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Is Irenicus a good villain?

kwanzabot

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Aug 29, 2009
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"Liked BG2 back when I was young. Now I'm 20-something and I've outlived it all."

I'm interested in games you play that could be far superior to BG2. I also wish I had met enlightenment at your age.

only saw this now but off the top of my head games i played when i was between the age of 10-16 that i've replayed fairly(3-4 years) recently and still liked

fallout 1/2
ja2
arcanum
deus ex 1
pst
system shock games(1 nt really an rpg)
bg1(to an extent)


theres probably some others im forgetting but those games for the most part have grounded characters that speak like real people and have real intentions that even if i dont agree with them and want to stop them i can sort of understand where they're coming from



jon "exiled elf likes to kill shit and torture you and your super friends just cus" irenicus doesnt speak like a real person or have realistic motivations, hes just some bald retard that fucks with you and is apparently super powerful


not to mention that game has too much weird e dating with the characters, i first played bg2 when i was like 11 or 12 maybe and when i beat it then when aerie and jaheira tried to hit on my character or minsc spoke like a retard i didn't really give a shit because fuck it why not, 1 bitch wants her wings back other wants to replace khalids dick fair play whatever


when i replayed it a couple years later im pretty sure i killed all 3 of them and kicked them all from the party cos by age 16 or so i'd realized they were all faggots and retards


theres a couple good quests in bg2 and some good characters but for the most part its bioware's original super gritty retard drama, fallout 1/2 are darker then bg2 could ever hope to be but when i replay them i don't feel like im living out some man childs fantasy



hope that clears things up for you, the way you posted you make it sound like you're a fair bit older then me(im 25) if you're over 35 you're probably a pathetic loser so i don't really give a shit what you say back :)


keep dreaming you cant be contained or controlled though bro, fuck it just do you
 
Last edited:

Volourn

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Malpercio

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i have a feeling alot of people really like irenicus because they played bg2 when they were like 12/13/young and

"i will not be contained"
"i will not be controlled"

and it made them feel badass, i know i thought he was kind of badass when i played bg2 as a kid but when i replayed it years after i thought he was kinda cringe


there's plenty of way worse villains though, i liked serevok in bg1 alot more though, felt alot more menacing to me, like how the plot was more intricate/low key and less in your face grim drama

both had good voice actors though

Judging by the public's reception to comic book movies - which are full of characters similar to Irenicus - and age studies, you can't just argue that people simply "grow out of" Irenicus style power fantasies. A wide variety of research has shown that the geeks of thirty years ago have simply become thirty years older geeks today. Stating that you could only enjoy Irenicus back when you were 12-13 is a mistake. That might be the case on an individual basis, but it's not the case across the market. Why else do you think Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition sold over a million copies?

We have this concept of age and "maturity" that is incredibly out dated with respect to the actual population of power fantasy consumers today. The average video game player is 37 years old. Take that in for a bit, and then look at the top selling games. Just because they're getting older, does not indicate they're moving on to Tolstoy.

You guys are conveniently remembering the worst quote by Irenicus. But he had much better moments:

"You rest each night uneasy. Yes, you are weary. You struggle daily. It will not end, you know. Not until you acknowledge what you are. You walk as a mortal, taking no advantage from your heritage, from your talents within. So many things of flesh are greater than you. Walk among them, these beasts that are less than you are. See their strength; see how easily you fall to their muscle and skill.
Why do you stand for this? Why do you submit to the flesh, when death is bred in your bones? Do you realize the power you might hold? When the world of flesh is beneath you, even creatures mysterious and magical will fall!
Follow, and receive the gift you are owed by the blood in your veins.
Follow, if only to protect the weak that fell because of you. "

"Life... is strength. This is not to be contested; it seems logical enough. You live; you affect the world around you.
This woman lives and has strength of a sort. She lost her parents to plague, her husband to war, but she persevered. She was well respected, her farm was prosperous and her children were well fed. She lived as she thought she should. And now she is dead. Her land will be divided, her children will move on, and she will be forgotten. She lived a good life, but she had no power. She was a slave to death."

Wasn't that your soul speaking to you, though?
 

pippin

Guest
Irenicus is cool because he was voiced by David Warner.
Outside that, he's just a faggot. His introduction is cool, but his ultimate motivation is really bland to be honest. Plus the endgame fight was ridiculous.
 
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Fine character, but a little mismatched to the Bhaalspawn's character arc.

