Vapourware That Which Sleeps - Vaporware Strategy RP

[DramaticPopcorn]

I had hoped this thread would provide entertainment but instead all I got was pain and suffering

 

[mondblut]

I had hoped this thread would provide entertainment but instead all I got was pain and suffering

Endure. In enduring, grow capable of extracting entertainment out of pain and suffering.

 

[Matalarata]

Ah, yes. The unbroken circle of butthurt-him-on...

 

[Vordrak]

The reason Josh isn't showing anything is because of mean people on the forum:

I know now why Josh left. He left because he got to the point where one day he just couldn't face logging in and seeing another day's vitriol. He left because it's impossible to get any actual work done in an environment where everyone is calling you a liar or worse. And now it seems that I must leave as well.

(From a long moderator resignation post)

I sure at least some of the members and posters on the King Dinosaur Games forums are sock puppets. It is the only explanation that makes any sense.

Josh was asked to stay off the forums and agreed to months ago (see earlier in the thread). The only thing stopping him is his dishonesty and not having ever coded the things he claimed.

Report them to the FTC already!

 

[Lightsinthesky]

I say this as a $1000 backer. If I can write it off, so can you.

Pearl of wisdom from the former mod

 

[Vordrak]

I say this as a $1000 backer. If I can write it off, so can you.

Pearl of wisdom from the former mod

Clearly a completely genuine and honest individual. How could you doubt them? Amusingly, they refunded me way back (I wrote a blog post on it) to stop me bringing a breach of contract claim. I got a full refund!

http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=2642

I suggest other people very enthusiastically report KDG to their state consumer body and the FTC and demand their money back. Also consider PayPal and other payment providers may consider enforcing chargebacks if there is evidence of misrepresentation such as statements by the developers pre-dating the close of the Kickstarter that they have later contradicted.

 

[Lightsinthesky]

Well we met. I transferred the KS account and access over to Josh so the next KS post will be authored by him. I think he is going to post over this weekend as well. He is adamant he's still working and is pretty close to a tech release. I really tried to hammer how important it is that we (he) show ownership, accountability, and personal responsibility to this gaggle of angry backers that gave us money - and that no one would be nearly as angry if communication was open the whole time.

So he said he would put some thoughts together and post. Let's see what happens.

Looks like Fenicks is going to be heading for the hills soon. I'm surprised he didn't do that already, the natives on the kickstarter page seem to be about ready to start demanding blood.

 

[Space Satan]

 

[almondblight]

Looks like Fenicks is going to be heading for the hills soon. I'm surprised he didn't do that already, the natives on the kickstarter page seem to be about ready to start demanding blood.

It's funny. Fenicks started King Dinosaur Games, wrote in the KS page that:

By waiting until we have a fully functional and working game engine we feel like we successfully mitigated the most common risks that many games on Kickstarter face. We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion.

And kept making updates talking about how progress is definitely being made. Now it seems like he's trying to dump everything on Josh and run. Ah well.

MRY might be interested in this random comment in the thread:

Josh, Fenicks and many others (the commissioned artists, the Wormwood Studios lore writer, etc) also seem to have invested real work and effort to try to make it a reality.

 

[MRY]

I never registered on the boards, so I can't view the thread.

I don't really know what to say at this point. I have no interest in lending credibility to a deception, and at this point it seems to me that the current posts are more likely than not designed to deceive. Obviously many of the past posts were as well. Who was being deceived, and to what end, I can't really puzzle out. I never really followed the project. I saw the thread here, glanced at the Kickstarter, threw a few bucks at it, wrote some lore (a few hours' work) and recommended one of the Fallen Gods artists, who did art for them at a reasonable pay rate (and he was timely paid). Given the quantity of high-quality art they posted, including UI art and so forth, I think it's fair to assume that some significant portion of the money they received was paid to third parties (i.e., could not have enriched either project creator). And unlike Confederate Express, the content creation happened mostly after the Kickstarter, including post after post after post. Even if they were doing nothing beyond making up lies and mocking up screenshots, the sheer effort of such deception is considerable. I don't see anything much to gain from it. Nor do I see much for them to get by having a long phone call with me in which they described, at length, their goals with the project's dynamic narrative -- it's not like I had deep or open pockets to pick.

That said, I can no longer really say that this was true at least at the inception. Two things now make me skeptical of the project from the get-go. One is that I cannot see how Joe (Fennicks?) would have never seen the build and yet said that there was a build even at the time of the KS launch. As noted earlier, it's impossible for me to imagine a designer/producer not wanting to see the build if it existed. The second is that if the deception had been perpetrated by Josh on Joe with both of them actually aspiring to having a real game, it's hard for me to imagine that Joe wouldn't come clean with backers now. The defensive tone has more the feel of circling wagons than anything.

That's a lot of writing to follow from "I don't really kno what to say." All of my interactions with the two King Dinosaur Games guys were pleasant, they had a significantly realized and interesting game. I can't see how or why things should have gone so awry, but there it is.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Even if they were doing nothing beyond making up lies and mocking up screenshots, the sheer effort of such deception is considerable.

the heist of the century

 

[Angelo85]

Perhaps it was all just preparation for Ocean's 14, method actors getting into character. They would have enough money to pull this off, clearly it's the only logical explanation.

