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PC Gamer Top RPG of all time

hpstg

Savant
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
485
I never troll anybody, I really write what I think, it would be time wasted if I did differently.
Salute brother.

(And don't forget, if it is not already done, to take a look at the great work of felipepe for his free book in the Codex Workshop section, he's a great generous archivist who really wants for people to understand where do we come from).
I didn't know about that, thank you for telling me, I'll check it out.

As for the subject itself, the lists themselves are meaningless in the end, but I still believe that they serve the purpose of introducing people to new things for them. Someone here mentioned Gothic 2 being below something else in a PC GAMER list. I'm happy that it's even IN this mainstream magazine's and that a few people might check out out because of it.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
How much does Reaper of Souls improve on Diablo 3?

I want an objective opinion, not Blizzard fanboys.

I seriously hated the art style and lack of gothic atmosphere of the original game.

Its no rpg, but as a hack and slay it improved a lot. Its really playable now for some weeks until your equipment is on a level it becomes hard to improve yourself.

Art style is ofcourse the same though.
 

prodigydancer

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
1,399
How much does Reaper of Souls improve on Diablo 3?
RoS = polished turd. The original wasn't just bad, it was irredeemable. So the first step on the road to improving on it would be throwing it out of the window and going back to the drawing board. Instead they decided to sell us "better loot system" for another $60. I didn't even pay full price for D3 (because I was in beta and more or less knew what to expect) and as for RoS... I said it before and I'll say it again: fuck you, Blizzard.
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
4,556
How much does Reaper of Souls improve on Diablo 3?
RoS = polished turd. The original wasn't just bad, it was irredeemable. So the first step on the road to improving on it would be throwing it out of the window and going back to the drawing board. Instead they decided to sell us "better loot system" for another $60. I didn't even pay full price for D3 (because I was in beta and more or less knew what to expect) and as for RoS... I said it before and I'll say it again: fuck you, Blizzard.

Thanks for your input.

I remember a long time ago, before the game was ever released, that there was a petition to make Diablo 3 look like this:

diablo-fan-05.jpg
diablo-fan-04.jpg
d3wow.jpg
The difference is night and day, and I mean that for the better.

I'm waiting for Grim Dawn to be released in its completed state to get my Diablo II fix.
 

prodigydancer

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
1,399
I remember a long time ago, before the game was ever released, that there was a petition
Ah, but that nauseating WoW-like pastel color scheme was the least of their crimes. (In fact you could almost fix it with a good SweetFX profile.) How they butchered the lore in order to retrofit nephalem was far more revolting. (No, the main character cannot be a blank state nobody anymore. MC needs to be speshul! How else the player will get the feeling that the world revolves around him?)

Still, even that I could begrudgingly accept if gameplay weren't such a joke and the whole deal wasn't such a scam. First, they fucking lied about "adding PvP later." Arena is not a an adequate replacement for world PvP. Second, they couldn't even get the basics right. For instance, mobility and positioning played a huge role in D2 (unless you were a dumbass one-button WW barb). In D3 the only class that somewhat relies on mobility is DH and maps are so claustrophobic that you wouldn't have any room for manoeuvre anyway. Finally, I played D3 on a 680 GTX and I still had some hiccups in act 3, 'nuff said.

There was more of course but I don't want to recount everything here. And RoS may be marginally better than vanilla but top 15 game of all time? Seriously, WTF is wrong with people who make such lists...
 

Annah

Barely Literate
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
1
6. Mass Effect 2

It could always be worse, PC Gamer could have chosen Mass Effect 1 instead!

ME2 is not a good RPG (neither is the first) but at least I didn't see the same three dungeons throughout the entire game and the combat was actually playable this time. The romantization of the first game from certain quarters is something I will never care for.
 

Reif

Novice
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3
And if I have to see Planescape rated higher than BG2 one more time I'm finally gonna put that crossbow in my mouth.

