hopefully this means people will stop making those worthless turds.

 

[United Nations]

From business perspective, one alternative may be the episodic release of RPG in segments.

Oblivion: Episode 1...Episode 2...Episode 3...that would be a terrible idea! I love single player RPG's, much more than MMO's. Sure, I liked WoW, but after playing one MMORPG, they're all the same. I never play online games much myself, aside from WoW and a bit of Diablo II/Titan Quest. I cringe at the thought of paying a monthly fee for yet another game, unless of course the game will have something extremely unique and exciting to offer. All newer MMO's, such as GW, DDO, VG, LOTRO, etc. are all basically carbon copies of one another, and are incredible rip-offs (except for GW :wink: ).

To answer the question of what a SP RPG has to offer over an MMO, it's and immersion and depth. I've never experienced anything resembling immersion in an MMO, since the entire screen is taken up by an obscenely huge interface, which is even further tainted by leet speak infested chat channels. MMOG's are nothing more than entertaining 3D chats with some mild roleplaying thrown in for good measure. The only unique MMORPG's on the horizon are AOC and Darkfall, with the latter being vaporware.

 

[Hazelnut]

I'm just glad there's new news. News about Feargles no less!

Anyway, I agree MMOs are the devil. I played WoW for a few months. It was incredibly fun and if you find a good guild that you become real friends with then you basically don't have to leave your computer chair. All the happiness and fulfillment is right there in the game.

I've been missing WoW lately. Mostly, I miss the friends I made. It depresses me that I can't play with them anymore. Really, friends made in game is what makes an MMO so addicting. Enemies made in game makes it incredibly addicting.

To me, the monetary price was worth it. Losing my dignity and have absolutely no real life was not so worth it. Though, if my parents didn't thwart my fun I'd probably still be playing the game.

I guess I'm trying to say that MMORPGs are too addicting to exist. They are evil evil games designed to suck you in and never let you go so they can take all your monies. Good things I gave away my account and threw away my disks. Otherwise I'd probably set it up and pay for this month so I could play with my old guild for a couple days before I go back to my Marine Corps duties. It's like smoking. You never really become not addicted even when you quit.

I couldn't agree more. I quit this past fall for good, but WoW offered me the best and worst gaming experience I've ever had. Being the first MMO I ever got my hands on, I was hooked within five minutes of entering the game world. I had absolutely no idea what the hell I was doing leveling my first character, and was blown away by how huge Azeroth seemed. The game is great fun for the first 3 to 6 months, then starts to suck when you have experienced everything and real life is going down the shitter. I grew sick of it for a while after I quit, but now all the fond memories are starting to come back. Nevertheless, I would not dare to touch WoW ever again, until the next epic MMO comes along to take its crown.

I've yet to play any MMOG. The main reason is my experience with a Diku MUD when I was 19 and in Halls at Uni - it completely sucked me in for a fortnight! Interestingly (or not) this was when I first created and used my online handle, Hazelnut, which I've been using ever since. Anyway, by the end of the two weeks after being introduced to it, I was sleeping all day, missing all lectures, and then spending the evening either in the bar or sports, then going to the hall computer terminal room and logging into the MUD until around 7-8am before heading off to bed. Kinda fun, but completely ludicrous - I simply couldn't moderate myself so I had to say goodbye to all my online friends and quit completely. When MMOGs first appeared I knew what would happen if I jumped in, and decided I wasn't courting that addiction again. The other reason was my seriously limited funds - I'd rather the kids got to go to dance class or whatever than I had a MMOG subscription. So, my online gaming experiences are limited to the Diablos, Quake 2, UT and more recently DOD:S for a couple of months when it came out.

I kind of dislike saying this but I... I agree with Feargus, at least in theory. In practise, however, we still get games like Dungeon Siege and Titan Quest made, and even if we didn't, developers overwhelmingly choose to make MMOs instead of single player games. Even the RPGs we do get are somehow watered down for mass appeal (Mass Appeal, incidentally, is the follow up to BioWare's Mass Effect) as we've discussed many times before. Basically, Feargus is saying how MMOs should have affected the market, but didn't.

I agree with your agreement Spazmo. I got a feeling when reading Feargus' words, which may be completely ridiculous but I'll share nevertheless. The feeling was kinda like he/Obsidan was trying to subtly change what the masses looked for in a single player RPG. I mean, it obviously isn't the way he implies it is, but by comparing very simply with MMOGs and highlighting what you can get from a single player RPG that you can't from a MMOG - he's maybe trying to create some demand.

Just a thought, and badly expressed probably. *shrug*

 

[Ladonna]

I agree with your last bit Hazelnut, which is why everyone here should be posting it on various fora to get peoples attention.

 

[Section8]

That's an utterly pointless fluff piece. If he wanted his argument to bear any weight, he wouldn't use vague references to something none of us have played as his sole example.

That, and his only real point is "we want the player to feel like they're part of the world" which is incredibly general in itself, though I can't help but think he's referring to the Fable/Oblivion style of NPCs giving the player empty recognition for specific actions.

 

[crakkie]

It's more entertaining if you read it in Fergie's accent:

""Far anstance," Urquhart explained in an interview to be published on CVG shortly, "at yoost ta bay fayne ta meke on arrr-pay-jay thot woos jost woondaren aroond ond hackan thangs oop wath tha playarrr hoven vara lattle effict an tha warrrald aroond tham. Waii plah thot gamm noo af ya cood jast plah a am-am-ooo?"