What I mean is that that getting this intricate story about elvenkind deeply involved in the Bhaalspawn Saga felt a little awkward and unfocused. His deepest resonance with the broader saga was that he was attempting to probe the nature of Bhaalspawns to discover if they could be used a power source to effect his crazy revenge, therefore forcing the player/protagonist to "learn" what it meant to be Bhaalspawn. To that extent he was effective. All of that stuff about elven essence didn't serve much purpose other than illustrating that the Forgotten Realms isn't an entirely human-centric setting. It feels that you could have reimagined him into a similar character that pertained more directly to Bhaal or the Time of Troubles.

I think that in theory there was supposed to be some kind of resonance because of Irencius's lack of elven essence functioned as a strange counterpoint to the protagonist's disguised god essence, but it didn't quite come through for me.
 
Last edited:

Atlantico

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Irenicus is cool because he was voiced by David Warner.
Outside that, he's just a faggot. His introduction is cool, but his ultimate motivation is really bland to be honest. Plus the endgame fight was ridiculous.

That's my take on it as well, David Warner is always fantastic, but even he can't make the character of Irenicus less generic/emo that he actually is. It's pretty sad to see in the end that all his power was derived from the script, not actually by being powerful. His motivations are pretty hazy, his mask is bland, his line delivery: excellent!

i liked serevok in bg1 alot more though, felt alot more menacing to me, like how the plot was more intricate/low key and less in your face grim drama

Sarevok felt, if nothing else, more real. He was human, on your level, which yeah made him pretty more intimidating than an emo elf which relies on the script for superpowers. I didn't feel he was anything except an ever moving obstacle. Not intimidating. Kinda annoying, perhaps.

What I mean is that that getting this intricate story about elvenkind deeply involved in the Bhaalspawn Saga felt a little awkward and unfocused

My feeling has always been that BG2 was never supposed to be BG2 and the plot was stapled to BG pretty late in development. Imagine BG2 as a standalone game, without any connection to BG, it would change the first five minutes and the last fifteen minutes of the game/plot.

I think marketing/Interplay needed a guaranteed hit, and didn't want to take any chances.
 

Theldaran

Liturgist
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only saw this now but off the top of my head games i played when i was between the age of 10-16 that i've replayed fairly(3-4 years) recently and still liked

fallout 1/2
ja2
arcanum
deus ex 1
pst
system shock games(1 nt really an rpg)
bg1(to an extent)


theres probably some others im forgetting but those games for the most part have grounded characters that speak like real people and have real intentions that even if i dont agree with them and want to stop them i can sort of understand where they're coming from



jon "exiled elf likes to kill shit and torture you and your super friends just cus" irenicus doesnt speak like a real person or have realistic motivations, hes just some bald retard that fucks with you and is apparently super powerful


not to mention that game has too much weird e dating with the characters, i first played bg2 when i was like 11 or 12 maybe and when i beat it then when aerie and jaheira tried to hit on my character or minsc spoke like a retard i didn't really give a shit because fuck it why not, 1 bitch wants her wings back other wants to replace khalids dick fair play whatever


when i replayed it a couple years later im pretty sure i killed all 3 of them and kicked them all from the party cos by age 16 or so i'd realized they were all faggots and retards


theres a couple good quests in bg2 and some good characters but for the most part its bioware's original super gritty retard drama, fallout 1/2 are darker then bg2 could ever hope to be but when i replay them i don't feel like im living out some man childs fantasy



hope that clears things up for you, the way you posted you make it sound like you're a fair bit older then me(im 25) if you're over 35 you're probably a pathetic loser so i don't really give a shit what you say back :)


keep dreaming you cant be contained or controlled though bro, fuck it just do you
No one ever said BG2's story was Shakespeare tier. Even as a revenge story it needs more pizazz. Anyway that doesn't bar the game being damn fun and entertaining. The appeal is the combat system, the area and quest design and the chance to play mid-to-high level D&D. If you don't like any of that it's understandable you'll find it abysmal and horribly overrated.

It's just not a game for storyfags, it never was. As for characters, they inherit their guidelines (and some whole characters) from the first part. If anything there's uneven distribution of content between them. Valygar is only sketched and he's a fairly uninteresting and undeveloped character. Seems his writer wasn't feeling creative.
 

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
only saw this now but off the top of my head games i played when i was between the age of 10-16 that i've replayed fairly(3-4 years) recently and still liked

fallout 1/2
ja2
arcanum
deus ex 1
pst
system shock games(1 nt really an rpg)
bg1(to an extent)


theres probably some others im forgetting but those games for the most part have grounded characters that speak like real people and have real intentions that even if i dont agree with them and want to stop them i can sort of understand where they're coming from



jon "exiled elf likes to kill shit and torture you and your super friends just cus" irenicus doesnt speak like a real person or have realistic motivations, hes just some bald retard that fucks with you and is apparently super powerful


