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Question about meeting other devs

Alchemist

Arcane
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Messages
1,439
I think it's like this: If you're a person with the status of Sid Meier, Richard Garriott, Will Wright, or Peter Molyneaux :lol: , you can get away with just being "the idea guy". Here's the rub - all of them started out by programming their breakthrough games themselves. You've got to put in your time in the trenches to prove yourself.

Anyway it's not nearly as hard today to put a game together as it was in the old days. The amount of options and tools out there are staggering. Don't be lazy, just take some time to learn how to build a game yourself. Even if you just make a prototype with "programmer art" at least that's something to show off your "amazing" concept to potential collaborators (or investors / backers).
 

DavidBVal

4 Dimension Games
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Developer
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Madrid
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We all value our own ideas as "the bestest", so it won't be easy for you to find a great coder that admits your ideas are better than his. Chances are, if he's one of the very few individuals able to code an RPG by himself, and to the end, he'll also be a good designer of contents and mechanics.

check http://www.java-gaming.org/ but it's a programming forum.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
I think it's like this: If you're a person with the status of Sid Meier, Richard Garriott, Will Wright, or Peter Molyneaux :lol: , you can get away with just being "the idea guy". Here's the rub - all of them started out by programming their breakthrough games themselves. You've got to put in your time in the trenches to prove yourself.

Anyway it's not nearly as hard today to put a game together as it was in the old days. The amount of options and tools out there are staggering. Don't be lazy, just take some time to learn how to build a game yourself. Even if you just make a prototype with "programmer art" at least that's something to show off your "amazing" concept to potential collaborators (or investors / backers).
While I agree with most of what you said, I disagree with this particular point. It is more difficult today to put together a game that will have a chance in the marketplace than it used to be. It is fairly simple to put together a platformer, as shown by numerous indie games, but that is not enough to compete. NES and prior graphics were something that did not require a real artist's input. This creates a barrier to entry in terms of time/money for the hobbyist.

Some things are easier, but others are more difficult.
 
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Alchemist

Arcane
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Messages
1,439
While I agree with most of what you said, I disagree with this particular point. It is more difficult today to put together a game that will have a chance in the marketplace than it used to be. It is fairly simple to put together a platformer, as shown by numerous indie games, but that is not enough to compete. NES and prior graphics were something that did not require a real artist's input. This creates a barrier to entry in terms of time/money for the hobbyist.

Some thing are easier, but others are more difficult.
That's a good point and I agree, there are some areas that are harder to achieve because the bar has been raised so much. Especially quality of graphics and level of polish - which are needed to stand out if it's to be a commercially successful project. I should clarify that I meant more on the technical end - there are so many tools - from game makers and visual scripting to various middleware and Unity add-ons that make it easier for someone to get a game up and running. But you are right - the market is so saturated now, a game has to have some real quality (gameplay, graphics, presentation / polish) to even get noticed. Unless it's based on a "flash in the pan" gimmick (like Goat Simulator or Flappy Bird - which are anomalies).
 

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
Congratulations, now make a twitter account to complain about inclusiveness and you're an indie gamedev. Might wanna color your hair something interesting, like purple.
Slightly off-topic, guys I made a cool crayon drawing of a car, know of any car mechanics that would be willing to implement my car ideas? I can use a screwdriver and a hammer so at least that's something, I guess. We would make a great team.
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,885
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Water Play Catarinense
Congratulations, now make a twitter account to complain about inclusiveness and you're an indie gamedev. Might wanna color your hair something interesting, like purple.
Slightly off-topic, guys I made a cool crayon drawing of a car, know of any car mechanics that would be willing to implement my car ideas? I can use a screwdriver and a hammer so at least that's something, I guess. We would make a great team.
Used to work as a car mechanic. You are doing well, show your drawing so I can tell if this will work. I don't know, maybe we can work together. It's easier to make cars out of crayon drawing than to expect people to make games for you. :M
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
I know you guys mean well, but there is a bit too much crowd-thinking here. First of all, there is confusion about what "ideas" mean. I don't mean it in a way that you come up with some high level idea, like "oh, let's make a game about A with mechanic B". I mean it as actual design, where you come up with detailed gameplay mechanics, which is actually a lot of VERY important work that is, in my opinion, not given enough attention in modern games, whether AAA or indie.

Also, I am not thinking of this as some kind of formal BS, I was thinking more in terms of hooking up with likeminded gamers, bouncing ideas off walls, and if and only if they are interested, trying to create something together. In that context, doing design plus things like writing, level design and whatever else would actually be quite a lot of work, and not some freeloader trying to get by using others' work.

