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Underrail: The Incline Awakens

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
I don't think Baldur's Gate is balanced, but I think it is a better game than Underrail. I think that by choosing to respect the internal logic up to a point and giving the player a vast amount of interesting options, Baldur's Gate made something much more interesting overall. I don't mean by this to demean Underrail, only to say that it focused on something less important.

About the problem, I was trying to explain it in all these posts I have made in this thread.
What do you mean by "choosing to respect the internal logic up to a point and giving the player a vast amount of interesting options"? Because I had a lot of fun playing an evil sorceress, but frankly, I fail to see any sort of logic in how magic was implemented in that game. Prime example being the number of actions you could take in a round.

Well, though the implementation of combat guts and change some of the core ideas, Baldur's Gate and its sequel more or less follows the basic idea behind AD&D 2nd edition. Rounds still mean the same thing in both games (even though they are implemented differently), magic means the same thing, etc.

Magic in AD&D might seem weird and unthematic. But it is a lot of fun, exactly because it followed a specific logic inside Gary Gygax's head, copying ideas from various pulp fantasy works and adding some stuff of his own. It seems to me that a lot in Underrail is limited because of a premature and excessive concern about balance. For instance, I find it a bit ridiculous how your fire powers will only set people on fire if you have a certain feat. If the feat actually changed how your character acted, maybe your psionics would get stronger from setting stuff on fire, it could be argued that it was a thematic limitation. But it clearly isn't, it is just a balance concern. An example of game that at least used to take thematic concerns first was the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. You would have cold spells shattering potions, fire spells burning scrolls, summoning imps that could raise the dead and what not.
You've missed my point. Baldur's Gate had a system in which there was an action per round limit; you could attack, cast a spell, drink a potion etc. And then it got all thrown out of the window by introducing spell sequencers, contingencies, improved alacrity and that lovely mage robe, which reduced casting time. The result is game, where a mage can unload their entire spellbook in such a short time, that anything not immune to magic or wearing enough spell protections to make them resemble a xmas tree would stand no chance. And then of course they gave mages an instant kill spell that ignored magic resistance and offered no save. And if you think that is better than having cooldowns on grenades to prevent their spamming, then I have to disagree, because to me the ability to mass spam skull traps is the shittier design choice. (and frankly, combat in unmodded BG was just boring)

Then we disagree.
 

Blackmill

Scholar
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
326
Does anyone know which vendors sell Blueprints for Trance, Supersolider, and Regenerative Mixture?
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
Can someone get me screenshots of the psi powers that arent available on the wiki? i need to know where to invest extra points.

Which one you want to know. That is a lot of work man.
Psi cognitive interruption from thought control.
Pseudo spatial projection
neurovisual disruption


From thermodinamics
Exothermic aura
cryo shield

I fucking suck I have all of those but I'm max level and not PSI. Sorry lol
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
Okay, I am stuck and need help from anyone knowledgeable about the tchort institute. I have asked on Underrail forums about it, but the advice I got was to open a a vent and clearly it doesn't work, because I've opened all the vents in that area and
those poor tentacle guys in the basement lab still won't leave their cages. How do you free them? Mistreated underdogs are my one true weakness in games; I can't bring myself to progress further until I get them out.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
People criticized AoD for nets/bolas being rare in a world where you forge weapons out of meteors. If you cling dearly to reality/intuition, this is where AoD would fail you. Also AoD doesn't pretend all builds are viable. Ranged weapon are hilariously bad in that game. AoD's combat system is a lot simpler than Underrail too IMO. And in a simpler combat system, you have a much easier time to curb degeneracy without resorting to cooldown.

I should have been more specific. I didn't mean to say AoD does everything I want out of an RPG. In fact, I haven't even played it besides the demo. However, I do know that AoD is a game where your character has several gameplay approaches to the game itself. You can be a loremaster, a merchant, and assassin, a fighter, etc. These aren't at all balanced against each other in combat, but the game allows you to play, if it is anything like what was being discussed a few years ago, in very different ways. Combat is far less important for a loremaster than for an assassin, for instance.


If the whole combat boils down to this or that strategy, try to figure out how people in the game would counteract it and then give the player those options as well.

I called it degenerate because there are very few ways to fend against it.

I dunno why you call it degenerate gameplay. Give the player a few means to dealing with this kind of enemy. Give him a few alternative ways of going around areas and let him fend for himself.

I guess that could work. But know that you are playing power peaks of particular items. Cooldown is unique in that they don't make it peak less, but it makes it peak less frequently. Giving direct tools to counter-act a particular strategy does make a item weaker, thus peaking less.

Then requiring a particular item setup prior for a particular encounter without any clues beforehand is often seen as bad design. When you have to apply it to something as simple as flashbangs, you will hear this complaint a lot.

