Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dominions 4 Intercommunity Game

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
Some dudes did some testing and the map placed shared cap rings from two teams, Berytos away from water and generally teammates all over the place. So yeah, as usual.

Johannes How did you arrive at N9? Its not a typical bless for Pan or Vanheim who both usually run W9. Its also a shitty offensive bless mainly good for thugs. Seir don't need N9 either. The team has some thug potential but I wouldn't say N9 gives a lot early power.
I don't think W9 is that good on MA Vanheim. Van/valk attacks are still of so low strength that they'll get tired and die against even some p. basic opposition. N9 gives everything a good boost, it works with everything, even if it's not optimal for white centaur it works well for them. And yes, gives you a lot of thug options (Vanjarl / Kohen Gadol / Malakh). And the boost it gives to communions is also a great boon (though the Kohens can support a lot of masters with just a basic regen spell cast by a master). I don't think Seirim are that big a consideration now since the summoning speed got quartered in some patch, though they do still work with N9.

For early game, just having enough stealthy troops around is crucial (and fighting PD, N9 cuts attrition just as well as W9). Almost regardless of bless you can't take Wot5E or Vanheres on in a direct battle early, but have to dance around them for a while and win by logistics.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach

The University of North Florida. - EA LANKA, EA Yomi, EA TC

Sacred-Heavy lineup, Lanka has skellispam and an awesome array of thugs\SC chassis. Dakini uber alles, for a starter. EA TC is a solid human nation, W4E are good if blessed heavily. Yomi lives and dies for Oni Kings SCs. They'll take an heavy bless and T3L3 and they'll rush anything that moves.
Why would they rush that much? Only TC can properly fight in Order early, and having Yomi in limits how extreme a bless it makes sense to take. Better to keep more defensive (though with fast expansion) and boom up the blood hunting and undead raising.



Something Awful - EA Pan, LA Lemuria, EA Helheim

SA has some top-tier players, do we know who is in? EA Pan is good (worse than MA Pan though) LA Lemuria is 15 free gems for shitty summons and no freespawn. Ea Helheim is good elves. If this one is not played WELL (as good old Grimwulf defined "in a non-librul" way) so with heavy microing it's kinda weak. But hey, they got Lemuria, they have a plan. Probably BOT'ing everyone.
I wouldn't rule out them putting Lemuria as the pretender and going full cancer. Not saying it's good necessarily, but...



vanheim - MA Vanarus, EA Fomoria, MA Arcoscephale

It's a flexible team. Arco sucks, and Fomoria is suboptimal, but it's a flexible team.
Fomoria is a top-tier teamgame nation. Doesn't need a bless (but can use one if it's present), has sailing, UW, stealth, and trapezing SC chassis. Plus possibly the single best battlefield spell in the lategame (Dance of Morrigans). MA Arco is not so hot at least early on, but the Mind Hunt threat is something you have to watch out for.


dHeHT78.jpg
A non-wraparound would turn into a total slog later on, especially with the hard to traverse center. The random map may well have the same problem already, a big map would ideally have some sort of fast travel way by portals or shortcut caves or smth like that.



Random note: LA Ulm is the only nation with crossbows (unless i missed smth). What era are the indies / site frequency?
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
If we are sharing random observations then I think that Gath troops will do really well here. Usually shit like slingers wouldnt fly in LA games but against EA TC or Yomi? Murderous.
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,466
Location
Shaper Crypt
Why would they rush that much? Only TC can properly fight in Order early, and having Yomi in limits how extreme a bless it makes sense to take. Better to keep more defensive (though with fast expansion) and boom up the blood hunting and undead raising.

Uh, yer completely right.

Something Awful - EA Pan, LA Lemuria, EA Helheim

I wouldn't rule out them putting Lemuria as the pretender and going full cancer. Not saying it's good necessarily, but...

Prob is, can they mantain the expansion tempo? Pan has no good undead commanders and it requires gold, Helheim ...... I don't see it working. Is SA cancerous enough to try Ermor Redux?

Random note: LA Ulm is the only nation with crossbows (unless i missed smth). What era are the indies / site frequency?

LA Caelum has sacred crossbows. Jomon has composite bows. That's it.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
EA TC also has excellent archers if we count bows not crossbows. So does Sauro.

And actually PAN has very good tough archers too. They counter EA TC sacreds easily.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach

Prob is, can they mantain the expansion tempo? Pan has no good undead commanders and it requires gold, Helheim ...... I don't see it working. Is SA cancerous enough to try Ermor Redux?
[/QUOTE]
You're right about the Pan undead leadership, makes it a lot less likely. Helheim doesn't have UD leadership in PD either which I thought they did (vanherse leader, not helkarl there).


EA TC also has excellent archers if we count bows not crossbows. So does Sauro.

