Rolling Vs Point-Buying

[Perkel]

Rolling is fun in pnp because it gives your character real weakness that you have to adapt and compensate. Rolled characters generally have more personality.

It is fun even in CRPG. Just faggots don't like to start with feel that they are "worse".

Though some systems completely undermine whole point of it. Especially if you preplan first content.

Fighter in BG 1 with 8 strenght ? can do
Mage with 8 int ? nope.

 

[Lhynn]

I like rolling even if it abused. Point buy means there will always be an optimal distribution for each character class which is irritating.

Yup, death to builds, builds suck the life out of RPGs.

It's still better than reroll like mad, then realize that might as well hexedit it to 18 all and be done with it~

If you dont want same-same point spread, giving more diversified perks/equipment with different requirement will create different builds.

And yet cookie cutter builds will remain there as long as you give the players total control over their character development. And thats boring as fuck.

 

[Shadenuat]

Rolling and other ways of party/game randomisation (beginning in different area) can work as a good alternative difficulty mode.

I played IWD/ToEE and other party games both ways. If I replay party games I almost always make a party in some random way, to experience game without ability to meta the shit out of it right from the beginning.

 

[DraQ]

Rolling seems like a decent way to make more interesting characters and create minor mechanical variety to make things behave somewhat different even if you're bent on reusing some particular build or approach, so I'd say rolling - as long as it isn't BG-esque idiocy where you can freely reallocate points you've rolled, which gives you the worst of both worlds.

I'm not even sure if allowing player to move all the results between stats freely isn't already too permissive - maybe limit swapping to only moving around 1-2 results? Possibly only the highest ones?
Anyway, when in doubt you can always mix and match rolling and point buy.

 

[Curlt]

I like rolling in games like Wizardry where party members are expendable. If someone dies you can dump them and make a new character. In that case the random stats can be pretty interesting. You could have a 7 bonus point shithead or you could roll 20+ and end up with this naturally gifted badass.

But if re-rolling in wizardry 1 didn't make me want to shoot myself I would probably just abuse it and make 6 characters with high rolls.

 

[Average Manatee]

Rolling works in pen and paper, where your group will slap you if you try to reroll and the DM can adjust difficulty to account for shitty characters. On the computer, point buy usually delivers a more interesting experience.

This exactly. PnP is self-correcting with any DM worth their salt. If someone somehow becomes an all-18 wunderkind the DM merely needs to give them slightly worse loot, make them use weapons that they aren't optimally specced for, and so on. If someone gets some horribly disastrous roll with all stats below 12, the DM will probably grant a reroll. As long as players aren't playing exactly the same role (e.g. two fighters specializing in great swords, rare in normal party of 3-5ish), you'll be able to pull this off.

Computer games are completely the opposite. The game can't correct for different PCs' power relative to each other, and the player doesn't want to feel that one of their characters is dragging the whole party down (and its easy to tell when you are controlling all of them).

 

[Lhynn]

Computer games are completely the opposite. The game can't correct for different PCs' power relative to each other, and the player doesn't want to feel that one of their characters is dragging the whole party down (and its easy to tell when you are controlling all of them).

This has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
Regardless, name 1 game where this has been a problem. Name 1 game where the monumental effort and sacrifices required to "fix" this would have been worth it.

 

[Average Manatee]

Computer games are completely the opposite. The game can't correct for different PCs' power relative to each other, and the player doesn't want to feel that one of their characters is dragging the whole party down (and its easy to tell when you are controlling all of them).

This has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
Regardless, name 1 game where this has been a problem. Name 1 game where the monumental effort and sacrifices required to "fix" this would have been worth it.

If you go with 1 roll max then virtually every game has this problem to some extent if you get a really shitty roll. Most players simply reroll if they get something horrible.