When people start thinking in the same way as everyone else, that's stagnation and the opposite of thinking. I think everyone trying to be a programmer and/or artist is a terrible idea myself, because it is extremely inefficient. I should spend years making some shitty mods, then spend more time learning game programming even though that doesn't interest me in the slightest just so I can be a shitty 2nd rate game programmer just so I can finally get to design interesting games? Or every good game programmer should try to make his own game, even though most of their ideas are terrible, as evidenced by the current glut of these horrible indie games that god knows who buys and plays? How about people instead stick to what they are actually good? Yes, yes I know, how would they know if I am any good at design since I don't have anything on my resume, but that's the point of meeting up with like-minded people and talking about games and ideas. If these sound like shit, they are free to walk away.
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
906
Location
Malaysia
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I know you guys mean well, but there is a bit too much crowd-thinking here. First of all, there is confusion about what "ideas" mean. I don't mean it in a way that you come up with some high level idea, like "oh, let's make a game about A with mechanic B". I mean it as actual design, where you come up with detailed gameplay mechanics, which is actually a lot of VERY important work that is, in my opinion, not given enough attention in modern games, whether AAA or indie.

Also, I am not thinking of this as some kind of formal BS, I was thinking more in terms of hooking up with likeminded gamers, bouncing ideas off walls, and if and only if they are interested, trying to create something together. In that context, doing design plus things like writing, level design and whatever else would actually be quite a lot of work, and not some freeloader trying to get by using others' work.

When people start thinking in the same way as everyone else, that's stagnation and the opposite of thinking. I think everyone trying to be a programmer and/or artist is a terrible idea myself, because it is extremely inefficient. I should spend years making some shitty mods, then spend more time learning game programming even though that doesn't interest me in the slightest just so I can be a shitty 2nd rate game programmer just so I can finally get to design interesting games? Or every good game programmer should try to make his own game, even though most of their ideas are terrible, as evidenced by the current glut of these horrible indie games that god knows who buys and plays? How about people instead stick to what they are actually good? Yes, yes I know, how would they know if I am any good at design since I don't have anything on my resume, but that's the point of meeting up with like-minded people and talking about games and ideas. If these sound like shit, they are free to walk away.

Alright, you have been me convinced of your determination.
Now, this is my recommendation.

Design your game and then post the parts of the design documents that you feel need feedback in a thread in this subforum. I don't think anybody have problems giving you feedback on that.
If everything in your design document is brilliant, who knows? Vault Dweller or others might be interested in teaming up with you.
If nothing else, this is time spent better than you trying to convince people of the validity of your sale pitch approach.
 

28.8bps Modem

Prophet
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
302
Location
The Internet, Circa 1993
Alright, you have been me convinced of your determination.
Now, this is my recommendation.

Design your game and then post the parts of the design documents that you feel need feedback in a thread in this subforum. I don't think anybody have problems giving you feedback on that.
If everything in your design document is brilliant, who knows? Vault Dweller or others might be interested in teaming up with you.
If nothing else, this is time spent better than you trying to convince people of the validity of your sale pitch approach.

Yeah, basically this.

I've never seen anyone get any buy in on a game project or mod without anything to show. Mostly all the successful ideas-that-go-on-to-be-games that I've seen have shown some game play, but I suppose it's at least remotely possible that a sufficiently brilliant design document could be convincing. If what you have to sell is ideas, invest some time in to it and start publishing your ideas.

I will say one thing though, it's not a coincidence that most indie designers tend to be programmers and not artists (and definitely not dedicated designers/writers.) Design is always an iterative process, your first idea is never as good as seems in your head. The time it takes per iteration is cut by orders of magnitude if the designer, implementer and tester are all one person. Having to round trip an implementation to a designer every time a change is made and having them articulate what needs to change to improve it is incredibly slow.
 

gaussgunner

Arcane
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
6,151
Location
ХУДШИЕ США
I know you guys mean well, but there is a bit too much crowd-thinking here.
Now we're just being dicks. But it's not groupthink, it's the universal experience of every programmer who's ever worked for an idea guy.

I was thinking more in terms of hooking up with likeminded gamers
lol, gamers be like "I gotta SICK IDEA bruh.. like, there was a NUCLEAR WAR or no maybe a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE and here's the kicker, you play a TRANNY CAR THIEF"

Why don't you do a game jam with some friends (or just you) and see what you can do in a weekend? Even if it's just a lame HTML CYOA, no art or programming required.

Or every good game programmer should try to make his own game, even though most of their ideas are terrible, as evidenced by the current glut of these horrible indie games
Those are fucking idea guys!! Also known as game "developers", who would know their ideas are shit if they were good programmers.... 'cause 90% of programming is background research, thinking things through, figuring out how to organize your data, and deciding if the project is worth doing, before you really start coding. But you just can't do it if you don't know how to code, you're just daydreaming.

Yes, go make shit games like that until you figure out how to make, uh, slightly less shitty games that some people want to play. It's slow and inefficient but it's really the only way.
 

ProphetSword

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
1,755
Location
Monkey Island
I think everyone trying to be a programmer and/or artist is a terrible idea myself, because it is extremely inefficient. I should spend years making some shitty mods, then spend more time learning game programming even though that doesn't interest me in the slightest just so I can be a shitty 2nd rate game programmer just so I can finally get to design interesting games?