And actually PAN has very good tough archers too.
You mean the 25g centaurs or what? I can't see that working out except as a last ditch effort that eats all your (whole team's) gold...
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
It works when you need to pop TC sacreds or snipe some commanders that are mounted/flying etc. Certainly not your best unit but situationally useful.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
I was thinking Gath with a Moloch(who can also do early soul contracts), Pan with Prince of Death(also for the big summons later). Dragons and Serpent bore me, but if there are better choices by all means, I am not the best Pretender/Disciple picker.

The above is assuming we don't want a Disciple to specialize in something else.
Prince of Death is terrible all around. You're much better off with a Master Lich - cheaper, cheaper pathcost, immortal, more prot, even if it lacks flying and less Hp. Pure D is not good for an SC anyway. A3D7 / S3D7 / A2D6x2 Lich gets you a teleporting immortal skelespammer, (or bone grinding spammer) or a good SC too just as well if needed.

Gorgon is another thing to consider but the low HP is p. risky, and doesn't really bring new paths to the table.

Hound of Hades is the only non-slotted thing I'd consider, since it can get high D for cheap, and has magic attacks so isn't instantly outdated after expansion like a serpent.

Sage with whatever paths is a decent choice if you've got a clear idea of a research goal you need to reach and that you can put to powerful use instantly.

For Gath you have Shedu (High S for cheap + flying trample), Scorpion King (good cheap SC chassis who can afford a 3rd path of your choice - probably A for trapeze, and elemental staff later), and Moloch (Much more expensive than Scorp King, has better stats but much lower magic - Soul Contracts are not that impressive imo, and high B is not so useful on an SC. But you can just afford a 3rd path on the Moloch for better SCing), plus the Lich and Sage are always there too.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
Yea, paths are more important than the chassis itself assuming you get full slots and decent base hp.

Immortals have huge defensive use but other than that I wouldn't call them great.

Vanheim has a great utility forger disciple in the eldest dwarf who could make rings, D boosters, A boosters and staves by himself.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
Vanheim has a great utility forger disciple in the eldest dwarf who could make rings, D boosters, A boosters and staves by himself.
The forger bonus doesn't really matter. You can forge the same things with another chassis too (and Vanheim can do A boosters and staves natively), what rituals (or rarely, combat spells) you can cast is just as important. Sage isn't just about the research bonus, but starting with S is good if you want the rings.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
Vanheim has a great utility forger disciple in the eldest dwarf who could make rings, D boosters, A boosters and staves by himself.
The forger bonus doesn't really matter. You can forge the same things with another chassis too (and Vanheim can do A boosters and staves natively), what rituals (or rarely, combat spells) you can cast is just as important. Sage isn't just about the research bonus, but starting with S is good if you want the rings.

No its fairly massive when you want one devoted disciple to do it all. Means -1 for ring forging so you can do it with S4 instead of S5, count the points. D boosters for D3, A boosters for A3, staves for E3A3.

You can do a A3E3S4D3N4 dwarf. He can forge two rings, elemental staves, all air, death boosters and moonvine bracelet/treelord staff.
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
Question is, is any of that worth it over a combat Disciple in the first year? If we survive it definitely is mid-late game. I expect this to be a low diplomacy game(for Dominions), and that makes things more risky imo.

Johannes, why no love for soul contracts? Too expensive? Too annoying to waste paths on?

Even with just 2-3 in games, the devils pile up. Set it and forget it, and before you know there's 30 devils, ready to raid any province, kill SCs, support armies. Admittedly it's hard to calculate cost effectiveness.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,487
Location
casting coach
Vanheim has a great utility forger disciple in the eldest dwarf who could make rings, D boosters, A boosters and staves by himself.
The forger bonus doesn't really matter. You can forge the same things with another chassis too (and Vanheim can do A boosters and staves natively), what rituals (or rarely, combat spells) you can cast is just as important. Sage isn't just about the research bonus, but starting with S is good if you want the rings.

No its fairly massive when you want one devoted disciple to do it all. Means -1 for ring forging so you can do it with S4 instead of S5, count the points. D boosters for D3, A boosters for A3, staves for E3A3.

You can do a A3E3S4D3N4 dwarf. He can forge two rings, elemental staves, all air, death boosters and moonvine bracelet/treelord staff.
Again - you don't need the dwarf to do any AE Elemental staff shit, Vanheim already has it covered. Why would you waste your disciple points / time to forge those?
N2 would be enough for the dwarf in any case, to get Treelords Staff (borderline useless item tho, so who cares), allowing him to buy say, F1W1B1 crosspaths. That would be a bit better, but still not quite optimal. E2 would be enough for the staff also btw.

