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Mod News Fallout 4 Far Harbor DLC contains quest stolen from Codexer-developed New Vegas mod

Skall

Learned
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
86
I don't really see a problem as long they acknowledge the original author so to speak. Could've even been some good pr for them and modder..... but no, they just had to steal it.

Not acknowledging Autumn Leaves -- or any other mods for that matter -- is probably a good thing from Bethesda's legal perspective precisely due to scenarios such as this. Regardless of whether there's any links between the two, you don't want to give any credence to potential lawsuits. Plus, plausible deniability and all that.

On the bright side, this will bring a lot more attention to Chateaubryan's work.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Nice comments:

Uh, this isn't new.

Obsidian, being the awesome people that they are, actually hired modders to help them create New Vegas. If I recall, New Vegas was the first Gamebryo game to have lights coming on at night without requiring a mod (not even Fallout 3 had that). And then there were the animal family systems in New Vegas, which were sublime. Those were created by Oscuro. Yes, he of Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul fame.

This is because Obsidian is awesome.

In Neverwinter Nights 2, Obsidian would often work with modders to get their work included in the main game. Anything from patches to new content. And they always gave them complete credit for their work. I actually loved reading the patch notes for NWN2 because of that, it was fantastic just how much Obsidian themselves loved the modding community.

Now, Bethesda... Sigh. Oh Bethesda.

I saw so much of Fallout 4 that was just ripped right off of New Vegas mods. So much. I mean, the power armour stuff was just basically a slightly updated version of a mix of Project New Vegas and Powered Power Armour. I could barely contain the facepalm. In fact, many of the 'new systems,' even the building systems, were rip offs of New Vegas mods. The settlement system, for example, shared an uncanny amount of common elements with Real Time Settler.

Also, the protectron variety! Such as having bright yellow protectrons at construction sites and such? And having a greater variety of painted up and identified protectrons all over the place? That came from the salvaged protectrons mod, which I'd been using for years to increase protectron variety. (I think it did sentry bots, too.)

A lot of mods were ripped off in Fallout 4 and never credited.

So this? This doesn't surprise me. Not even one bit. Sorry. Ripped off mods is just a way of life in Fallout 4.

Hardly exclusive to Fallout, too. I forget a lot of them by now, but I was astounded how many features there were in Skyrim that were basically 1-to-1 versions of Oblivion mods I used. The really noteworthy one I can remember was the way harvested alchemy ingredients changed their mesh so you can see at a glance that you've already got them. That's just how Bethesda rolls. I'm surprised to see how... direct this instance was though. It was never more than a hunch before.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,151
Chateaubryan should definitely check through to gather the evidence and consult a lawyer to see what they say.

Taking inspiration from something isn't illegal but outright copying anything certainly is. Since Bethesda content should be viewable through the construction kit go through and see if there's anything that looks fishy.

One thing is for certain through.
Well, whatever you make with their Toolset/GECK is already owned by Bethesda so you're shit out of luck as a modder. :shittydog:

EULA's like this are incredibly shaky and if there is any evidence in your favor Bethesda would probably settle with you in court rather than test their EULA's validity.
 

Seerix

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
235
Nothing like a plagiarism drama to lose all enthusiasm for a game. :) And gain some for an interesting mod.

Seriously, unless you can get some legal leverage this is just going to get curb stomped by all the free shills and apologists.
 

DosBuster

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
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Aug 28, 2013
Messages
1,861
Location
God's Dumpster
Codex USB, 2014
EDIT: Just to make Infinitron look even more stupid, that screenshot he posted as "proof" is just a staged shot from the developers, this is how the player actually enters the crime scene in Fallout 4:
https://youtu.be/CV963dGqOsY?t=2m
What fucking video are you watching? He clearly walks through a rolling gate like all vaults.

lfKalh0.png

Idiot, my link had a time-stamp of him entering the atrium, different scene view and layout.
 

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
I wouldn't say shit about this in defense of Bethesda if we could scrape up one person on the whole damn Codex that's actually played both AL and the Brain Dead quest that could write a couple paragraphs about it. Even the modder (and never forget, this guy is a modder, with all that entails) hasn't actually played the BD quest, just watched an LP. Does that not strike anyone else as a ridiculous situation?
 

Chateaubryan

Cipher
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
369
Chateaubryan should definitely check through to gather the evidence and consult a lawyer to see what they say.

Taking inspiration from something isn't illegal but outright copying anything certainly is. Since Bethesda content should be viewable through the construction kit go through and see if there's anything that looks fishy.

One thing is for certain through.
Well, whatever you make with their Toolset/GECK is already owned by Bethesda so you're shit out of luck as a modder. :shittydog:

EULA's like this are incredibly shaky and if there is any evidence in your favor Bethesda would probably settle with you in court rather than test their EULA's validity.

