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How to Make Weapons Feel Different?

Wayward Son

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The recent thread about making the elements of magic feel different has gotten me thinking. What are some ways to make weapon types feel different? I was thinking that blades do bonus damage to unarmored enemies or lightly armored enemies, while blunts may nullify the effects of plate to an extent. And with ranged, make it so that bows fire more often and quickly than crossbows at the same skill level, but give crossbows the advantage of range. Maybe make staves nullify the effects of armor less, but hit faster in the same vein as bows vs crossbows. Anybody rod have some thoughts on this?
 

laclongquan

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Types of damage does not differentiate types of weapon. Cost and raw damage do.

Player dont care that a knife and a baton cause different types of damage (blade versus blunt) they care that the cost of AP/action is same 3AP. By that same vein, they care that the quarterstaff cost 4 AP but have reach range of 2, and they care that flying shuriken got same cost, same range, but higher chance of causing critical (poison) with penalty to damage compared to QS.

Adding the ability (and formula) to dual wield and you increase the value of that weapon despite not much change in visual. you can add one or two special ability to go with dual wield to differentiate them: increased defense/block.

What is the difference between a thrown grenades and a shoot-by-launcher grenades. Thrown types can have all forms, but Launched grenades need to be somewhat uniform in details and backgrounds. You can have incendiary Launched grenades but you can not have molotov, launched. Also, skill is Throwing versus Big Gun, with all the different in stat requirement. Also different in stance: throwing need to be stand, or kneeling, while launching grenades can be all three.

What's the difference between longbow and shortbow? Racial requirement and or body req, increased damage and crit chance. Only some can use longbow but all can use shortbow, training aside.

What's the difference between bare hand attacks and melee? Creator's preferment. Realistic setting usually has bare hand as the least preferred, and longest reach weapon like bow and sling shot are the top. Creator's preference has the range of engagement down to suitable distance so that an emptyhand combatants can just rush the distance with maybe one suffered attack.
 

V_K

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Look at Lords of Xulima, they did a pretty good job with that. Basically, swords and daggers caused bleeding (DoT), axes caused wounds (decreasing enemy's stats), blunt weapons caused stun, and polearms had extended reach (it's actually quite a bit more complex than that, but you get the idea).
 

Wayward Son

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Look at Lords of Xulima, they did a pretty good job with that. Basically, swords and daggers caused bleeding (DoT), axes caused wounds (decreasing enemy's stats), blunt weapons caused stun, and polearms had extended reach (it's actually quite a bit more complex than that, but you get the idea).
Seems interesting. It's on sale, I might grab that.
 

Angelo85

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laclongquan already mentioned many valid points. I disagree about his argument of the type of damage not making weapons feel different and players not caring about it though. I mean just think classic DnD, if you know you will go up against skeletons for example, you absolutely want to bring blunt/crushing weapons. You will definitely notice the difference between blunt and slashing damage in that example. Or also the material can be of importance, a silver coated sword against a pack of werewolves or an obsidian weapon against White Walkers in Game of Thrones for instance. Then there's a whole nother branch of enhanced weapons be it magical like an ice sword or the poisoned dagger of an assassin.
Whether a player cares or not is heavily depending on the underlying game system and how deep it is IMHO.

Besides these basics, types of damage can have attributes associated with them like Wayward Son and V_K said, Battle Brothers is a recent example which implements such a system and it makes a noticeable difference. I think the classic approach is crushing/blunt having relatively low damage but ignoring part of the armor and giving + knock down chance. Slashing/cutting for bleeding + possible maiming and somewhat being the middle-ground damage wise. And finally Impaling/Piercing dealing extra damage - if it can pierce armor - plus knock back or penetrating more than one enemy at once. Classic Rock - Paper - Scissor style.

Categories of weapons can also have attributes/advantages. Like Axes being good to splinter shields, Flails going around them, Daggers being still highly maneuverable in really close combat and thus targeting specific parts with a bonus or +critical chance etc. there can also be negative side effects of weapon categories, for instance an Impaling/Piercing weapon like a spear or pick might get stuck in the enemies body/armor or a very light weapon like an Épée is not able to deflect blows from a much heavier weapon like a huge ass two handed sword resulting in a penalty or negating boni to defenses. Many possibilities here.

A tactical game might also take into account the weapon length, so instead of being restricted to only fight one square/hex whatever apart, some weapons like spear might be able to hit enemies further away. In an even deeper system weapons also might have an optimal fighting range. So sticking with the spear, it might be only fully effective at 2 units apart, and if you fight an enemy 1 unit away it might be less effective or you might have to spend time adjusting the fighting stance. Talking about fighting stances, how about the ability to switch between attack modes with weapons too? Like a sword for instance could be either swung for slashing/cutting or alternatively you could stab with it for piercing damage.

Another thing could be special maneuvers only available to certain weapons/types. A dagger might be thrown, a staff might be used to sweep an enemy, a whip could be used to entagle or disarm etc.

Also weight could be a factor. Lighter weapons are faster, heavier weapons slower. This could give a bonus/penalty to initiative and/or defense.
 

adrix89

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So I have been doing some research on HEMA for how weapons and armor work in the real world.

About the three attack types, slash, pierce and blunt:
Slash is good for any unarmored opponents. Piling a constant amount of wounds and bleeding will eventually exhaust an opponent. But if they have even a bit of armor it becomes completely useless.

Pierce is the most effective attack. On unarmored you can target vitals and on armor you can target the vulnerabilities. The most important thing to understand is that it revolves around accuracy or "critical". A dagger is the most accurate weapon, half-swording is also accurate. A spear can be accurate but the longer the reach used the less accurate you get. You can also use pierce inaccurately against unarmored opponents, this can be especially effective against multiple opponents. Pierce can have some degree of armor penetration but its not all that much.

Blunt is the most effective against armor. Against flexible armor like chainmail and brigandine its especially effective as the force is distributed into the body. On a rigid armor like plate mail its design to glance of shots and use its rigidity to stop the force entering the body. Blunt also does barely any damage to an active aware opponent. That blow to the head for a knockout is a pipe dream. Slog it off until one of you gets bored and dies.

Now the super secret cheat attack that is affective against everything is grappling. On a one on one it all comes down to who can wrestle first and put a dagger behind those brows. Disarm, disable, strangulate, smack all in a glorious mess of limbs everywhere.

Another super cheat attack is range attacks. Especially in ambush in which case you die, hope your games have dodging mechanics that makes you look like a ballerina because they are the few piercing weapons that do pierce armor and those are arrows. It might not outright kill you but you are off to a wonderful start.

Now on to the weapons!
Spears are your bread and butter. The concept of range is very important to understand. What it means is that if I have the range advantage I can threaten you and you can't threaten me. It also means I defend myself by you not being able to hit me. The cost of range is accuracy, while a spear can become more accurate based on the placement of hands and how leverage works that still necessitates a shorter range. Another concept is unwieldiness, based on the physical motions your arms and body makes and the distribution of forces your ability to manipulate a weapon can be limited, this can mean a penalty especially in defense as well as higher trade offs between speed and accuracy. A spear used at a shorter range has a lower speed because of the aforementioned unwieldiness, an opponent who closed the distance to a spear user has the advantage as long as he can maintain it.

A spear in one hand is fairly unwieldy, has no defense ability and very little accuracy.

Staves explores a very interesting concept that resides in spears. They have basically no damage, it can't even be considered a blunt weapon. However it still has range and shows the power to impede, distract and trip an opponent even if it has no offensive power. This means it can be a very powerful defensive weapon and explores the power of unbalancing an opponent. Like grapples a tripped opponent can be killed even if he was impossible otherwise.

Shields. If you want to take on a spear you better have a shield. If you don't have much armor you are going to have a shield. If you don't want to be a arrow ballerina you want a shield. You can negate attacks so that you can close in.

Swords are very good defensive and offensive weapons. They are specially designed for wieldiness. As good accuracy as your going to get outside of a knife. Unarmored opponents you can chop all day. Dual wielding is interesting in its ability to mange more opponents as you have more coverage that can both defend and attack. But you probably are better of with a shield.

Axes. Are a poor man's sword, quite true as it takes less metal and easier to make. They are unwieldy compared to a sword so no ability to defend and no piercing. It has the advantage in chopping things up and the shield is a great equalizer. It also has a nice trick where you can hook things like shields. Can work to impart some force like a hammer.

Pickaxes. Would be a absolutely great blunt weapon if a thing called weapon alignment didn't exist and hammers weren't simply superior. Technically it could have worked as a piercing weapon but I have not seen any historical evidence.

Hammers. Hammers are not flat, they have mini-spikes on them. You bash people with it. Its simply the blunt advantage.

Maces. Same.

Halberds. The goodness of slashing on a polearm. Chops those peasants up.

Poleaxe. The swiss army knife polearm OF DEATH. Bash, chops, pierce, hook in a shorter form then a spear for added wieldiness and accuracy and used by knights in full plate armor as machines OF DEATH.

Now as for the armors:
Paper armor - Armor made of paper. Defense value of 0.
Leather armor - Same as paper armor.
Peasant armor - Same as paper armor.
Cloth based armor - Using layers upon layers of cloth. Gives a surprising amount of protection. Not exactly cheap. The more layers it has the more you look and move like a penguin. Has some blunt dispersion like a pillow but not much
Buff coat - Based on raw hide. Similar to cloth based armor but slightly better. Historically more recent.
Silk armor - Same as cloth but triple the Fabulous!
Chainmail - Basically negates slashing. High cost because of high amount of time to make, putting every fucking individual ring over and over... Lower quality may be pierceable. The worst against blunt.
Loose plates - A wide variety of armors like brigandine that has plates at its base. Still bad against blunt. The best your going to get on the market. Usually worn together with a chainmail shirt below.
Plate armor - A walking tank invulnerable to all damage. Custom fitted for the person, probably needs the status/license to use and costs a fortune. Careful of nasty grapples and trips. Some more loose pieces can be on the market and some opponents might have parts of the armor.

As you can see the effectiveness of weapons is directly tied to how poor people are. Those bandits who have proper armor can be especially nasty. At least shields are cheap.
 
Last edited:

SuperSonicGd

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A good dynamic might be weapons relationship with armor. Heavy armor has amazing credentials lowering damage output, but also slows down your movement/takes up more inventory/might reduce evasion.

How does this effect weapons? Because typically heavier armors were shit against bludgeoning weapons do to friction. So it's a much more accurate rock, paper, scissor in that the tradeoff of wearing armor is you're a sitting duck for anyone with a sceptor. However if they're going to be a child and wield a sword, they deserve to only be dealing single digit damage.

Lower grade armors like leather armor would not have such weaknesses to bludgeoning weapons but don't really provide the sheer damage immunity to slashing/piercing weapons either. In fact, I'd say leather armor should be weak TOO slashing weapons.

This than leaves an issue of piercing weapons. Bows, lances, spears... what makes them credible? Well besides all of those having range of some sort, they were really cheap and abundant. A peasant could pick up a spear and use it with no training necessary. Incorporate that where piercing weapons are the easiest drops, even super rare Diablo 2 style stats on them drop way more than bludgeoning or slashing... but armor is universaly good against them and they don't sell for much at the merchant stops.
 

adrix89

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If you want heavy armor to slow down movement the counter was magic not blunt. Magic is not blockable by armor so you need to dodge. Its simple but it works.
This than leaves an issue of piercing weapons. Bows, lances, spears... what makes them credible? Well besides all of those having range of some sort, they were really cheap and abundant.
...
but armor is universaly good against them and they don't sell for much at the merchant stops.
It's depressing to read about this when historically they were the king. And saying they weren't good against armor,ugh..
 

SuperSonicGd

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It's depressing to read about this when historically they were the king. And saying they weren't good against armor,ugh..
Maybe against lighter armor, but like in grade-school here in Israel we learn about warfare and even anti-tank caliburs don't really hold up against a well armored tank. That's why U.S. troops come in those hulking masses for peacekeeping. Well that, and it's probably the only thing they fit inside.
 

Damned Registrations

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Damage types might make the weapons technically different, but they won't feel any different, because in the end it's just changing something (damage dealt) that can also be changed in other ways, like being stronger or having a higher quality weapon.

If you want to make the weapons feel different, they need to have differences that cannot be found any other way. Range is a good one, attack speed works if it's not also a stat getting changed by other things, ditto for accuracy. Unique on hit effects can work too; make a certain weapon type slow or weaken the enemies it hits, make another weapon type ignore armour entirely, make another deal it's damage over time instead of instantly.

The key is having the traits of the weapon classes be unique to those weapons. If you can get armour piercing attacks from a character class or enchantment or whatever, the weapon type that does it innately is no longer special.
 

SuperSonicGd

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Damage types might make the weapons technically different, but they won't feel any different, because in the end it's just changing something (damage dealt) that can also be changed in other ways, like being stronger or having a higher quality weapon.
Maybe status conditions reflected in those weapons alone?

There's a ton of status ailments out there, some may overlap and just be weaker/stronger variations, but with enough versatility and difference you could basically have well... what Borderlands was SUPPOSED to do.
 

adrix89

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It's depressing to read about this when historically they were the king. And saying they weren't good against armor,ugh..
Maybe against lighter armor, but like in grade-school here in Israel we learn about warfare and even anti-tank caliburs don't really hold up against a well armored tank. That's why U.S. troops come in those hulking masses for peacekeeping. Well that, and it's probably the only thing they fit inside.
Comparing modern tanks the medieval warfare...
 

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