Give the player the clues beforehand then?
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
Give the player the clues beforehand then?

For something as common as say, flashbangs? Mental Breakdown? Dirty Kick? Shock Bolt? Suppose they had no cooldowns. Then you would get a warning for a LOT of fights.

It can certainly be done. But when it is done in such a way with high frequently, it would ruin the game flow for players. Imagine before every fight they tell you to "wear a helmet with a visor because flashbang ahead"

These aren't at all balanced against each other in combat, but the game allows you to play, if it is anything like what was being discussed a few years ago, in very different ways. Combat is far less important for a loremaster than for an assassin, for instance.

This game is a lot more combat focused than AoD. So not really possible. I wish it had more skill checks myself.
 

Blackmill

Scholar
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
326
Can someone get me screenshots of the psi powers that arent available on the wiki? i need to know where to invest extra points.

Which one you want to know. That is a lot of work man.
Psi cognitive interruption from thought control.
Pseudo spatial projection
neurovisual disruption


From thermodinamics
Exothermic aura
cryo shield

There's a dev log that describes what each of the above psi-abilities do.

Thought Control
  • Psi-cognitive Interruption - Burns target's psi points, dealing damage equal to a percentage of psi burned and also applies psi inhibition which prevents the target from invoking psi abilities or regenerating psi points.
  • Mirror Image Pseudo-spatial Projection - Projects additional copies of yourself in the immediate vicinity that travel with you. Each time you are attacked by a weapon or unarmed attack there's a chance that the attack will hit a copy instead, removing it. Machines and true-sighted attackers cannot be fooled by this mind trick.
  • Neurovisual Dsiruption - You disappear from the sight of the target, removing its ability to detect for 1 turn, and immediately enter stealth. Target also has its perception reduced by 5 and detection by 50% for 5 turns. Likewise, does not work on machines or true-sighted enemies.

  • Exothermic Aura - Makes you immune to heat damage and generates flames around you and in your wake. Flame generation stops one turn before the aura expires, giving you the opportunity to flee your inferno.
  • Cryo-shield - Creates a number of frozen shards around the invoker. Each time the character suffers a melee attack, there's 50% chance that one of the shards will block some mechanical damage and be destroyed in the process.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Thanks Blackmill , i guess ill go thought control, i like mirror image more than cryo shield, because mirror image works on ranged attackers as well.

Anyone knows where i can find mirror image?
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
Does anyone know which vendors sell Blueprints for Trance, Supersolider, and Regenerative Mixture?

Regenerative mixture and Super Soldier Drug I found both in Deep Cavern. The blueprint are purple named so I don't think it can be bought.

Trance I forgot. I think it can be bought.

Have you finished the game?

Yep. Had to grind DC. But it became much easier after finding the glorious warehouse B.

Running around with <100 bullets with faceless gaunts jumping you from shadows is no fun. But tolerable when you have enough bullets.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,023
Does anyone know which vendors sell Blueprints for Trance, Supersolider, and Regenerative Mixture?

Regenerative mixture and Super Soldier Drug I found both in Deep Cavern. The blueprint are purple named so I don't think it can be bought.

Trance I forgot. I think it can be bought.

Have you finished the game?

Yep. Had to grind DC. But it became much easier after finding the glorious warehouse B.

Running around with <100 bullets with faceless gaunts jumping you from shadows is no fun. But tolerable when you have enough bullets.

Do you care to post some opinions about the ending? (in spoiler tags) No is an acceptable answer :)
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
Does anyone know which vendors sell Blueprints for Trance, Supersolider, and Regenerative Mixture?

Regenerative mixture and Super Soldier Drug I found both in Deep Cavern. The blueprint are purple named so I don't think it can be bought.

Trance I forgot. I think it can be bought.

Have you finished the game?

Yep. Had to grind DC. But it became much easier after finding the glorious warehouse B.

Running around with <100 bullets with faceless gaunts jumping you from shadows is no fun. But tolerable when you have enough bullets.

Do you care to post some opinions about the ending? (in spoiler tags) No is an acceptable answer :)

Ripe for a sequel. That is how unresolved the ending was. Six just tells me to do shit and give him the shiny shit and no is not an answer because 100% damage resistance. Faceless went back to where they came from without any further explanation of who they are, though I think they are Remnant of Biocorp experiments. Tanner twist came out of nowhere, and looking back it seem to make sense from your very first quest he sends you to the last.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Hm, what is the minimum traps skill to defuse traps? I seem to get 100% critical failure even for Bear Traps at 37.
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
989
I really wanted to love this game, but it's keeping me away with its unbalanced difficulty.