Try playing ToEE with these stats:

(My rule for a non-powergamed ToEE party is to roll once and if I don't like the roll I'll use point buy)

 

[Lhynn]

Is that a challenge? because its not particularly hard to beat the game even with those stats.
Also you just proved me right, no game will allow you to go with stats that low, and with full party creation the laws of probability will allow you to do well. Also if you arent happy because the stats are too low, just click on reroll one more time, if you cant do that, then im happy that you arent able to beat the game, really, i am. This "no retard left behind" philosophy is harmful to games, its detrimental to fun, theres literally no sense of acomplishment to be found in beating most new games, and that sucks.

 

[Average Manatee]

By not giving a baseline of how "good" a roll a game is balanced around, the player has no way of knowing whether a game is balanced with a certain stat block, naturally pushing them to just continually reroll until they have above average stats. That's the problem. We're talking first time players.

 

[Ulminati]

Is that a challenge? because its not particularly hard to beat the game even with those stats.

All right, I'll bite. Suppose you have those stats, six times. What would the party that you beat the game with look like?

Assuming you aren't going to go "then we retry this fight until I get x crits", because then you're not easily beating the game.

 

[Lhynn]

Is that a challenge? because its not particularly hard to beat the game even with those stats.

All right, I'll bite. Suppose you have those stats, six times. What would the party that you beat the game with look like?

Non attribute dependant classes like sword and board fighters and maybe some reach weapon fighter/rogues. Itemization is strong enough to support it. You could go with dwarves and half orcs.

 

[Alchemist]

I much prefer rolling - it makes for more dynamic, varied characters and point-buy is just boring and prone to power-gaming munchkinism.
I'd like to see a CRPG that makes you roll 3D6, in order, deal with it. No re-allocation, no application of bonus points. Possibly allow one or two re-rolls but you must accept the results, and they could be worse. In a party-based game (at least 6) the number of characters should offset the issue of having a possibly gimped character. And that gimp might become VIP one day, who knows?

To offset possible "balance issues" (balance is overrated, by the way) - you could add an alert in the beginning saying something like "Hey, FYI your stats suck.. this will raise the difficulty level. Do you accept the challenge? Yes / No". If you choose no, it berates you for being a pussy, but then lets you start a new game.

 

[Average Manatee]

Is that a challenge? because its not particularly hard to beat the game even with those stats.

All right, I'll bite. Suppose you have those stats, six times. What would the party that you beat the game with look like?

Non attribute dependant classes like sword and board fighters and maybe some reach weapon fighter/rogues. Itemization is strong enough to support it. You could go with dwarves and half orcs.

"non attribute dependent classes" lol. Those attributes means you're looking at an entire party with 15 AC max (maybe you'll get as high as 20 AC in the lategame, which is closer to where a level 1 fighter is supposed to start). Literally 0 strength for your AB or Damage means you can't hit shit (enemies with well over 20 AC are in the moathouse) and you can't do much damage when you do hit. You're also looking at no CON bonus, you're getting an average of 4.5 HP/level as a fighter and at least one of your guys is probably going to roll a 1 or 2 HP and go down like baby mages. You're also going to be fucked by anything and everything that requires saving throws. I guess you could just grind until finding +stat items to make someone a cleric capable of casting level 1 spells? lol

Is "itemization" code word for Fragarach and Scather? Because otherwise non-crafted itemization in ToEE is fairly lacking for an all-physical group. Unless you are doing some insane metagaming in the same vein as going to Navarro for Power Armor, or farming XP on random encounters forever, you're pretty screwed.

 

[Lhynn]

Actually fighters get at most 1 to AC point from dex using a full plate. attack is fairly easy to come by for fighters past level 3, so the bonus from STR isnt very important. Using shield means youll be ahead of the curve in terms of AC, the fact that your entire team is composed of people with high HP pools means you can use several of them to tank, the damage from sneak attacks isnt attribute dependant. As for average hp and all that, actually as dwarves you are looking at a 5.5 to 6 health points average for your front liners.
I literally duoed this game, only 2 characters with decent stats, how hard could it be with a full party of mediocre stats. And lets not forget the game does offer recruitable characters to add to your party.

