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Blobbers - what's the appeal?

V_K

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can we reall go around branding both rogue-likes AND blobbers dungeon crawlers?
I don't think anyone does that, i.e. understands "dungeon crawlers" as "blobbers and roguelikes". It's a much wider and rather loosely defined category, including also isometric and top-down titles (e.g. The Summoning or Trazere duology) and games like Ultima Underworld. I think the main difference between dungeon crawlers and non-dungeon crawlers lies in how minute-to-minute goals are communicated: the former do it mostly through level design, while the latter - through NPC interactions (quests). So theoretically I think its possible to do a blobber or a rogue-like that wouldn't be a dungeon crawler, I just can't think of an example.
 

Fowyr

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that's something i've always wanted to discuss V_K:

- rogue-likes are dungeon crawlers.
- blobbers are also dungeon crawlers.
- rogue-likes are a template / list of features that can be hybridized onto other genres that are not dungeon crawlers
Roguelike have clear and limited definition as well. They just more vulnerable to hybridization, so that's why modern "I'm roguelike!" bandwagon exist. All these roguelike-hybrids are no more real roguelike than Strife or SS2 ( :troll: ) is RPG.

my point is: can we reall go around branding both rogue-likes AND blobbers dungeon crawlers? even though they both feature dungeon crawling they are wildly different genres that have somewhat little cross-over appeal between fanbases of the two genres.
I tell you another thing. As it was already said in this thread, there are different kind of blobbers that should be not confused as well. Clicky-clicky "I see dragon, I walk to dragon, I kill dragon" and "your stalwart band of misfits encounters 24 unwashed orcs". They are both blobbers per definition (first person and party is "blob"), but they are horses of different color.

also in rogue-likes dungeon design itself isn't primarily lauded as much as it is in a (preferably turn-based) blobber 'crawler because rogue-likes feature stuff that takes priority over navigational puzzles.
Some roguelikes sometimes have fixed levels with manually designed dungeons. ADOM, for example.

i liked the game well enough but i believe games with that type of strategic top-down view combat, (like final fantasy tactics :D), are also in yet another sub-genre of dungeon crawlers.
You don't say! :lol:

So theoretically I think its possible to do a blobber or a rogue-like that wouldn't be a dungeon crawler, I just can't think of an example.
Unreal World. Very old versions, afair, even had ASCII graphics. ;)
 
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being bipolar type i can have it's benefits: ever since Richard999 introduced me into the world of hex-editing I have been these past few weeks on an "upswing" of manic energy spending sleepless nights educating myself and learning through trial and error how to translate shit. Right now i've got like 8 tabs open next to this one hopefully one of which will tell me how to assemble a PSP ISO back together after you extract its contents to modify them.

I spent the last hour or so translating all of the dungeon names in Elminage 2 for the PSP. it was some good work, but definitely not healthy living. And the point of this blog/post was to note how people like me, when we get obsessive with something like this (thankfully this time it's only translation... and i'll just leave it at that) everything else dimms and it's very hard to draw enjoyment out of things that even up to a few days ago one was enjoying. That's a big reason why so many bipolar people are also drug addicts, by the way.

point is i think having been awake for almost 33 hours straight has definitely rocked my brain cells and it's kind of sad this is literally the only place i can go to to express these feelings. heh.

Take a breath, stop pause and think - I'm being serious here. As a fellow traveller with your condition, surely you're aware that computer games and extended exposure to monitors/screens in general are an absolute no-no when you're having an upswing of sufficient severity to make sleep impossible. I'm lucky in that my upswings only take me up to hypomanic, when you can still be genuinely productive. Given that your post appears quite rational, I'm assuming that you're on a hypomanic swing rather than full one, but seriously, stop and think: if you were in a mid/normal mood state right now, what would you tell yourself about spending time on computer games / electronic screens when you're upswinging with enough severity that you haven't slept for 33 hours?