Well, to be honest, my only goal with the original post was to raise awareness about Autumn Leaves. Then, if enough people deemed it good enough, build a community that would support any of my future endeavours, and ultimately spend a non-negligible chunk of my miserable life writing for video games, PREFERABLY MULTI-BRANCHING RPGs. (DOCEX LOVE +++) I didn't expect the thing to take off the way it's doing right now. But hey, I started this, might as well take responsibility for a post I thought would never get further than a handful of reads.

Above all, I don't think that being lawsuit-happy will net me any kind of job in the industry. On the contrary. I'm not after a slam-dunk, I'm trying to get some more job as a quest scripter/writer, git gud at writing (let's face it, AL is nice and all, but there's room for improvement, and I'm expecting you guys to call me out on my shit) and get some heavy magnum opus going when I'm older.

STORY OF MY LIFE WOW LOVE CODEX
 

DosBuster

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
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Messages
1,861
Location
God's Dumpster
Codex USB, 2014
Chateaubryan should definitely check through to gather the evidence and consult a lawyer to see what they say.

Taking inspiration from something isn't illegal but outright copying anything certainly is. Since Bethesda content should be viewable through the construction kit go through and see if there's anything that looks fishy.

One thing is for certain through.
Well, whatever you make with their Toolset/GECK is already owned by Bethesda so you're shit out of luck as a modder. :shittydog:

EULA's like this are incredibly shaky and if there is any evidence in your favor Bethesda would probably settle with you in court rather than test their EULA's validity.

Well, to be honest, my only goal with the original post was to raise awareness about Autumn Leaves. Then, if enough people deemed it good enough, build a community that would support any of my future endeavours, and ultimately spend a non-negligible chunk of my miserable life writing for video games, PREFERABLY MULTI-BRANCHING RPGs. (DOCEX LOVE +++) I didn't expect the thing to take off the way it's doing right now. But hey, I started this, might as well take responsibility for a post I thought would never get further than a handful of reads.

Above all, I don't think that being lawsuit-happy will net me any kind of job in the industry. On the contrary. I'm not after a slam-dunk, I'm trying to get some more job as a quest scripter/writer, git gud at writing (let's face it, AL is nice and all, but there's room for improvement, and I'm expecting you guys to call me out on my shit) and get some heavy magnum opus going when I'm older.

STORY OF MY LIFE WOW LOVE CODEX

In that case, do you genuinely think Bethesda stole anything from your mod? You're the creator and seemingly the only person here who has played both, so settle it now, have they stolen anything or not?
 

Chateaubryan

Cipher
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
369
I wouldn't say shit about this in defense of Bethesda if we could scrape up one person on the whole damn Codex that's actually played both AL and the Brain Dead quest that could write a couple paragraphs about it. Even the modder (and never forget, this guy is a modder, with all that entails) hasn't actually played the BD quest, just watched an LP.
Exactly. I don't know if playing BD would convince me that it has nothing to do with AL, after all, or on the contrary, comforts it even further.
At first I didn't think that affair was worth a damn until more and more people came to tell me that BD was very reminiscent of AL.
 

Chateaubryan

Cipher
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
369
In that case, do you genuinely think Bethesda stole anything from your mod? You're the creator and seemingly the only person here who has played both, so settle it now, have they stolen anything or not?

I have my own presumptions. I made Autumn Leaves. Spent more than four years of my free time doing it. Chances are, I'm naturally biased about the whole matter.
Maybe that's why I'm calling other people in my post to see for themselves.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,079
Well, the good thing is that many more people will play your mod after this whole deal.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Guys, I just blew my mind... what if... Chateubryan makes a mod for Fallout 4 with a great story and quests, maybe Bethesda steals the whole story and Fallout 5 could be the first well written Bethesda game ever. So, Chateubryan, I think you should sacrifice yourself for the cause.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I have my own presumptions. I made Autumn Leaves. Spent more than four years of my free time doing it. Chances are, I'm naturally biased about the whole matter.

Just the fact that you're saying this speaks well of your judgement. Mozg should be a bit more charitable IMO.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Why is this teenager shilling so hard for Bethesda? I mean, fine, you don't think they stole anything, you say that and go on with your life. This guy is like "fight me bros, I'll defend their honor forever".

Wtf? Not really a company worth fighting for.

Unless you're a shill.
 
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Messages
997
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Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Well, whatever you make with their Toolset/GECK is already owned by Bethesda so you're shit out of luck as a modder. :shittydog:

EULA's like this are incredibly shaky and if there is any evidence in your favor Bethesda would probably settle with you in court rather than test their EULA's validity.