It's one of those games where we have to make really important decisions in character generation. The problem is, until we play a good bit of the game, we have no idea what is important, if we have to min/max or can we balance a little more the character. So I'm stuck at the beggining, always doubting if I made the right choice and start again. I'm trying to settle with a char good with guns, no psi (3 in int and wil). And I'm getting my ass handed to me by those bugs that keep spamming me the neural overload, that kill me in about 4-6 attacks.

Also, although I've concentrated many points to the skills and traits favouring guns, the missed shots are too many (I hate that in RPGs) and the damage is too low (3 shots to kill a rat, minimum, if one of those uses the aimed shot feat for a critical hit). The rats manage to hit me almost as hard as me with a gun! And then there's the matter of very low ammo, and expensive.

Too much of an hassle right now, so after finishing Wasteland 2, I've gone back to Divine Divinity EE and I'm enjoying it very much (although now appears a little bit too easy).

But I don't want to quit this game. So... Anyone wants to suggest a good character build to play underrail?
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
Hm, what is the minimum traps skill to defuse traps? I seem to get 100% critical failure even for Bear Traps at 37.

When disarming a trap, if your traps skill is 20 points above the trap disarming difficulty, or if the trap is your own, you receive it as an item. Otherwise, you cannot reuse the disarmed trap. If your traps skill is 10 points below the trap disarming difficulty, disarming attempt may lead to critical failure and trigger the trap.
 

marux

Augur
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
102
Location
15th meridian east
Probably going to hit DC tonight. Feel prepared for anything that is about to come.
And i just found me some iron gloves that are electric AND pneumatic. Feeling good (hopefully this feeling won't be crashed by DC...and i am almost positive it won't)

Also, i got most of the game mapped, once i finish the game i will try to explore the rest and put a map together (that is on 1-2 big pieces of paper) and then a digital version.
Even tough there is a bunch of maps already out there i am still looking forward to having my own.
might have had an easier time doing this on larger paper :D
7TyGOHt.jpg

Only thing i can add to the cooldown debate, is that health stim cooldowns (on hard) are a bit too long once you are out of combat.
(use health stim in-fight - win - still under 40% - wait for a minute). Otherwise i feel like CDs are really not an issue in this game.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,662
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Hm, what is the minimum traps skill to defuse traps? I seem to get 100% critical failure even for Bear Traps at 37.

Yeah, bear traps require 0 skill to use, and yet I consistently get critical failures when attempting to disarm them (0 skill points invested in Traps). However, I presume the difficulty to disarm a trap isn't based on the skill level needed to use a trap, but on the setter's level, which must be some hidden values in the game code for preexisting traps.

Banging a pressure plate with a long stick is tricky business, as it turns out. In fairness, there are no trees in Underrail.
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
But I don't want to quit this game. So... Anyone wants to suggest a good character build to play underrail?

Burst build is the strongest gun build IMO, and SMG build is the strongest burst build.

I ran STR 3, DEX 10, AGI 6, PER 8, WIL 3 and INT 7. You can take INT 3 and STR 7 to take Full-auto perk to burst 2 extra bullets, but I prefer INT 7 for Gun Nut perk and less dump in crafting.

8 skill to add first is Guns, Throwing, Dodge, Evasion, Lockpicking, Hacking, Trapping and Mechanic.

I maxed Guns, Dodge, Evasion. Throwing stop when you reach around 100 effective skill, lockpicking and hacking around 130 effective skill, trapping around 130(I think it can go lower but I don't want ANY detection from enemies). My secondary skill dump is electronics for shields and chemistry to make grenades. Remember 10 tailoring if you want to make incendiary devices.

Perks to take - I started with expertise and nimble, but expertise is better taken later, and some might not like Nimble. Personally, I am OK with Nimble. You can take sprint first as well. But make sure to take sprint before midgame. Is great. Is why I have 6 agi.

You are going for burst, so you want bursts feats. Take Commando for free extra-burst on mobs, Spec-Ops for low AP burst, Opportunist and suppressive fire because suppressive fire slows and automatically grants +15% damage because of opportunist. Gun Nut for crafting, Quick Tinkering because is the best feat in the game bar to none.

From there I invested in more throwing feats because throwing and trapping is what I am all about. I took Grenadier and Three-Pointer. Three-pointer is good when you are only stating DEX, as your nades have around 30% chance to crit, and each shrapnel(instance of damage) can crit on their own.

All stat points goes into DEX to lower SMG fire cost, which in turn lowers burst cost.

Early game I am carried by traps and grenades. Lategame my SMG is dominates and traps are supplementary. At the end game I was bursting 7 bullets for 10 AP, with each shot doing around 100-120 pre-resistance.
 