If your goal is to spend years so that you only end up being a 2nd rate game programmer, sure. A better strategy is to aim higher and spend those years toward becoming a top-notch expert programmer. Understanding how things work will make you a better designer. You can't design a fucking automobile if you have no idea how they operate.

Or every good game programmer should try to make his own game, even though most of their ideas are terrible, as evidenced by the current glut of these horrible indie games that god knows who buys and plays?

There are probably an equal number of shitty games by indie groups that were fronted by "idea men" who thought they were excellent at design.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,346
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Why not start with a board game, or a PnP RPG then (but there might be too much writing required there, compared to actual gameplay)?
It would require like zero technical expertise, and you won't have to rely on someone else willing to be your partner. You would only have to convince an editor to work with you (and do most of the non design work like getting an illustrator, printing the components, and selling the game).
After you have shipped one you would probably have a much easier time convincing someone else to work with you.
 

Hoaxmetal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
9,157
but there is a bit too much crowd-thinking here.
You wouldn't be complaining if the crowd-think would involve people slurping up your ideas. Oh wait, you still haven't shared anything. Post a design doc here, get destroyed by critique like 99% of ideas men or become next RPGCodex gamedev messiah.
 
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sprajt

Ende Games
Developer
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
14
Well first of all, if your not motivated to learn programming and develop yourself, you probably won't achieve much in game development area. Developing a game is hard task and you should be mentally ready for such commitment. If you want to just tell spread your ideas left and right, this might not work. But if you are willing to develop yourself as a person and developer, I suggest you starting with inviting your real life friends. Even if you don't have any friends that specilize in art or programming, I'm sure you know players that simply love games and have plenty of free time. If your ideas are really good, then you have some chances to convince them to try create some mock-ups or prototypes. Doing that, even if the game will fail, you will benefit by developing yourselves and your skills, which is very important.

I was in similar position about a year ago. Although I just started to learn code (unlike you), I felt that my ambitions were too much compared to my skills back then. That's why I prepared for 2 meetings and eventually convinced 2 of my real friends (one developer/programmer, and one artist, who at that time only made some logos) and it was very good decision to pursue my dream to create a game :). Now we're creating a game that some day may turn into commercial success.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
795
I think it's like this: If you're a person with the status of Sid Meier, Richard Garriott, Will Wright, or Peter Molyneaux :lol: , you can get away with just being "the idea guy". Here's the rub - all of them started out by programming their breakthrough games themselves. You've got to put in your time in the trenches to prove yourself.

Anyway it's not nearly as hard today to put a game together as it was in the old days. The amount of options and tools out there are staggering. Don't be lazy, just take some time to learn how to build a game yourself. Even if you just make a prototype with "programmer art" at least that's something to show off your "amazing" concept to potential collaborators (or investors / backers).
I agree. I think ultimately most of us who want to make games don't have the full package somehow. I can code, for example. I've coded a lot over the years in many languages. But for hte life of me I can't make a game. Not creative enough. Work too slowly. Work on the wrong things. Lose interest quickly. I found this out because I've tried to make games.

So the best litmus test is just to try yourself. If you fail enouugh, you're probably not meant for it.

It's hard though. I still hold on to the hope someday I'll make something. I think the thing I'm most proud is just a very basic perlin noise map viewer in allegro. It's just a map you can scroll and zoom to the limits of precision. It's not 3d, it's just a elevation map with colors. It's enormous, like a large chunk of Earth, because it's not stored in memory. I managed to create a more broken terrain at the higher scales and a smoother at the lower, without losing precision, a result which is more lifelike to me. This means when you're zoomed out the landscape is more broken but when you're zoomed in significantly it's smoother. However, I did not manage to create different persistance for different terrain, like jagged rocky shore versus smooth beach. I also found without roaming algorithms it's very unrealistic. No rivers. No oceans. Etc. Some of it can be faked wiht procedural algorithms, like erosion, but I didn't get deeply into that. Last time I was working on it I was contemplating creating procedural textures. I found that a high frequency looked like forest, for example. The problem is it would have slowed it down greatly, so I was confused how to handle it. I didn't have realistic terrain types yet either, as they're directly tied to elvation instead of other factor like precipition, slope, proximity, etc. Yet of all the things I've made, it's the most interesting and inspiring when I run it again.

I wanted to use the map viewer as a space game where you get marooned on a planet after crashing landing your ship. But I bit more than I can chew, way more. I am hopeless to set achievable goals in realistic time frame.

There're programmers who achieve far more than myself. I'm always humbled and amazed at what some do. Itr certainly puts me in my place and huge respect for it. For example, the one behind the Star Wraith space games is almost single handedly responsible for ALL its programming. It's so impressive one person can achieve all that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wraith_(video_game_series)
http://www.starwraith.com/evochronmercenary/

One person was responsible for the Orbiter space flight simulator:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbiter_(simulator)
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

There're many, many more programmers like that.
 
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