Im going to go ahead and call you both ignorant of the game mechanics and also kind of a cuck.
Also LMAO about the "non crafted itemization being lacking", you have a sword that gets a free attack against anyone that dares attack you, every time it attacks you, add cleave to that and it gets p. lulzy. its arguably better than anything BG2 offers for fighters.

 

[Dorateen]

The one aspect I have not seen addressed in two pages, is the distribution of attributes in order to recreate already established pen and paper characters. This principle was a stated objective from the earliest computer adaptations of Dungeons & Dragons, and the chief reason we have digital re-rolls and point allocation.

I prefer rolling as a method of character generation, and will try to match the numbers as closely to their original character sheets. If games allow for further modification, I can duplicate those party members precisely.

 

[Catfish]

I never roll, always distribute, unless it is a specific condition. I feel like rolling a char is an extra challenge, because that way there is never enough time to properly prepare for the RP. And, to add to that, people who constantly reroll are missing the point of the whole idea

 

[Ulminati]

Is that a challenge? because its not particularly hard to beat the game even with those stats.

All right, I'll bite. Suppose you have those stats, six times. What would the party that you beat the game with look like?

Non attribute dependant classes like sword and board fighters and maybe some reach weapon fighter/rogues. Itemization is strong enough to support it. You could go with dwarves and half orcs.

You'll have an item bottleneck. Plus they won't qualift for power attack (unless you go half-orc and get it at 4, I guess). wouldn't call it an easy win. Especially since you will be hitting bugger all with your low strength and won't have a huge HP pool either. You won't even be able to craft your own items since your pople won't have the int required to learn the spells.

 

[Lhynn]

You are giving STR too much value, its merely a 15% to hit, easily covered by level as creatures AC doesnt tend to go up that much at all and power attack is useless unless you use two handers.

Itl be a bit rough at first, because you rely more on your attributes, but by the end youll barely notice the difference.

 

[Average Manatee]

Actually fighters get at most 1 to AC point from dex using a full plate.

There is armor that is at least +5 AC +3 Dex. A decent fighter is getting at least +2 Dex out of that and is very quickly getting Cat's Grace or something to get them even more.

attack is fairly easy to come by for fighters past level 3, so the bonus from STR isnt very important

wat. Lareth has 22 AC. Your level 3 fighter has a 10% chance to hit per swing. Good luck. Fairly common temple enemies are around 25-28 AC.

Using shield means you'll be ahead of the curve in terms of AC

Not even close? That's 17 AC max until you start finding magical equipment (and it will be forever until you find enough equipment to equip everyone). At your absolute best you are capping at around 20 AC, which is a joke. By level 5 or so an average party has buffed fighters exceeding 30 AC, without shields. And using a shield means completely screwing your damage

the fact that your entire team is composed of people with high HP pools means you can use several of them to tank

1d8 + 0 CON is not high HP pools. Its the same average as 1d4 + 2 CON, an average or slightly above average mage HP pool.

the damage from sneak attacks isnt attribute dependant

Except you have no +AB from stats and going rogue now means medium AB, so you're literally never hitting anything except on natural 20s.

 

[Lhynn]

There is armor that is at least +5 AC +3 Dex. A decent fighter is getting at least +2 Dex out of that and is very quickly getting Cat's Grace or something to get them even more.

Cats grace gives +4, this means you are still only one point short. Again, not the end of the world.

wat. Lareth has 22 AC. Your level 3 fighter has a 10% chance to hit per swing. Good luck.

more like 15% + flanking bonuses that can push it to 35% for some, to a caster that is scripted to cast, therefore providing attacks of opportunity to your party of 6 making 6 attacks per round + 6 attacks of opportunity.
Its a remarkably easy fight for a swarm of fighters.