I'm pretty sure that you'd be saying that you should be ultra careful to avoid that shit, because (a) if you are still in hypomanic, rather than manic, mode, then you should be using that energy for something more productive than gaming. Genuinely productive hypomania is the one great upside of this condition - extended gaming/internet stints should be for when you're on a downswing and want to tune out.

And (b) that you certainly shouldn't be doing anything that increases the risk of crossing the hypomanic/manic line, because if you do cross that line, you're going to be trading those productive hypomanic periods for daily lithium pills.

I know you're feeling on top of the world right now, but just think about this seriously - you're doing stuff that you ordinarily know to be unhealthy. Either you're hypomanic and being terribly unwise, or you're in full blown manic mode and unable to tell whether or not you're doing serious damage to yourself. Maybe you're fine, I don't know you and I don't know your particular mental state or your history. But just take a deep breath and think about it.
 
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I think the appeal of blobbers is they're faster paced and--for those who don't like combat much--a potential way to keep combat minimal. Otherwise, I think it's the ol' real-time versus turn-based argument. Turn-based games, by their nature, are friendlier to methodical, detail-oriented actions. They slow things down and if you're not patient with mechanically arranging tactical and strategic nodes piece by piece then it's not for you.

If there's such a thing as a person who thinks in technical systematic terms and is ok with microamangeing small details, and also such a thing as a person who hates to micromanage small details--then maybe we have an answer?

I first started programming when I was a freshman or sophmore in HS. I never stopped. I think technical games were just the programmer in me wanting something fun to do which was also technical. I found most of my enjoyment in military simulations and strategy/builder/war games. I loved both because of their technical natures.

I also think I'm a perfectionist. I get obsessive about small details and trying to get them right. That's the darker side of me. I'd like to think I was a genius and could compensate my shortfalls, but I don't. This isn't a TV show like STar Trek where techie nerds like myself can always pull something amazing and make everybody forget my shortcomings. No I have a lot of shortcomings, a long sorry list. And the list of accomplishments are too small and far between to rescue this lost soul.

The truth is, computers and technical things were my drug, not my saviour. I knew it.
 
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Deleted Member 16721

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Blobbers are great.

I think the appeal is that they simply offer a slower, more methodical approach to exploration. Grid-based games just lay a great foundation of comparmentalized exploration that simply works great in a dungeon setting.

A 19x19 grid can be endlessly fascinating depending on how it's built. Then you add special event tiles, item tiles, treasure tiles, random and scripted encounters, and you have a cacophany of beautiful RPG-ness that just begs to be explored.

Whether it's turn-based or real-time, you also get a true sense of immersion in the world around you, thanks to the first person perspective.

They're just great, man. Try Elminage Gothic and become a convert of the Church of the Blobber today! :)
 
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Blobbers are great.

I think the appeal is that they simply offer a slower, more methodical approach to exploration. Grid-based games just lay a great foundation of comparmentalized exploration that simply works great in a dungeon setting.

A 19x19 grid can be endlessly fascinating depending on how it's built. Then you add special event tiles, item tiles, treasure tiles, random and scripted encounters, and you have a cacophany of beautiful RPG-ness that just begs to be explored.

Whether it's turn-based or real-time, you also get a true sense of immersion in the world around you, thanks to the first person perspective.

They're just great, man. Try Elminage Gothic and become a convert of the Church of the Blobber today! :)
My interpretation of "blobber" is it's just removing combat tactical detail in favor of fast action. You don't have to think about party positioning. It's one less thing to think about. This is a feature, not a deficit, to many.

So I'm wrong?

Honestly, if I was making a first person game and wanted party members, I'd probably blob them together too. Not because I like it, but because it might be easier to code. Not having to position them in the code and not having to render them or give them animations and whatnot. I'm sure there're many benefits, like less pathfinding concerns and AI issues. Companiions can be hard to do RIGHT in games. Broadly, it frees you up to abstract it and be more creative.

And hey I understand your comment about immersion. I like first-person too.
 