I don't think they have to rely on the EULA. Since their Toolset and the base game itself are copyrightable, any mods would be derivative works. In the absence of whatever limited license is granted by the EULA, releasing a mod could be considered an infringement.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
It was probably just one lowly quest designer who played Autumn Leaves and 'borrowed' heavily from it. I doubt any of the higher ups at Bethesda had anything to do with it.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Chateaubryan should definitely check through to gather the evidence and consult a lawyer to see what they say.

Taking inspiration from something isn't illegal but outright copying anything certainly is. Since Bethesda content should be viewable through the construction kit go through and see if there's anything that looks fishy.

One thing is for certain through.
Well, whatever you make with their Toolset/GECK is already owned by Bethesda so you're shit out of luck as a modder. :shittydog:

EULA's like this are incredibly shaky and if there is any evidence in your favor Bethesda would probably settle with you in court rather than test their EULA's validity.
What are the damages, though? Grats, you'll get a free copy of Fallout 5.

Above all, I don't think that being lawsuit-happy will net me any kind of job in the industry. On the contrary. I'm not after a slam-dunk, I'm trying to get some more job as a quest scripter/writer, git gud at writing (let's face it, AL is nice and all, but there's room for improvement, and I'm expecting you guys to call me out on my shit) and get some heavy magnum opus going when I'm older.
Absolutely the right approach. You raise awareness of it/promote yourself. If Bethesderp contacts you, you say 'no harm done, I'm glad someone appreciates my work' then you send them your resume! You're 100% right that suing people for petty damages will get you nowhere fast in the industry versus being cordial and willing to work with them.

In b4 someone says 'lol wut a cuck!' Better a cuck with gainful employment than a rebel with a piddly $1,000 out of court settlement.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
NYMag article: http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/07/...-off-a-member-of-their-modding-community.html

Did the Makers of Fallout 4 Rip Off a Member of Its Devoted Fan Community?

A couple of months ago, Bethesda Game Studios released its first major add-on for Fallout 4, its best-selling post-apocalyptic role-playing game. InFar Harbor, players traveled to a fog-drenched island in Maine, running through quests and collecting loot. But one of those quests, “Brain Dead,” looked familiar to fans in the Fallout modding community, which develops unofficial add-ons for theseries.

A few months before Fallout 4’s release, modder Guillaume Veer released “Autumn Leaves” for Fallout: New Vegas, a preferred iteration of the series that many of its biggest fans uphold for the myriad nonviolent ways that players can resolve quests and encounters. In “Autumn Leaves,” players are called to a vault inhabited by robots in order to solve a mysteriousmurder.

Far Harbor, the official DLC put out by Bethesda, features a quest called “Brain Dead,” in which … players are called to a vault inhabited by robots in order to solve a mysteriousmurder.

The similarities don’t end there. In a blog post on ModDB, Veer wrote about many of the similarities. Both quests feature the player discussing high art with one of the robots. In another shared instance, the player has a sexual encounter with one of the bots (these games are, to say the least, weird as hell). A focal point in both environments is a large, two-level atrium with a balcony around theperiphery.

autumnleaves.w710.h473.2x.jpg

Autumn Leaves.
braindead.w710.h473.2x.jpg

Brain Dead.

In an interview, Veer said, “I wanted to bring the player out of their zone of comfort. Having them play a non-violent questline where they could exert their deductive abilities … and have their worldviews challenged.” A key part of the mod is that it features ways to resolve the conflict aside from violence — this is a trademark quality of older Fallout games that some have criticized Fallout 4 for forgetting. Altogether, Veer worked on “Autumn Leaves” for four years, alongside composers and voice actors, before the finished product was released in2015.

Veer fully acknowledged that in comparing his mod with “Brain Dead,” he was hardly an impartial party, which is why he made the comparative blog post. While the general premise and a few details of both quests are the same, Patricia Hernandez at Kotaku notes that there are stark differences as well. The backstories for how the robots ended up in a fancy underground vault are completely different, and the pacing for “Autumn Leaves” is much looser, more meandering. Also different: the personalities of the robots within thevault.

So “Brain Dead” is hardly a 1:1 replication of Veer’s work. Bethesda did not respond to emails seeking comment, but yesterday, their VP of marketing, Pete Hines, told GameSpot, “We love our mod community and would never disrespect them. I checked, and any similarities between the two are a completecoincidence.”

Are they though? “It’s common knowledge at this point that Bethesda get regular inspirations from the community’s mods,” Veer noted. Fallout 4’s biggest new feature — a base-building mode known as workshop mode — bears a striking resemblance to “Wasteland Defense,” a mod for New Vegas. The mod RobCo Certified lets New Vegas players create custom robot companions, which is the same premise as Fallout 4’s new Automatron add-on. “Bethesda has a history with modders. They know it, everyone knows it. They capitalized on it,” Veeradded.