Not even close? That's 17 AC max until you start finding magical equipment (and it will be forever until you find enough equipment to equip everyone). At your absolute best you are capping at around 20 AC, which is a joke. By level 5 or so an average party has buffed fighters exceeding 30 AC, without shields. And using a shield means completely screwing your damage.

Without magical items with a full plate you have 18 + 1 per dex +2 fer shield at low level. Also if you think +2 extra to the AC will make a difference in a per encounter basis you are fucking delusional, or cannot into math. There is literally no difference in AC for a fighter with dex 26 and one with dex 12 + a full plate.

1d8 + 0 CON is not high HP pools. Its the same average as 1d4 + 2 CON, an average or slightly above average mage HP pool.

Fighters actually get 1d10, dwarven fighters would get 1d10+1. you may mix some barbarian levels for the back liners, rage is a nice bonus and they would get extra hp.

Except you have no +AB from stats and going rogue now means medium AB, so you literally never hitting anything except on natural 20s.

We are talking about 1 or two points in AB in a game where the AC remains mostly static and doesnt make much of a difference, plus you forget them flanking bonuses to attack. Biggest impact would actually be found on delaying your second attack.

We are not talking about a party that could demolish everything, but its certainly doable. Also remember that every member of the party would have access to ranged attacks, so pelting stuff in the first few rounds would be easily doable and its always a winning strategy for the early game, where casters get mostly carried to avoid spam resting. And do remember you get recruitable npcs down the line, with better stats and access to solid spellcasting.

 

[Average Manatee]

You're clearly delusional, feel free to try and prove this

And do remember you get recruitable npcs down the line, with better stats and access to solid spellcasting.

This is pretty much admitting that the characters are useless and need to be carried by the rest of the party. i.e. the point.

 

[Mozg]

I like rolled characters but just the D&D stats isn't really enough randomization to matter in a CRPG full party context. I've played the GBs and EoB 1/2 with first-roll losers and it just causes you to shift to classes/tactics that have the lowest stat dependency*.

Compared to the thoroughgoing randomization of something like DC:SS where an altar or item you find on the second floor can lead to an unexpected path of development for the rest of the game it's nothing.

*Low dexterity in the GBs is really painful because it's used to determine initiative. By the later games, they expected people to modify their stats and your first roll losers will be getting spammed by multiple delayed blast fireballs at the start of every fight.

 

[Ulminati]

Sorry Lhynn. NPCs are cheating. Unless you edit them to have the same stat array I guess. Either way, the only way you're getting that cats grace is through consumables, which will eat further into your already stained budget since the caster loot will be useless to you and your will be short on fighter loot. On top of that, your hit points will be mediocre at best, your saves will be crap and your attack bonus nonexistent.

Face it, you will be chainwiping in the moathouse

 

[Derper]

http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Undersigil

From that link:

"Undersigil is a little break from all the dialogue for combat addicts, the first time through, with a light sprinkling of loot, and after The Nameless One one and party have travelled through the Outer Planes and returned (pretty near the end of the game, so this is about gaining power for the sake of power), it becomes a whole different place.

Welcome to MMO-style super-equipment with abysmally low drop rates as loot from big monsters that themselves have low spawn rates. Not the worst ever by a long shot, mind you, but low. On average, a little more than 1 out of every 20 trips to Undersigil will result in the spawning of a Greater Glabrezu with one of these coveted items: the Aegis of Torment ring, Bell's Shield bracelet, Ring Zero, Umei Kaihen punch dagger, or Heaven and Earth club

Let us break that down. 1/3 chance that either 1 or 2 or Greater Glabrezu will spawn (a little over 25% chance of 1, 5% chance of 2, .5% of 3), with a roughly 15% chance that any of those those Glabrezu will drop one of the items (less than 5% for Aegis, less than 4% each for Bell's and Zero, less than 2% for Umei and less than 1.5% for Heaven)"