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aweigh

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um, party positioninig is extremely important in any blobber.

the first 3 slots are the front row, and the remaining 3 slots are the back row. front row enemies cannot reach back row allies unless they're using long-ranged weaponry; they can only reach front-row allies and vice-versa for the allies.

back row allies cannot reach front row enemies unless they're using long-ranged weaponry or spells and have to worry less about protection because the amount of enemy types that can reach them is of less quantity than the amount of enemy types that can reach the first 3 slots, i.e. the front row.

all of this is of course subject to the skill of the person playing since if you don't tactically resolve the enemy conflict you could FUBAR yourself into a situation in which you're exposing your back row to the enemies front row; and there are also spells available both to the player and to the enemy that scramble row positioning.

the agility-equivalent attribute is also a big strategic element in blobber combat due to the simple fact that you want your characters capable of support, i.e. usually the ones placed in the back row, to act faster in the turn order than the enemy or your front row allies.

i think you're talking out of your ass belowmecoldhands and should do more research on blobbers before posting again.

EDIT: and this is all a very general deconstruction of traditional blobber combat. every blobber features varying degrees of depth to the differing rows and ranges of weaponry and spells and skills available.

in reality the abstraction of positioning that occurs in a blobber grants the game designers the ability to introduce more tactical depth to the game mechanics due to the layers of abstraction that aren't limited by the simulationist approach present in war-games, as an example. but of course we are comparing apples and oranges here: as the one single thing you got right-- the fact that the blobber combat approach is meant to be FAST PACED-- does not apply to war-games.
 
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aweigh

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i apologize if it seemd i was attacking you belowmecoldhands i was just angered by your implication that fans of blobber combat are be default less intelligent.

EDIT: all this considered i think blobber-type combat is probably the best compromise between tactical, strategical and speed of conflict resolution parity available to the RPG combat game designer. some other approaches are more of one of those 3 categories but no other approach to RPG combat reaches the happy medium betweel all 3 categories (strategy/tactics/pacing) that the blobber approach does.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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My interpretation of "blobber" is it's just removing combat tactical detail in favor of fast action. You don't have to think about party positioning. It's one less thing to think about. This is a feature, not a deficit, to many.

So I'm wrong?

Honestly, if I was making a first person game and wanted party members, I'd probably blob them together too. Not because I like it, but because it might be easier to code. Not having to position them in the code and not having to render them or give them animations and whatnot. I'm sure there're many benefits, like less pathfinding concerns and AI issues. Companiions can be hard to do RIGHT in games. Broadly, it frees you up to abstract it and be more creative.

And hey I understand your comment about immersion. I like first-person too.

Well, you're wrong in the sense that "fast action" is the primary reason for blobber combat. For one.

Blobber combat can still be tactically interesting. Take Elminage Gothic for example. You have a D&D style spell system, with many different types of spells ranging from buffs to de-buffs to death spells and all in between. Then you have enemies who also have special skills and aren't afraid to use them. So, you may come across an enemy that doesn't attack for a lot of damage, but has the ability to behead your characters. Or an enemy that can poison your entire party. The possibilities are endless and EG explores them thoroughly. Combat as a result is tactical in that you need to hit the enemy with the right spells and also fight against an enemy who uses tactics on you.

Combat in this sense can still be very strategic and time-consuming.

Now, removing movement is not a real loss here. Of course, you have Bard's Tale IV coming out which promises to add some movement elements, and also games like the Realms of Arkania trilogy, which add movement to the combat. Removing it in a typical blobber is not really a removal that causes a defecit.

While it would be nice to add a tactical grid, say, to Elminage Gothic, you do have to deal with front and back rows in the game already. Both your characters and the enemy have rows, so some of that would get muddled and lost in an all-out free-for-all style movement system.

So, would you rather deal strategically with rows, or deal strategically with character movement? It's a bit of a give-give situation and comes down to personal preference. I'm not saying I love one over the other, at all. I think both systems have their merits. But blobbers are not naturally deficient because they lack character movement of other turn-based games. Where they lack in character movement they make up in other areas. So it basically comes down to personal preference.