 

[almondblight]

That said, I can no longer really say that this was true at least at the inception. Two things now make me skeptical of the project from the get-go. One is that I cannot see how Joe (Fennicks?) would have never seen the build and yet said that there was a build even at the time of the KS launch. As noted earlier, it's impossible for me to imagine a designer/producer not wanting to see the build if it existed. The second is that if the deception had been perpetrated by Josh on Joe with both of them actually aspiring to having a real game, it's hard for me to imagine that Joe wouldn't come clean with backers now. The defensive tone has more the feel of circling wagons than anything.

Wouldn't be surprised if it's a mix of a couple different things. Fenicks doesn't seem to know much about programming or game development. It's possible that Josh showed him some UI mockups in Unity, said that the engine was mostly done, and Fenicks started to tell people they had a working game. Fenicks must have realized that Josh was lying for hundreds of pages when he was talking about all the awesome stuff the alpha testers were doing in the game, but as far as I know Fenicks didn't participate in those so maybe he just figured Josh's lying didn't matter as long as the final game delivered.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Josh was someone with poor programming skills who thought he could pull things off with the right combination of Unity plugins. "I got the UI, now I just need to find a turn-based game plugin and an emergent AI plugin, then we'll be set." The Greed Monger thread is a pretty good look into the mind of this kind of programmer.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I never registered on the boards, so I can't view the thread.

I don't really know what to say at this point. I have no interest in lending credibility to a deception, and at this point it seems to me that the current posts are more likely than not designed to deceive. Obviously many of the past posts were as well. Who was being deceived, and to what end, I can't really puzzle out. I never really followed the project. I saw the thread here, glanced at the Kickstarter, threw a few bucks at it, wrote some lore (a few hours' work) and recommended one of the Fallen Gods artists, who did art for them at a reasonable pay rate (and he was timely paid). Given the quantity of high-quality art they posted, including UI art and so forth, I think it's fair to assume that some significant portion of the money they received was paid to third parties (i.e., could not have enriched either project creator). And unlike Confederate Express, the content creation happened mostly after the Kickstarter, including post after post after post. Even if they were doing nothing beyond making up lies and mocking up screenshots, the sheer effort of such deception is considerable. I don't see anything much to gain from it. Nor do I see much for them to get by having a long phone call with me in which they described, at length, their goals with the project's dynamic narrative -- it's not like I had deep or open pockets to pick.

That said, I can no longer really say that this was true at least at the inception. Two things now make me skeptical of the project from the get-go. One is that I cannot see how Joe (Fennicks?) would have never seen the build and yet said that there was a build even at the time of the KS launch. As noted earlier, it's impossible for me to imagine a designer/producer not wanting to see the build if it existed. The second is that if the deception had been perpetrated by Josh on Joe with both of them actually aspiring to having a real game, it's hard for me to imagine that Joe wouldn't come clean with backers now. The defensive tone has more the feel of circling wagons than anything.

That's a lot of writing to follow from "I don't really kno what to say." All of my interactions with the two King Dinosaur Games guys were pleasant, they had a significantly realized and interesting game. I can't see how or why things should have gone so awry, but there it is.

Maybe it was all an elaborate ruse in hopes of making an appealing looking product that would get picked up by a big publisher? Who knows.

 

[Helly]

New update

Still Hard at Work


That Which Sleeps is still very much under active development. I know that communication has been terrible of late and I want to apologize again - I haven't been professional, and I know a lot of people see it as us being purposefully disrespectful and I just want to try to explain why I've routinely failed at maintaining the communication you deserve.

That Which Sleeps is a game with a massive simulation aspect, something I've struggled to get working 100%. It's something that was meant to give the game personality that other strategy games lacked, but has in the end cost me years of work with little to show for it on the back-end. The recurring failure has been a source of crushing anxiety for me, and has made facing our backers with that failure something that I've struggled with. Any anxiety you feel over the game's delays I feel just as strongly, and I was continually waiting for things to "come together" so we could release the game in its entirety to our backers.

We are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation. Whether or not I think it would have ever worked fully I understand now that it isn't fair to continually delay the game for an ideal vision. I am sorry for that, and again I am very sorry for all of my failings in this project. I want to emphasize that I have NOT quit and I will not quit working on That Which Sleeps until you get it in your hands.

 

[Lightsinthesky]

Simplifying the AI won't fix that they've got a turn-based strategy game where you can't end the turn. This is probably the stupidest scam in the world, they make a mock-up to bring in kickstarter dollars, they use kickstarter dollars to buy art assets and pair that with stuff mined from Josh's ass to show 'updates' so they can lure in paypal money which they don't need to share with anyone or account for. Then the wheels fall off because Josh won't stop running his mouth off about things he can't possibly deliver on and the fanbase they wanted to milk dissolves into true believers and people who hate their guts.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

New update

Still Hard at Work


That Which Sleeps is still very much under active development. I know that communication has been terrible of late and I want to apologize again - I haven't been professional, and I know a lot of people see it as us being purposefully disrespectful and I just want to try to explain why I've routinely failed at maintaining the communication you deserve.