For Bethesda to try and set itself apart and claim that the similarities are complete coincidence seems disingenuous. You can’t at once claim to be attentive to your users’ contributions and also create new content in a vacuum. “I made this mod for my portfolio, in hopes that one day I would get a job in the gaming industry. Some recognition would really help me get to that point,” Veer admitted, though he never sounded angry or demanding when discussingit.

At the end of the day, these mods are being built using intellectual property owned by Bethesda, so modders already have a dicey sense of ownership over their work. And is adding new writing or dialogue to a game different from adding new gameplay or mechanics? The answer is unclear. A community feeding off of a developer’s output, and vice versa, is part of what makes these games have staying power for years after their release. It benefits everybody. But is it possible that one side might be benefitting a bitmore?
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Kotaku comes to Mozg's aid: http://kotaku.com/why-some-people-have-accused-bethesda-of-ripping-off-a-1783735999

I played through Brain Dead last night, and have spent a couple of hours watching Let’s Plays of Autumn Leaves as well.Based on what I’ve seen and played, the situation seems a bit more complex than what is presented in the blog post. There are indeed similarities, but overtly, both of the quests have enough differences that it would be easy for Bethesda to say it was all just a coincidence.

For one, let’s consider the narrative wrapper: it is completely different. InFallout 4, the hotel is a vault where a Vault-Tec experiment was meant to be held. The hotel was thus built with two wings: one for the working class, and one for the rich. The average vault dweller was set-up to have a miserable experience inside, with their wing of the vault designed to be cramped and uncomfortable. Meanwhile, the wealthy dwellers could expect to have every whim and desire catered to by the masses living on the poor side of the vault. The inequality was basically a ticking time bomb.

In a twist, one of the affluent patrons convinced the other dwellers to transfer their brains into robot bodies so that they could live forever. When the player reaches the hotel, most of it is inhabited by ghouls, with the exception of the moneyed guests, who have managed to survive the apocalypse in robotic bodies, and electric concierges, who dutifully keep things running in the hotel.

Technically, both the mod and the quest end up with a vault populated by robots, some of which are human-like and some of which are there to perform a duty...but the details are still pretty distinct from each other.

Both the quest and the mod have a similar vibe, in that the player has to navigate an upscale vault. That said, the refined air makes way more sense for a hotel than it does a library.

The pacing and overall design of the quest and the mod are different as well. When the player enters Brain Dead in Fallout 4, they walk into fresh crime scene, and all the vault citizens are crowded around the body, causing a commotion. Immediately, the player is asked to look around and gather clues, which are partially gathered by interviewing hotel residents.

In Autumn Leaves, the player enters the vault and is treated to a very extensive lore dump. In the Let’s Play video that I watched, the player didn’t actually discover the body until nearly an hour of playtime, at which point it was revealed that the person had been dead for a long time. From there, an investigation opens up, and the only way to get to the bottom of it is to talk to the robots. Autumn Leaves seem like a more contemplative, if not outright meandering Fallout experience than Brain Dead, and it is easy to get lost in conversation with the robots therein.

The robots, as it turns out, are completely different. As far as I can tell, there aren’t many similarities between the actual characters in the mod and in the Fallout 4 quest. BaronVonChateau characterizes both of them as “eccentric” but that’s pretty broad, and could apply to pretty much anyone in the Fallout universe, period. The entire schtick is that the world has turned mad, after all.

That said, BaronVonChateau points out that both the quest and the mod have a plot point relating to robotic voice modules, and it is specific enough to raise eyebrows. In both instances, the story postulates that a robot is capable of using any voice they please, so long as it is human. Another similarity: the robots in both the quest and the mod ask the player to interpret the metaphorical significance of an item.

This actually happens more than once in Autumn Leaves; at another point, a different robot asks the player what he or she thinks of a toy on her desk, and the player is free to interpret it however they’d like. While this may seem damning to some, after playing Brain Dead, the circumstances look pretty different to me. Yes, you have two robots asking you about paintings. But these characters are nothing alike. On the top you have a painter-gone-mad, a total Oscar Wilde type who sees something like a dead body and thinks it is wonderful inspiration. On the bottom, you’ve got a mega obnoxious robot named Rolland.

BaronVonChateau points to a variety of different similarities like the one above, and you can check them out here. Without context, these allegations present a very strong case: the screenshots have been paired to look the same. If you’ve actually played Brain Dead, however, it is not as clear-cut. For example: BaronVonChateau shows that both the mod and the quest have a robot that propositions you. But it is not like Autumn Leaves came up with the idea of robot fucking; Fallout has pulled that gag for years. Remember Fisto?
 

Renegen

Arcane
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
4,062
You know you're innocent when you start talking like a lawyer "probable cause".
 

Black Angel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
2,910
Location
Wonderland
Props to the mod author for taking the right steps in dealing with this whole affair. It baffles me though, that people tried to defend this piece of shit by keep mentioning the EULA. Are ideas and writings now part of the GECK?
 

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