I find that I can enjoy pretty much any RPG combat system as long as it offers the (and I say this lovingly) "nerdy" RPG elements that I dig. EG delivers nerdy elements, free customization and exploration and experimentation, just like Baldur's Gate or Realms of Arkania does.

Personal preference is really the bottom line here.

And in my opinion, first-person perspective is always a bit more immersive. I really don't care for 3rd person that much. I even played my recent Gothic 2 Let's Play entirely in first-person for this reason. It's just more immersive and you can feel the world a bit better when you're viewing things in the first-person perspective.
 

octavius

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And in my opinion, first-person perspective is always a bit more immersive. I really don't care for 3rd person that much. I even played my recent Gothic 2 Let's Play entirely in first-person for this reason.

You can do that? :bounce:
 

kwanzabot

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idk i think blobbers are fking boring too i just dont think wandering around shit areas killing millions of the same enemies over and over again looking for the same loot is fun


only blobbers i think i beat were might and magic 6-7-8 cos u could hold down a button and delete all the shit mobs in front of you instead of watching your life waste away in front of you
 
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aweigh

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i have never seen a good post from kwanzabot. even his name is not funny.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
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I bet he loves amazing RPGs like Call of Duty. :troll:
 
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i apologize if it seemd i was attacking you belowmecoldhands i was just angered by your implication that fans of blobber combat are be default less intelligent.

EDIT: all this considered i think blobber-type combat is probably the best compromise between tactical, strategical and speed of conflict resolution parity available to the RPG combat game designer. some other approaches are more of one of those 3 categories but no other approach to RPG combat reaches the happy medium betweel all 3 categories (strategy/tactics/pacing) that the blobber approach does.
Ya I spoke prematurely. I'm not familiar with the word. I've seen popamole b4 (in this forum). I googled "blobber" after I made those posts in posted a reply in a separate blobber thread about logistics being one of the things I enjoy in games.

I've played several blobbers. I played Might and Magic VII and some Wizardry 6 and the 8 demo. I'm also playing The Ur-Quan Masters right now and in many ways it's like a blobber, since my teammates fight separately, not together. I've enjoyed these games mostly and didn't think of them as fast-paced, so sorry for using that word. However, I didn't like the sometimes impossible fights in the Wizardry game. But impossible fights are not unique to blobbers, as I've seen them in JA2 and Fallout and others. Impossible fights--I think--are also more common in RPGs with non-scaled monsters in open worlds.

(Btw I did overall like Wizardry 6/8 and MM7. I'll probably try again someday--esp Wizardry 6. What I liked about Wizardry 6 is it had a good vibe and lot of content to see. I also liked how disabling/lockpicking worked.)

Comparing them to non-blobber games like BG and JA2 and Fallout and PST and Darklands and others, I think I do prefer controlling my teammates individually, but therer're times when I wonder if it's more work than tactics. I also thinik UI matters--a lot. JA2 has a better UI than BG for controlling my party. I'ts frustrating sometimes. Fallout is much worse--hirelings are almost unusable. However, ocassionally I'll have a great battle in one of them and forgive everything.

Blobbers are still fun. I think logistics is the most important thing to me. I like to manage stuff. Broadly, I think team management is not any different than juggling other things. It's the games which remove all of the juggling and make it more about jumping and sprinting and shooting which don't appeal as mcuh. Like Mario Brothers style games.

Another thing I like to do in games is explore every nook and cranny. It's my nature. I like to know therre're things in the world I don't know about or missed. I don't like things to be shown to me. Maybe it's another form of juggling? Not sure. I think it has more to do with me just liking it when a game hides stuff from me. Somehow it's more appealing.
 