That Which Sleeps is a game with a massive simulation aspect, something I've struggled to get working 100%. It's something that was meant to give the game personality that other strategy games lacked, but has in the end cost me years of work with little to show for it on the back-end. The recurring failure has been a source of crushing anxiety for me, and has made facing our backers with that failure something that I've struggled with. Any anxiety you feel over the game's delays I feel just as strongly, and I was continually waiting for things to "come together" so we could release the game in its entirety to our backers.

We are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation. Whether or not I think it would have ever worked fully I understand now that it isn't fair to continually delay the game for an ideal vision. I am sorry for that, and again I am very sorry for all of my failings in this project. I want to emphasize that I have NOT quit and I will not quit working on That Which Sleeps until you get it in your hands.

This is a pretty low effort cop out... Using very popular tumblr-ish narrative for guilt tripping those who asked questions.

 

[almondblight]

New update

Still Hard at Work


That Which Sleeps is still very much under active development. I know that communication has been terrible of late and I want to apologize again - I haven't been professional, and I know a lot of people see it as us being purposefully disrespectful and I just want to try to explain why I've routinely failed at maintaining the communication you deserve.

That Which Sleeps is a game with a massive simulation aspect, something I've struggled to get working 100%. It's something that was meant to give the game personality that other strategy games lacked, but has in the end cost me years of work with little to show for it on the back-end. The recurring failure has been a source of crushing anxiety for me, and has made facing our backers with that failure something that I've struggled with. Any anxiety you feel over the game's delays I feel just as strongly, and I was continually waiting for things to "come together" so we could release the game in its entirety to our backers.

We are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation. Whether or not I think it would have ever worked fully I understand now that it isn't fair to continually delay the game for an ideal vision. I am sorry for that, and again I am very sorry for all of my failings in this project. I want to emphasize that I have NOT quit and I will not quit working on That Which Sleeps until you get it in your hands.

This is a pretty low effort cop out... Using very popular tumblr-ish narrative for guilt tripping those who asked questions.

Yeah, I mean I'm sure it's true, but so what? It's like a friend stealing from your wallet, you finding out, and them responding "Look, I know you're unhappy, but do you realize how stressful this has been for me?"

 

[Space Satan]

Still hard at work

 

[ThisNameIsFree]

New update

Still Hard at Work


That Which Sleeps is still very much under active development. I know that communication has been terrible of late and I want to apologize again - I haven't been professional, and I know a lot of people see it as us being purposefully disrespectful and I just want to try to explain why I've routinely failed at maintaining the communication you deserve.

That Which Sleeps is a game with a massive simulation aspect, something I've struggled to get working 100%. It's something that was meant to give the game personality that other strategy games lacked, but has in the end cost me years of work with little to show for it on the back-end. The recurring failure has been a source of crushing anxiety for me, and has made facing our backers with that failure something that I've struggled with. Any anxiety you feel over the game's delays I feel just as strongly, and I was continually waiting for things to "come together" so we could release the game in its entirety to our backers.

We are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation. Whether or not I think it would have ever worked fully I understand now that it isn't fair to continually delay the game for an ideal vision. I am sorry for that, and again I am very sorry for all of my failings in this project. I want to emphasize that I have NOT quit and I will not quit working on That Which Sleeps until you get it in your hands.

WTF he is been doing all this time. He supposed to cut out all shit which impossible to finish in several months. After all this time he still failed to give at least rough estimate how much time before playable alpha...
Does he plan to "work" on game for several years more?

 

[Hobo Elf]

It's the nu-Grimoire, men. Give it another decade and he'll resurface for another wave of crowdfunding for this project when there's a new generation of gullible suckers.

 

[Destroid]

It's the nu-Grimoire, men. Give it another decade and he'll resurface for another wave of crowdfunding for this project when there's a new generation of gullible suckers.

Past evidence indicates that subsequent rounds of funding for failed projects will raise multiple times more than the original.

 

[Angthoron]

They should've just sold spaceship jpgs on their site. Foolish devs.

 

[ThisNameIsFree]

They should've just sold spaceship jpgs on their site. Foolish devs.

Wrong genre. Maybe tentacle porn jpgs.

 

[Vordrak]

This is a pretty low effort cop out... Using very popular tumblr-ish narrative for guilt tripping those who asked questions.

He always used to do that, throughout the whole 1st year. I, or others, would question the constant slippage and then he would say he had moved forward at the cost of some feature or another and / or state that the questions had reduced his willingness to provide information pre-release. Then the cultish Josh fans and the sock puppets would blame all the delays on us dastardly customers asking about release slippage.

He is a manipulative liar. Backers will wait forever for their game and the money is most likely already gone. Backers should demand accounts and report him to the FTC and nothing else.