 

[Callaxes]

I just don't understand why people prefer MMO's to the classic coop-up multyplayer. Counter-Strike and Diablo are the best multyplayer experiences I ever received, I can play with who I want, I'm worlking and cooperating with the people I play and not just cause random trouble for everyone I see because I don't a have life to go to when I get bored and best of all: the gameplay is centered arround me and my team mates, not 5000 people I don't know shit about.

Oh and MMO's aren't the devil, it's just that there aren't any good ones out.

 

[Ladonna]

No, they ARE the Devil....

 

[sheek]

Thing is this:

Multiplayer shooters & (real-time) strategy games add to gameplay... they are sandbox type games and randomness, the ability for cooperation/alliances (and breaking them) are weaknesses of SP-only experience. Human players create the fun in those kind of games.

Multiplayer RPGs detract from gameplay. A good RPG is not a sandbox and a large part of what makes it good is content, and what is scripted. Other human players fucking around with you and the gameworld is almost always a bad thing.

It's like a PnP game without a GM... a total waste of time. The only fun is in rolling dice, which you could do on your own, and that gets old pretty fast.

 

[DarkSign]

Ok. As resident MMO-mouthbreather I had a long reply rant typed out. Then I re-read the article and realized he wasn't really anti-MMO...and makes a good point. It's almost like he had an epiphany that people play MMOs solo. Yes, we know this...but perhaps developers werent realizing the eff

The trade-off between RPG and MMO is that MMOs have the draw of community...whereas RPGs can be much more immersive (via reactions to the character, triggered events, etc).

Perhaps depth will win over money? Those who choose avarice just skip single-player rpg making...and choose to make MMOs?

Let's hope.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Never played a MMO, but I consider getting Lord of the Rings online. I have no interest in the game per se, but it might be fun to just trot through Middle Earth for a while. Anyone know if the world is done well?

 

[DarkSign]

Never played a MMO, but I consider getting Lord of the Rings online. I have no interest in the game per se, but it might be fun to just trot through Middle Earth for a while. Anyone know if the world is done well?

Id give the world design a B-/C+. It's no where near the rolling hills and sweeping breadth of WoW (the only part of WoW I liked in over a year of playing), but it's pretty faithful to the LotR cannon.

I'd give the whole game a flat C as there's no innovative gameplay and not much pretty to look at. But if youre a LotR 'die-hard' you could justify one month's play.

 

[Risine]

Not sure MMO are the evil as you guys say concerning CRPG. Problem is elsewhere considering the evolution of CRPG. CRPG's digs its own grave, at least for a few years. We had a golden period in 1996-2002 with all Fallout/Baldur/Planescape... games, and now we have ... Oblivion. This game hurts CRPG far more than any MMO stuff. As long as stories,texts, are considered as details, and as long as CRPG will be done only to be accessible to the most possible players, things won't change.

 

[FrancoTAU]

I'm just glad there's new news. News about Feargles no less!

Anyway, I agree MMOs are the devil. I played WoW for a few months. It was incredibly fun and if you find a good guild that you become real friends with then you basically don't have to leave your computer chair. All the happiness and fulfillment is right there in the game.

I've been missing WoW lately. Mostly, I miss the friends I made. It depresses me that I can't play with them anymore. Really, friends made in game is what makes an MMO so addicting. Enemies made in game makes it incredibly addicting.

To me, the monetary price was worth it. Losing my dignity and have absolutely no real life was not so worth it. Though, if my parents didn't thwart my fun I'd probably still be playing the game.

I guess I'm trying to say that MMORPGs are too addicting to exist. They are evil evil games designed to suck you in and never let you go so they can take all your monies. Good things I gave away my account and threw away my disks. Otherwise I'd probably set it up and pay for this month so I could play with my old guild for a couple days before I go back to my Marine Corps duties. It's like smoking. You never really become not addicted even when you quit.

You're a disgrace to Jersey. You make the baby Bon Jovi cry.

 

[flushfire]

hmmm

IMO, one advantage of SPs over MMOs is that you can actually finish the game. And the story actually comes to a conclusion. MMOs can never really tell a good story (or those that I have played at least, don't). It's always get to level uber quickly by killing X monster by X level by Y attack and follow this Z build. In SPs you actually feel that the world will crumble without you, that nothing will be accomplished if you don't act. In MMOs, even if you've built yourself up as the most powerful PvP/PvM character ever in your server, you're as essential to the development of the story as that lvl1 newbie that's killing furry rabbits on the tutorial map. Leave the game for a week and everybody's tons levels higher than you and you have to catch up to be able to party with them. And you never feel any sort of wanting to explore any new location in MMOs, you know they'll be filled by some sort of monster geared for this level and a boss that takes this amount of time to spawn with players camping them.

I really don't get what the fuss about WoW is all about. I played it for a month and multiple times after (my friends were telling me to keep playing) and never really got that hooked to it. I guess WoW is the same as cigarette to me, I've also tried that multiple times and I never really got addicted.

Ive played tons of MMOs before, RF Online, WoW, Ragnarok Online, Guild Wars, Pirate King Online, Rose Online, MU, RAN, EQ, Khan, Khal, Goddamn I cant even remember the names of some of the other games. I still prefer SPs.

...and now we have ... Oblivion. This game hurts CRPG far more than any MMO stuff. As long as stories,texts, are considered as details, and as long as CRPG will be done only to be accessible to the most possible players, things won't change.

Although I don't really share the MMOs are the evil POV, the failure of Oblivion as a RPG can still be attributed to MMOs because that is what exactly Oblivion tried to be - a single player MMO.