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aweigh

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both logistics micro and macro and "exploring every nook and cranny" are two of the most elemental layers of the blobber dungeon crawler; both the turn-bsased branch AND its real-time branch!

so strike two.

lol in fact games like Wizardry are primarily ABOUT resource management AND logistics!

why the hell do you think spells disappear when used? hahaa
 
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aweigh

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loool jesus i'm laughing so hard it's like you're actually trying to actively troll the entire thread with your posts

you actually picked the two basic foundations upon wihch the entire genre of the blobber is built upon; resource management and exploration and said their lack of these features is why you don't get blobbers. get the fuck out of here

EDIT: perhaps it appears it was poor syntax on your part and you actually meant the opposite: that it is these two facts that appeal to you most about the blobber? and i am reading your post incorrectly? if so i apologizie; but if you read your final two paragraphs it is impossible to know whether you are listing these things that appeal to you as things that are found or not found in the blobber.

you also wrote one paragraph about unit management and once again, it is impossible to tell whether you are saying that blobbers somehow don't feature individual unit management or DO feature individual management??? they were the first games to actually feature individual unit management in a computer rpg so...?? that's why you're entire post is 100% incoherent.

you talk about these core features in paragraphs that leave the reader confused because there seems to be an implication that somehow individual unit management, micro and macro logistics and exploration are not the definining features of the blobber. if you manage to do THAT when writing about blobbers it says a LOT.

tl;dr it basically just seems like you've just never played any blobbers and are posting in this thread for some reason other than to discuss. one cannoy engage in discussion without being at least academically informed on a subject.
 
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DefJam101

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wizardry-style blobbers actually have solid combat flow compared to the majority of grid-based games. the lack of a convoluted movement phase tends to make protracted combat more tolerable despite the diminished complexity imo

even in something like wizardry 8, which has pseudo-positioning and a full 3d world, enemies are only ever moving toward/away from/around your party which helps crazy 25-turn combats feel like less of a slog
 
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aweigh

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wiz 8 definitely is a blobber but it's definitely not a true wiz title. but that's a completely different discussion for a completely different thread.

we should all maintain our focus on how ignorant belowmecoldhands' posts are. :kingcomrade:
 

Deleted Member 16721

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both logistics micro and macro and "exploring every nook and cranny" are two of the most elemental layers of the blobber dungeon crawler; both the turn-bsased branch AND its real-time branch!

so strike two.

lol in fact games like Wizardry are primarily ABOUT resource management AND logistics!

why the hell do you think spells disappear when used? hahaa

I find this to be very true.

In my Elminage Gothic gameplay review on my YT channel, I talk about the management aspects of the game.

Early on, you have to manage your resources extremely carefully, because not only do you need to make it deep into a dungeon, you also have to fight your way out. Combine this with respawning enemies when you leave and re-enter a dungeon floor, and all of a sudden your management skills are front and center.

You have to manage your characters health, supplies (with limited inventory space), as well as your spells. A game like Elminage Gothic is the ultimate party management game.

As for exploring every nook and cranny, that is also a must in Elminage Gothic, and highly encouraged. Missing one single tile in a dungeon could mean not triggering a quest or missing an important quest item.

Exploration and party management are king in the blobber world. Two big reasons why I love the sub-genre so much.
 

Lady_Error

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Dungeon Hack.

I think that's the only half-decent "blobber" with procedurally generated dungeons. It's not a real blobber though, since it's a one-person party - despite using the Eye of the Beholder mechanics and graphics.
 

octavius

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And then there's blobbers which looks they had mostly procedurally generated dungeons, like Silvern Castle. First scenario, at least; the second one was a major improvement.
 
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aweigh

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well making a "dungeon" isn't that easy. i mena, it is very easy to make a maze, and it is very hard to make a video game dungeon.

all you need to make a maze is link together 2 or 3 spirals/vortices/kernels utilizing branched cells. the process of turning that maze into an anctual "level" though is a completely different skill set.

er, i don't have any point to make. i think we've already talked about procedural dungeon generation.

it would be interesting to see it tried with modern technology though; i mean silvern castle is almost 25 years old or more.
 

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