not to mention that game has too much weird e dating with the characters, i first played bg2 when i was like 11 or 12 maybe and when i beat it then when aerie and jaheira tried to hit on my character or minsc spoke like a retard i didn't really give a shit because fuck it why not, 1 bitch wants her wings back other wants to replace khalids dick fair play whatever


when i replayed it a couple years later im pretty sure i killed all 3 of them and kicked them all from the party cos by age 16 or so i'd realized they were all faggots and retards


theres a couple good quests in bg2 and some good characters but for the most part its bioware's original super gritty retard drama, fallout 1/2 are darker then bg2 could ever hope to be but when i replay them i don't feel like im living out some man childs fantasy



hope that clears things up for you, the way you posted you make it sound like you're a fair bit older then me(im 25) if you're over 35 you're probably a pathetic loser so i don't really give a shit what you say back :)


keep dreaming you cant be contained or controlled though bro, fuck it just do you
No one ever said BG2's story was Shakespeare tier. Even as a revenge story it needs more pizazz. Anyway that doesn't bar the game being damn fun and entertaining. The appeal is the combat system, the area and quest design and the chance to play mid-to-high level D&D. If you don't like any of that it's understandable you'll find it abysmal and horribly overrated.

It's just not a game for storyfags, it never was. As for characters, they inherit their guidelines (and some whole characters) from the first part. If anything there's uneven distribution of content between them. Valygar is only sketched and he's a fairly uninteresting and undeveloped character. Seems his writer wasn't feeling creative.


i never said it was abysmal, i dont even dislike the game i just don't think it's a god tier game like some people make it out to be, and i don't think irenicus is that great of a villain even if he's better then some of the other trash in games


my issue with bg2 was how fast the content went downhill after chapter 2/3 and turned into a shitty linear slugfest against mostly annoying enemies that weren't fun to fight




if i had to rate bg2 i'd prolly give it like a 7/10, never said i hated it lol
 

Theldaran

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
1,772
That "you" was generic, it can be applied to anyone.

The problem is that by the end of the game you're probably way too much powerful, but that's high level D&D. Probably same reason why many people love BG1 dearly.

Anyway, you can leave quests to be completed later. Most of the levelling is done in the main quest, however.

When sitting around deciding what to do with the game, I think they wanted to give continuity to the Bhaalspawn saga, but they didn't know what to do. The ties with BG1 are loose enough. But I really don't think they wanted to tell a separate story and sell it under the BG trademark, BG2 is just the best they could manage for a sequel. Many sequels don't respect previous games, or vary wildly in terms of quality, such as the shitty Master of Orion 3 as opposed to the second part.
 

Atlantico

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When sitting around deciding what to do with the game, I think they wanted to give continuity to the Bhaalspawn saga, but they didn't know what to do. The ties with BG1 are loose enough. But I really don't think they wanted to tell a separate story and sell it under the BG trademark, BG2 is just the best they could manage for a sequel. Many sequels don't respect previous games, or vary wildly in terms of quality, such as the shitty Master of Orion 3 as opposed to the second part.

I get what you're saying and you're probably right, but it's more than just the story that makes me suspicious of the "original" intent for the game now known as BG2, it's also the art style and assets. They take a long time to make and are among the first things that have to be worked on. After making most of them, and if they then changed direction, to connect "Shadows of Amn an AD&D adventure" to Baldur's Gate, there would be littel time to change the art assets or the setting (Amn?).

So imagine, after making MDK2 and kinda flopping it, they set out to make another chapter in a Forgotten Realms anthology. Something more epic than Baldur's Gate, which had become a runaway success. They start making art assets and writing a plot and are well on the way to complete that project when Interplay becomes financially desperate. Which they were at the time. So Bioware's publisher demands/requests that they make the game a sequel to the already known brand Baldur's Gate.

Bioware scrambles to use the art assets and most of the plot, retcons some plot threads and boom. BG2.

I just find BG2 to be so alien from BG (apart from the IE and AD&D) that I find it within reason that it wasn't always planned as a BG sequel, but rather appropriated as one.
 

Theldaran

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Well BG2 was gonna happen eventually, in any form. Back in the day people were stunned with the first part, and I think it sold well. Maybe they wanted to do an altogether different thing, and so the little connection to BG1. Setting wise, Amn is neighboring the area in BG1. In Nashkell, you can hear soldiers shouting "for the glory of Amn".

It can't just be Baldur's Gate anymore, since you've already visited and saved the city in the first game. Having another iron plague, another Sarevok again, feels repetitive and disingenuous. Any further threat upon the city would have felt trite. Take for example the Icewind Dales, years pass between games and the parties are different.

But your theory can't either be proven or disproven. There was much turmoil in Black Isle those years.
 