You have to think - why are boosters important? Why is a specific expensive booster important (not talking about 10gem massproduced shit obviously)? You want to get to specific spell X, usually. When will you need that spell? You reach most booster's path requirements eventually anyway if you want (especially so as a team), if you can and want to forge RoS. Will you need a specific booster, say Skullface, before RoS? Why? I'm not saying you can't have a reason but you do need one. You don't always want to make a booster even if you can, either.

A dwarf may be able to forge boosters a bit more and earlier than a human, but if he wears them he's only getting even in that path to the human that way.

The dwarf is borderline better at forging, but loses out on all the other uses of a rainbow - sitesearching, research, rituals. You can't just think that eventually you can forge X, Y, Z. What are you doing with him early on, and what then? Thinking about the turn to turn activity is probably more important than what singular big things you can reach.

Also Vanheim overall is a poor nation for a rainbow meant for forging, due to having the slowest research in the team. A sage could be justified in order to turn that around, but a Dwarf can't do it.

For example a F3A1W3E1S6D1N2B1 or F3A2W3E1S5D2N2B1 sage could forge p. much any reasonable thing I'd need - the big boosters are reachable once you have RoS and summons, Elemental Staff (FW) reached with cheapo boosters, you can forge Robe of the Sea right off the bat (ok, needs gems somewhere), summon F and W mages, can do Rune Smashers, so on and so forth. And ofc a good researcher, which early on counts the most.

If you just want certain boosters, you can do that with a combat chassis. Say, a S5D4 Lich to make rings and Skullface for you. Who can use most of his time fighting. A Lich like that would be a fun Mind Dueler actually...



Question is, is any of that worth it over a combat Disciple in the first year? If we survive it definitely is mid-late game. I expect this to be a low diplomacy game(for Dominions), and that makes things more risky imo.
Remember that any boosters still need a user. An SC disciple is not just his chassis but also his paths -they don't have any best before date either, can cast and forge just as well as a rainbow though with a narrower selection.


Johannes, why no love for soul contracts? Too expensive? Too annoying to waste paths on?

Even with just 2-3 in games, the devils pile up. Set it and forget it, and before you know there's 30 devils, ready to raid any province, kill SCs, support armies. Admittedly it's hard to calculate cost effectiveness.
They cost a lot of slaves. When are you hunting for those slaves? If you're worrying about staying alive, Contracts are the last thing you should be doing. Use those mages to research or summon troops you can use right away.
 

Eadee

Scholar
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Messages
360
Location
Arrakis
You guys realize that discussing strategy here means that the enemy can read it up right?
Maybe we start a codexian only private conversation for details?
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
You guys realize that discussing strategy here means that the enemy can read it up right?
Maybe we start a codexian only private conversation for details?

Oh yeah, we have a convo going with the players/sub. I don't mind talking strategy in here, just bouncing ideas around. They ought to be able to guess most of this stuff.
 

sum1won

Novice
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
7
Guys, I need to know who your pretender is (and also I need your nation submissions) before I can start this.
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
It would seem our first encountered neighbor is dom4mods, of LA/MA Mictlan and MA Bandar. They're rockin' a W4N9B9 bless.

Not really too familiar with them aside from lurking and once in a blue moon a post. I expect their players are plenty good though.
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
N9B9W4 has fuckall killing power though. Its more of a tank bless.

True, and I imagine their Pretender is imprisoned.

The good news is that team Pelagia is to our south somewhere, and might be easy pickings. (On the very low chance of lurkers, WE COME IN PEACE).
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,266
Location
Poland
N9B9W4 has fuckall killing power though. Its more of a tank bless.

True, and I imagine their Pretender is imprisoned.

The good news is that team Pelagia is to our south somewhere, and might be easy pickings. (On the very low chance of lurkers, WE COME IN PEACE).

No what I actually meant is you guys could fuck them up. Mictlan is strong but that bless wont help them much early on.

Late game it will be a horror show tho.
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
N9B9W4 has fuckall killing power though. Its more of a tank bless.

True, and I imagine their Pretender is imprisoned.

The good news is that team Pelagia is to our south somewhere, and might be easy pickings. (On the very low chance of lurkers, WE COME IN PEACE).

No what I actually meant is you guys could fuck them up. Mictlan is strong but that bless wont help them much early on.

Late game it will be a horror show tho.

Ah, yeah. We could, but right now our position is.... a little disjointed and it would be hard to pull off. We'll see how these next few turns shake out though.
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,466
Location
Shaper Crypt
If someone cares, RPG.Net tried to jump on us causing some damage in the initial blitzkrieg, but their offensive has been stopped before they could reach the Motherland and one of their Gods has been killed by KoolNoodles' Strategic genius.

DSC_1046.jpg


In the unlikely case someone at RPG.Net is readin' this, I hope you are triggered hard enough. Feel free to contact the mods to ask for my ban.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom