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Decline Where my Bubbles Gone?

Fowyr

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
7,671
What do you mean by "challenge rating?" AFAIK AD&D has no such concept.
You harped about greatness of challenge ratings for several days.

If it weren't for D&D3, I would almost certainly have dropped D&D altogether around then.
Fuck, it's rich. I hate D&D 3ed. Dumbed down "awesuuum!!!" tripe.
So inconsistent and obsolete 2ed (and partly 1st ed) produced great rulebooks, settings, games and all, when so sleek and great D&D 3ed made jackshit.

So we're like two old soldiers still shooting at each other over the trenches long after the war is over. Which I guess makes me the weirder one as my side won.
One day we shall have our revenge.
skeleton-army.jpg
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
I still don't understand how come you think it's awesome that monsters are defined numerically in such detail, while AT THE SAME TIME you're vehemently opposed to a system that lets you define non-combat challenges in similar terms
That's normal for a game about killing monsters. Most RPG systems that try to get into D&D's shoes have half their books with rules of combat. And even not-D&D followers.
Combat is the pinnacle of conflict and it's resolution, life and death matter, so it will always have more rules in most systems.
 
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Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Lhynn. You're contradicting yourself in this very post. Sometimes inside individual paragraphs.
:nocountryforshitposters:


This sentence makes no sense. How can something be "too much information" and "an important factor" at the same time? How does it follow that "you can make your own monsters and assign them those values?" You're contradicting yourself inside one single sentence!
My bad, brain fart. What i meant to say is that that too much information when is not needed leads to clutter, you want to avoid that to keep it as simple as possible paced as possible. On the Other hand encounters need to feel special and unique, therefore unique rules for different monsters are not only a necessity, but the game couldnt survive without them. So basically i was talking about two different things but didnt make the distinction, in my defense was kinda tired of arguing.

What do you mean by "challenge rating?" AFAIK AD&D has no such concept.
Was a reference to your leveled doors and locks. CR became something standard in 3rd edition and it was the worst thing ever.

What I'm calling for/describing is a rule -- a general mechanic that says what "an easy roll" or "a hard roll" actually means
It means whatever the fuck the DM thinks it means. There are examples of quality locks and poor quality locks on the DMG tho, if you are retarded and need more base values.

You know, just like when you're swinging your bastard sword at a monster, and if the monster has AC10 that's "an easy roll" and if it has AC0 that's "a hard roll." Same thing, only as a general rule, not an incoherent mountain of specific ones.
Cant you figure out that if a 0% modifier means normal, a -20% means harder and a +20% means easier? do you need a table? a graph? a map?

You were just arguing against such a rule in the above paragraph: "Nigga you only need a number, you can make it up on the go, you dont need a fucking table. If its hard you make it a hard roll, if its easy you make it an easy roll, that is all the depth is needed, you dont need to describe how hard or how easy it is.
"It's true though that it's not needed in mostly combat centric games: this is why OD&D is a pretty neat system, as it is mostly combat centric. If your mantra is that you don't need rules for non-combat stuff as you can just make stuff up on the fly, then OD&D gets the job done great.
AD&D however isn't mostly combat centric: most of the "A" in AD&D is about non-combat stuff. You know, horse traits, dangers of horse buying, agriculture NWPs and so on and so forth. I.e., OD&D succeeds in what it attempts (to serve as a basis for combat-centric dungeon crawls) but AD&D fails (to serve as a basis for fantasy role-playing in general, not restricted to combat).
As I think you yourself pointed out somewhere, according to the DMG a typical session should have maybe 1-3 fights. That's not all that combat-centric in my book. (I can look that up if you like.)
For any interaction in a non combat story you can use NWP, professions, some class features like spellcasting and base attributes to solve most encounters. The system provides you with special ables and reaction adjustments for most stuff. Wouldnt be a better system if it had more of those things or those rules were more exhaustive and generic, would be easier to understand for dummies, or more "elegant" to the retards that care, but it wouldnt be any more fun, or would actively detract from the experience.

In other words, you're like the guy who stubbornly sticks to his VW Beetle no matter what.
Dude, a PnP system is not a fucking car, can you stop talking in those retarded terms? Jesus fucking christ, how stupid can you be to even draw this comparison?

The very things that make AD&D suck for me
Lets see.

the convoluted
Its not that convoluted, enough to add charm and fram each situation differently, not enough to get in the way of the game. This is the point where i will not budge, having to roll high for some, low for other, d100 for other is not overly complex, and it makes the whole situation play differently because you want a different result, its simple but makes for memorable moments.

incoherent
Its not incoherent tho. You only cited one rule, the fall one, thats known for its lack of detail, most rules in the game were designed for normal sized actors, just adjust for size and the rule works fine.

layered-on rules covering hundreds of specific situations with huge gaps between them
Why is this bad?

and no general fallbacks
This is great, stop trying to make everything the same, its fucking boring. This isnt excel you asshole, not everything needs to fit in a single column.

are the things you love about it.
Fuck you.

Just like the VW guy loves his Beetle because he needs to carefully adjust the choke to get it to start in the morning, hunt for spares in junkyards
No, stop being retarded.

How is there even a parallel here?

spend his evenings taking that air-cooled 1.6 apart and putting it back together
Sounds more like 3.5 retarded character optimization.

and also that musty smell inside makes him think of his high-school crush. That is rather wonderful and lovely.
Are you high?

But that doesn't change it that it's a hooptie, and if the owner is self-aware enough, he'll laugh, agree, and say yeah, that's exactly why he loves it.
This whole stupid excercise would only work if you were trying to convince me to swich my old car that works, for a new car that doesnt.

That would've made this a pretty short conversation though.
Maybe, but you are so retardedly misguided in your preconceptions there was no way it could ever be the case.

Finally i despise your idea about generic unifying mechanics, its a retarded idea born from a weak mind. It sanitizes the system, makes it boring and uneventful to navigate. PoE mechanics are shit exactly because of this.
 

Wayward Son

Fails to keep valuable team members alive
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Anytown, USA
As I think you yourself pointed out somewhere, according to the DMG a typical session should have maybe 1-3 fights. That's not all that combat-centric in my book. (I can look that up if you like.)
Idk, my typical sessions have two to three fights in them (at most) and they last for a few (2-3) hours. And that's because we roll bad(DM included), not because of some over-complicated system. Also, sometimes it seems that you and Lhynn throw a argument that could and sometimes has been used against you. Just an observation.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I've finally run out of steam on this discussion, so I'll just end it with a single-paragraph summary of what I've learned, both about my own preferences and yours, Lhynn.

My PoV:

I want a PnP ruleset to be straightforward, consistent, focused, and to cover as many gameplay situations as possible with as few different rules as feasible, while providing enough variety to keep things interesting. If a player says "I'm attempting <task>," or "I want to play a character like <character>," I want the rules to provide sufficient guidance to be able to resolve success or failure easily, fairly, consistently, and with believable results. The rules aren't supposed to be interesting. They're supposed to provide a framework where the interesting things happen, and then stay out of the way. Learning to play with a PnP system means understanding its logic and being able to apply it in gameplay, not memorising rules.

Lhynn's PoV as I've understood it:

The rules themselves must be flavourful and varied, using different dice rolled different ways for different things. AD&D is great because it embodies years of RPG tradition and experience, from the early days of Chainmail to the depths of Planescape, and this tradition and richness is encoded not only in the settings and stories, but in the myriad of specifics, from Bend Bars percentages to horse trait tables, artistic PCs to elf level caps. AD&D rules in and of themselves, apart from the awesome background materials, are fuel for the imagination. The gaps in them are just as important as they let that imagination run free. Learning AD&D isn't about understanding some kind of logic, it's a voyage of discovery in its own right.

If you want the last word after this, Lhynn, you're welcome to it. In any case, thanks for the discussion -- it was both interesting and enlightening.
 
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Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
If there's anything AD&D will always be remembered for, it's the Random Harlot Encounter Table. Who doesn't want to know whether the woman up front is a slovenly trull, a brazen strumpet or a cheap trollop?
 

throwaway

Cipher
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
492
Thread only delivered until the edgelords (curious how only Fairfax didn't fit a very particular template) attempting to organize a pogrom against the Jew and the immigrant ran out of steam. The fact that I spend fuck knows how long reading this dross despite not having played a vidya in 11 months makes me reconsider my relationship with this hobby.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Messages
35,653
It is funny how the edgelords all rallied around Bubbles when the guy himself is an anti-Trump, refugee-welcoming Deutschcuck. Though he keeps that part of himself on Something Awful and not here. +M
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,734
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
It is funny how the edgelords all rallied around Bubbles when the guy himself is an anti-Trump, refugee-welcoming Deutschcuck. Though he keeps that part of himself on Something Awful and not here. +M

He wrote good content, his degenerate views were forgivable under the circumstances.
 

markec

Twitterbot
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Joined
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Messages
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Croatia
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
It is funny how the edgelords all rallied around Bubbles when the guy himself is an anti-Trump, refugee-welcoming Deutschcuck. Though he keeps that part of himself on Something Awful and not here. +M

Just because I dont agree with someones political views doesnt mean I will remain silent when injustice is inflicted upon that person.
 

imweasel

Guest
It is funny how the edgelords all rallied around Bubbles when the guy himself is an anti-Trump, refugee-welcoming Deutschcuck. Though he keeps that part of himself on Something Awful and not here. +M
He looks like a typical German leftist cuck so this isn't surprising.

I bet seeing the head honcho (DU) and other Trump bros with a Trump tag broke his little liberal heart.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
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Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
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In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
It is funny how the edgelords all rallied around Bubbles when the guy himself is an anti-Trump, refugee-welcoming Deutschcuck.

Trump.png


Wait, weren't you hated here as an SJW once, or do I have false memories? Can someone update me on my Roguey-lore?
 

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