Quigs

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David Warner did a great job at adding weight to the character. In a purely textual adventure, the character wouldn't be nearly as good.
 

Mexi

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You lost me when you said Irenicus was more one-dimensional than Minsc.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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I always loose any respect I may have built up for him when he kills that elf that recognizes him in front of the matron right after saying he should be kept alive.

Matron : Kill him !
Irenicus : Don't kill him.
Elf : Jon...
Irenicus : Die ! Sorry matron mother you were right.
:roll:

Only a (clean) glass window is that transparent.
 

oldmanpaco

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I always loose any respect I may have built up for him when he kills that elf that recognizes him in front of the matron right after saying he should be kept alive.

Matron : Kill him !
Irenicus : Don't kill him.
Elf : Jon...
Irenicus : Die ! Sorry matron mother you were right.
:roll:

Only a (clean) glass window is that transparent.

Yeah that was the first time you saw him show fear/uncertainty. Up until that point he was always in control and always seemed to have a plan. It was a bit jarring when he did that.

fake edit: Also I would just like to add that Irenicus is one of the few video game villains I clearly remember. To be honest him and Blackthorne are probably the only two I could talk about.
 

Konjad

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I liked Sarevok in the original BG. He was evil. A kind of clever evil, using people to achieve his ends, and he had a good reasons to do what he did.

Irenicus felt to me just like a pathetic emo faggot that the writer wanted to also make "intelligent" but it only felt even more out of place and retarded. I very much disliked him and the whole BG2 story.
 
Unwanted

Jaklon

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I never really "got" Irenicus. First off they keep him very mysterious. Ok fine. Guy voicing him is really cool sounding and he looks menacing as hell. Awesome.

Then I go through the game and he is always one step ahead. Ho hum.

Finally I get to the end. Ys! I will get to see what all this bullshit is about! By this time I pretty much forgot what the fuck I am doing all this for anyway.

Turns out he is is actually an elven mage even though he looks like a bodybuilder and sounds like a serial killer wtf? He had his soul stolen by elves...again, what the fuck? And now you have to climb a tree and fight weevils so he can't use your stolen soul to suck dry the god tree or something.

Am I taking crazy pills or something? What in the fuck is that shit. It's like they put off writing him til the end and then spent all night coming up with random bullshit to make him seem oh so deep and threw it all in at the last moment before shipping the game.
 
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Yeah, most people you talk to are absolutely in awe of BG2, so this tends to skew opinions after a while (peer pressure), but while it is a very good all around RPG, I don't think it's as good as people make it out to be. I personally prefer the story in BG1 and the villain as well. As others have mentioned, BG1 story fits in better with the overall arc of the saga, whereas Irenicus's story just distracts from it, before it comes back in Throne of Bhaal. The story in BG1, while not a great example of writing or anything, is good enough to hook the player, is mysterious (why are those assassins following you and how is that tied to the iron shortage and bandit raids) and goes through various twists and turns (mines, bandits, Iron Throne, then finally Sarevok) that keep things fresh. In BG2, on the other hand, you know the whole story in broad strokes from pretty much the beginning. You know the villain, you gets hints about his motivation (the wife's room in the first dungeon), from his experimentation with you, you can pretty much guess what he wants. So it becomes a much duller journey.
 

purpleblob

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I think Irenicus was very memorable and well executed villain. He shows two different sides of himself - cold, emotionless, controlling side as well as uncertain, emotional, hurt side of him, which makes him a human. I think when people are so focused on something that is personal to them, emotion takes them over. Exactly what happened to Irenicus. The whole Ellesime and losing soul thing was very personal affair, it makes sense for him to react the way he does.
 

Gorgon13

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So Irenicus is being judged by the humanistic standards that you elect to utilize in your daily activities.
Interesting.
No thought to the fact that he approaches his ideals from a perspective that you, as a human, are unable to correlate?
Considering Irenicus has a far more introspective analysis of what, through his considerable dealings with fantastical individuals, meet his expectations and what do not, perhaps you would be better off to ask why he is as lenient as he is with those beneath his considerations?
Irenicus quite early in the OC identifies his ambitions. They may be considered spurious and irresolute to you but quite concrete to him.
I suggest that his villainy is established by the fact he has zero consideration with regards for those that are an impediment to his ambition.
Gee, have we seen or heard of that before?
If you require a more determined exposition, perhaps you have become callous to villainy itself ( which is unsurprising in review of both recent escapisms and real world activities).
 

SwiftCrack

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Sarevok is a better villain in the setting of the Baldur's Gate games.

Irenicus is an okay villain (still beats like 99% of jRPG villains for example, even though he shares the emo trope), lifted by a great VA in a time where VA was not all that commonplace in games outside of RPGs.
 

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