I used to content myself with lurking, but at that point I'd like to share my thoughts.
I am in a way also sick of seeing PS:T at the top of this chart. Certainly not because the evil mainstream stole my precious rpg gem but rather because I am very certain that this choice in particular is not at all about actual preference but simply about rpg hipster cred.
Because if it wasn't, it would pose the delicate question why Torment, that was released in fucking 1999, has only found it's way into these kinds of charts and wider mainstream media attention in general in the last couple of years.

Maybe gaming journalists needed to mature and develop the refined taste to properly judge the classics? Then surely shit like Mass Effect 2 and worse wouldn't be on this list, right?
Maybe the game needed to ripen like a good wine? After all, it's not like "Games age [...] and the technology they were built on looks like junk today." Oh.
Or maybe, these people in fact just care so little for rpgs, but are - for obvious reasons - under no circumstances allowed to let it show - that they don't back off from even the most absurd mental gymnastics, like their hilarious definition of "the best rpgs" just to not having to actually deal with them on a substantial level beyond their gut feelings.

In my opinion, these people are simply unable to do their job, which would be bringing underrated and especially under-advertised gems to their audience's attention instead of showering them with basically insubstantial reviews of anyway hyped-to-hell-and-back games by very-to-moderately big companies.
Case in point: Serpent in the Staglands versus Pillars of Eternity, two thematically and mechanically greatly similar games. The former is an absolutely unexpected surprise made by two fucking people with a fraction of the budget of the latter, that has exactly two things going for it, which is pre-rendered backgrounds - and those, again, are mostly a matter of budget - and the realisation that those DO in fact look better than bad to mediocre real-time 3d. Yet the former is almost not written about while the latter, despite the sobering concession of even the biggest fanbois that "well, it's not perfect but good for what it is", is apparently rpg #20 OF ALL TIME.
Case in point #2: Dark Souls I versus II. Some people love them, some people like them, some people hate them. BUT I have virtually seen no one, be it on the internet or in real life, state that II is somehow better than I. Some say I is miles ahead, others say I is slightly better, but no one ever said DSII is better than DSI. Yet Dark Souls I has a "critic" metascore of 85 while II scores a whopping 91 (and I think he difference was even greater a year ago). Guess the gaming journalists were a little late for the hype train.

To sum it all up: This list - at least from my point of view - has little to do with incline but very much with the fact that PC Gamer will be the ones scoring #1 on the Most Hipster Mainstream RPG Critics of All Time chart (this year).
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I don't agree that "best" lists are garbage. I came to know codex when I saw the Top 70 list with the reviews a few months ago. I have been playing rpgs for only a couple of years and was looking for great games I may have missed.

So I found some lists online, but their reasoning did not make any sense to me. Then I found the codex list, and my 4 favorite rpgs were on the top 4 spots! I decided to follow -loosely- the list and finally tried New Vegas (the combat system destroyed it for me, but was still OK for a couple of playthroughs), and the Gothics (great fun!). I have now started playing Arcanum and my mind is blown. When I am through with it after multiple playthroughs, I 'll probably check Bloodlines.

So, in a nutshell, the codex "best" list saved my life. "Best" list are very serious business, even if they oversimplify very complex concepts and feelings to a mere ranking with some notes.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,235
And if I have to see Planescape rated higher than BG2 one more time I'm finally gonna put that crossbow in my mouth.

I used to content myself with lurking, but at that point I'd like to share my thoughts.
I am in a way also sick of seeing PS:T at the top of this chart. Certainly not because the evil mainstream stole my precious rpg gem but rather because I am very certain that this choice in particular is not at all about actual preference but simply about rpg hipster cred.
Because if it wasn't, it would pose the delicate question why Torment, that was released in fucking 1999, has only found it's way into these kinds of charts and wider mainstream media attention in general in the last couple of years.

Maybe gaming journalists needed to mature and develop the refined taste to properly judge the classics? Then surely shit like Mass Effect 2 and worse wouldn't be on this list, right?
Maybe the game needed to ripen like a good wine? After all, it's not like "Games age [...] and the technology they were built on looks like junk today." Oh.
Or maybe, these people in fact just care so little for rpgs, but are - for obvious reasons - under no circumstances allowed to let it show - that they don't back off from even the most absurd mental gymnastics, like their hilarious definition of "the best rpgs" just to not having to actually deal with them on a substantial level beyond their gut feelings.

In my opinion, these people are simply unable to do their job, which would be bringing underrated and especially under-advertised gems to their audience's attention instead of showering them with basically insubstantial reviews of anyway hyped-to-hell-and-back games by very-to-moderately big companies.
Case in point: Serpent in the Staglands versus Pillars of Eternity, two thematically and mechanically greatly similar games. The former is an absolutely unexpected surprise made by two fucking people with a fraction of the budget of the latter, that has exactly two things going for it, which is pre-rendered backgrounds - and those, again, are mostly a matter of budget - and the realisation that those DO in fact look better than bad to mediocre real-time 3d. Yet the former is almost not written about while the latter, despite the sobering concession of even the biggest fanbois that "well, it's not perfect but good for what it is", is apparently rpg #20 OF ALL TIME.
Case in point #2: Dark Souls I versus II. Some people love them, some people like them, some people hate them. BUT I have virtually seen no one, be it on the internet or in real life, state that II is somehow better than I. Some say I is miles ahead, others say I is slightly better, but no one ever said DSII is better than DSI. Yet Dark Souls I has a "critic" metascore of 85 while II scores a whopping 91 (and I think he difference was even greater a year ago). Guess the gaming journalists were a little late for the hype train.

To sum it all up: This list - at least from my point of view - has little to do with incline but very much with the fact that PC Gamer will be the ones scoring #1 on the Most Hipster Mainstream RPG Critics of All Time chart (this year).


Well, so it does mean the kickstarters have changed the playing field, didn't they? I got curious by you saying PT got mainstream attention only a few years ago. Searched for list of "best rpgs", and "top rpgs" for years 2003-2005 and the only list I found was this monstrosity http://www.listchallenges.com/igns-top-100-rpgs-of-all-time , which still had Torment in the top 13. There were no more top rpgs list but found this article : http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-greatest-games-of-all-time-planescape-torment/1100-6135401/ . I think you overstate how much was this game unknown back then.
 

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
I never cared about those top lists or what they put in them really but I'm glad to not see a top 10 filled with gook games for once, probably has something to do with the name pc gamer though :s
 

HotSnack

Cipher
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
650
Iirc, Torment was critically praised back then by magazines/sites that covered pc gaming. It just lacked the broad appeal of bg2.

A real wtf would be if these publications started listing MotB in their best lists, a game that was panned and forgotten by critics but much loved by rpg fans.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
The Torment Kickstarter did put PST in the spotlight, but yeah, I really doubt the PC gamer staff actually played it, I doesn't add up with the tastes of people who'd put Mass Effect on the list, let alone #6.
Make no mistake, they definitely looked at the Codex top 70 and tried to give it some credibility. Just look at how PST, Fallout 2 and Morrowind are in the same positions, hardly a coincidence.
 

Reif

Novice
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3

It might have been advisable to do some more research before my first post on the codex, and doing so turned out that Torment even scored "RPG of the Month" in several magazines at the time. Therefore the accusation of lacking media attention is certainly untenable, however I also remembered that Interplay/Black Isle was a pretty big name back then.

My points still stand though and are even reinforced by comparing these two reviews if "gaming journalists" is replaced by "modern gaming journalists" in my former post.

In not only two but three times as many paragraphs, the PoE review's author manages to deliver surprisingly little substance compared to the one from 14 years ago.
Sorry, but there are zero traces of any deeper examination here.
Comparison with similar titles (which would be a no-brainer in this case especially)?
The Torment review has them, the Pillars of Eternity one has the sketchy statement that "it's the most captivating, rewarding RPG [he] played on a PC in years". That might imply that the other IE games were in fact better but with these vague restrictions - that are all to common in modern reviews - we will never now for sure. And I think that is exactly in the writer's interest.
Discussion of the features of the combat system?
Instead, there is the assesment that you can loot a slain mage's spellbook and a whopping seven-paragraph-long description of the author's personal LARPing sessions when fighting with his bro Edér & company that boils down to the the shocking insight that in this game warriors are holding the front line, wizard's are casting spells and priests are buffing the whole gang. Or in other words: That, regarding flavour, decades old fantasy-archetypes do what decades old fantasy-archetypes do in combat.
The only part that could pass as substantial would be the three pragraphs long explanation of the reputation system, which looks great on paper, but played an extremely minor role in the final product (even the most die-hard PoE-fanboi will admit that it is not exactly the reputation system that distinguishes Pillars).

I don't want to delve into wild conspiracy theories of bribery with this, I honestly don't think so in this case.
But this is certainly an underwhelming and lacking review for an alleged nerd that "spend his youth with Baldur's Gate".
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense
You only need to see any top 10 rpg list of any site to see if they are just trying to please the crowd/rpg fan or not. Mass Effect 2 being #6 tells you everything you need to know.
 

Lord Azlan

Arcane
Patron
Shitposter
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
1,901
I should probably get banned for linking PC Gamer, but this list is to hilarious to pass up. It actually contains a bit of incline.

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-best-rpgs-of-all-time-1


1. Planescape: Torment
2. Baldur’s Gate 2
3. Fallout 2
4. The Witcher 3
5. Dark Souls: Prepare To Die Edition
6. Mass Effect 2
7. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
8. Deus Ex
9. Ultima VII: The Black Gate
10. System Shock 2
11. Dragon Age: Origins
12. The Witcher 2
13. Fallout: New Vegas
14. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
15. Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls
16. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
17. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2
18. Divinity: Original Sin
19. Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
20. Pillars of Eternity
21. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
22. Gothic 2
23. Neverwinter Nights 2
24. Undertale
25. Arx Fatalis
26. Torchlight 2
27. Legend of Grimrock 2
28. Mount & Blade: Warband
29. Anachronox
30. Dungeons of Dredmor
31. South Park Stick of Truth

This lot at PC Gamer are mostly lame. For a couple of years they ditched SS2 from the list and then - unexplained - added it back again.

I would suggest they started with the Codex list to gain some credibility and added some tweaks so they would not get done for copyright.

The top six is just a disgrace - I find it hard to believe they ranked PST, BG2, Fallout 2 and then Witcher 3 - what the heck is that about?

No Wizardries, M&Ms, Bards Tale or Wastelands - the list is a complete fail.

At one point I thought they were only limiting one game from each stable but then I saw Witcher 2 ranked at 12.

Good to see Dredmor at 30. But Undertale at 24 and Diablo 3 at 15th?

Hang on - sorry - RPG only came out in 1998. Can't imagine what I was playing before then.
 

Atlantico

unida e indivisible
Patron
Undisputed Queen of Faggotry Vatnik In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
14,668
Location
Midgard
Make the Codex Great Again!
It could always be worse, PC Gamer could have chosen Mass Effect 1 instead!

ME2 is not a good RPG (neither is the first) but at least I didn't see the same three dungeons throughout the entire game and the combat was actually playable this time. The romantization of the first game from certain quarters is something I will never care for.

ME3 is by faaaar better than ME2. ME1 has little to nothing to do with either one of the sequels.

ME3 is in fact almost good, while ME2 is almost playable, but not quite.

ME1 is ambitious and flawed. I respect that. This is of course all from a PC player's perspective, perhaps you're a peasant.
 

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