Last edited:

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,662
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
But I suppose Blaine can only like perfect things therefore there is nothing wrong with Underrail. Perfect design all around. :hearnoevil:

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about: While logical fallacies abound here in Codexia and I employ them liberally myself, you and your cohorts are taking it to extremes with this cooldown shit.

Underrail is by no means perfect, and I have criticized several aspects of it not only in this thread post-release, but also way back during Early Access, and even in the Re-Preview I wrote for the news page.

However, I am not compelled to recognize the legitimacy of YOUR specific criticism. Disagreeing with YOUR criticism is just as valid as making my own, and by no means indicates that I refuse to entertain criticism of the game. The difference between you and me is that you need everyone to agree with your opinion, possibly because you're a quivering pudding of insecurity or some other, similar defect.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
I really wanted to love this game, but it's keeping me away with its unbalanced difficulty.

It's one of those games where we have to make really important decisions in character generation. The problem is, until we play a good bit of the game, we have no idea what is important, if we have to min/max or can we balance a little more the character. So I'm stuck at the beggining, always doubting if I made the right choice and start again. I'm trying to settle with a char good with guns, no psi (3 in int and wil). And I'm getting my ass handed to me by those bugs that keep spamming me the neural overload, that kill me in about 4-6 attacks.

Also, although I've concentrated many points to the skills and traits favouring guns, the missed shots are too many (I hate that in RPGs) and the damage is too low (3 shots to kill a rat, minimum, if one of those uses the aimed shot feat for a critical hit). The rats manage to hit me almost as hard as me with a gun! And then there's the matter of very low ammo, and expensive.

Too much of an hassle right now, so after finishing Wasteland 2, I've gone back to Divine Divinity EE and I'm enjoying it very much (although now appears a little bit too easy).

But I don't want to quit this game. So... Anyone wants to suggest a good character build to play underrail?
The fun thing about Underrail is that different builds are viable; some are easier, but this isnt a matter of choosing perfect stats or feats. I disagree that you need in-game knowledge to create a succesful character. Ive made a few mistakes with my psi mage, but nothing has proven game stopping so far.
A few remarks: paying attention to enemy behavior helps. Psi beetles get more powerful in groups (an NPC in the beginning tells you that). But alone they have just neural overload, which has a relatively short range. Keeping them at distance (shoot and run) worked with cryokinesis, and probably would work with a long range weapon too.
If this is your first character, dont dump intelligence, as crafting really makes this game easier - especially for a sharpshooter. The crafting system is quite convenient, as clicking on an empty space in the crafting window will cycle through useable components.
You dont need that many points in throwing (about 50-60, unless your character has very low dexterity) to use grenades, because they have large area of effect.
That said, for a gun character I dont think you should have many problems with a rifles, grenades and heavy armor character, as long as you invest in crafting skills (and feats).
 

AW8

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,852
Location
North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
XRsjuS9.jpg


I'm currently stuck on the main quest in Core City and JKK, could someone help scale it to my level:

For the main quest I've cleared the Black Crawler base with Gorsky and the Zone Rats, but all they have to say is that they need to lay low for a while. When I returned a merchant had appeared, but they still had nothing more for me to do. I tried taking the trains back and forth to see if any progress were made, but there was none. Is progress dependent on real time passing (like merchants restocking) or some other quest?

Following the Rail Crossing quest I've been tasked by Tanner to get the Faceless artifact. I'm supposed to find the Acid Hunters, and I'm lost. The only hints to their whereabouts from Gene the bartender and Jon the Beautiful are that they're hiding and something about the docks. I've found nothing at the docks, and I've searched through all of the sewers (that weren't locked behind key-dependent doors). I've searched the city as best I could, hoping they're not locked behind a scripted door. Tanner thought one of the corporations could help, but the corporation I've chosen can't help me because I'm stuck in that questline too.

In the JKK questline, I helped Vivian repair the power generator in the old Biocorp facility. When I returned to Ola he told me she was a Coretech spy and had been dealt with, and that was the end to that. I can get no more quests from Ola (the only dialogue available with him is a single exit dialogue-node) and it feels like I should be contacted by Vivian or someone else to continue the questline, but nothing has happened. I looked at the bar, at her father's shop, at all the places I've been sent to in the JKK quests. I also used the communicator in all those places, on every level of Core City, as well as outside the city. No response. Is this a bug, is there supposed to be a scripted scene when you exit the JKK HQ or something? Or is the questline just on hold until I complete more of the main quest?

I'll keep fighting in the arena until I figure out how to proceed.
 

Ent

Savant
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
539
I always read about how amazing smg damage gets latter on but I keep thinking about how much damage some of the later enemies can absorb when I did my sniper run. Am I missing something here? Am I supposed to be using a certain feat on to bring out the damage or am I just supposed to run around with a pile of tungsten bullets?
 

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