Is the RPG genre doomed financially without kickstarter?

[Alienman]

This may have been talked about, but anyway.

I'm starting to wonder that maybe the RPG genre is doomed? (if you don't count the Fallouts and Skyrims). With that I mean, when the kickstarter craze started I was disillusioned to think that these things were a one time thing. That the studios asking for money, just needed the money for this one project and that the game sales down the road would take them further on from there. But nope! The studios that once asked for kickstarter money keep going back for new projects. It seems the studios struggle without our/fans help. Is this really financially viable long term or is the genre at risk? I'm personally already feeling the kickstarter fatigue and it is kinda discouraging that we are not gonna see any "old school RPGs" without the help of kickstarter funding - at least bigger ones.

Then we have Fig. The cynic in me tells me we are being taken advantage of as fans, but then again if RPGs can only exist with our help, then maybe it will have to be. What do you all think?

 

[pippin]

No. The need for kickstarters is not indicative of an economical situation, but a problem with management, imo. Consider Larian vs Obsidian vs inxile (especially inxile).

 

[Howdy]

is the RPG genre doomed?

Yes, finally.

 

[Lurker King]

On the contrary. Kickstarter model is dooming the genre in the sense that it allows incompetent developers to fool nostalgic backers without any accountability, release cash grab shallow games and lower the standards of the genre. It is not surprising that the most interesting cRPGs in this interim were not kickstarted, e.g., Neo Scavenger, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Legend of Grimrock, Battle Brothers, etc. The genre is not doomed if InXile, Obsidian or Harebrained Schemes fails, because the cRPG genre is not determined by two, three or even five studios.

 

[laclongquan]

Eh, RPG was pronounced doom during the golden age of RTS too, and here we still are.

 

[Lurker King]

Yes, and some codexers talk as if we needed new games every year, but most players barely had the time to play half of the ungodly amount of recent releases. This is not healthy.

 

[anvi]

There are a few good RPGs that survive without Kickstarter, games like Pantheon are being funded by private investors. But I think Kickstarter is a great thing for gaming and we would be a shitty place without it. The problem is that the mainstream gamer has become uneducated in gaming, they think the most important things are animations, graphics, voice acting etc. To make the big money you have to develop with those people in mind, and that costs insane amounts of money, so they can't afford to have things like depth or challenge getting in the way of their money making potential. And it is a self fulfilling prophecy too because occasional hardcore games that still make it out, Blackguards, DoS, etc. don't sell well enough to convince anyone that they are wrong. And yet dumb yet attractive shit like Shadows of Mordor etc. sells great. So it proves to the management that they were right all along.

 

[KK1001]

The problems exist at the industrial level and won't be solved without a major shakeup of the way games are financed and by whom.

 

[laclongquan]

Today situation is different from 10 years ago.

Last time it's distribution methods. Nowaday it's getting funding method. Because with torrent and shits we really dont care about distribution channels anymore. If you can gather 100k backers, that mean your funding AND your player base is secure. You can thumb your nose at publishers.

 

[Severian Silk]

Steam/GOG have given PC gaming a boost in general because they are so ergonomic. Kickstarter (and Early Access) also helped there being more niche games including RPGs, because devs get paid upfront and can count on long-term digital sales, even if the dollar amount per download ends up being low. With Kickstarter, you're basically getting paid to market your game, versus the other way around. Without these services, I'm not sure we'd see a lot of good RPGs being made. As I said in another thread, without Kickstarter and Steam, RPGs could still make financial sense in E. Europe like in the 2000s, just not in the West.

Basically, Kickstarter plus long-term digital sales make financial sense. Unity helped too.

 

[Alienman]

No. The need for kickstarters is not indicative of an economical situation, but a problem with management, imo. Consider Larian vs Obsidian vs inxile (especially inxile).

What makes Larian special out of the three? Their sequel Original Sin 2 was funded by kickstarter as well, even when their first game seem to have been a financial success. Are we just being taken advantage of for some early profits or is that money truly needed for development? Then I wonder, where did all that cash go from the sales? I do understand that it cost a lot to develop games, but to me it is a bit disappointing that none of these studios are self sustained by now.

On the contrary. Kickstarter model is dooming the genre in the sense that it allows incompetent developers to fool nostalgic backers without any accountability, release cash grab shallow games and lower the standards of the genre. It is not surprising that the most interesting cRPGs in this interim were not kickstarted, e.g., Neo Scavenger, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Legend of Grimrock, Battle Brothers, etc. The genre is not doomed if InXile, Obsidian or Harebrained Schemes fails, because the cRPG genre is not determined by two, three or even five studios.

I see your point, but then again before the "golden age of kickstarter" there was a long time of nothingness. Well, at least according to Codex. That is the impression I get. I do also understand the comment about cash grabs and lowered standards, since I didn't like Wasteland 2 nor Pillars that much and it is hard to compare these titles to the old games since they seem to be lacking something the old games had. But it just seems without kickstarter we would get nothing at all? Except those games you mentioned of course. Fine games by themselves but I wouldn't say personally that they come close to that RPG experience I want (subjective yes, I'm all for the nostalgia). Underrail comes close but that game is 99% combat

(Where is the interesting emote?)

 

[Alienman]

There are a few good RPGs that survive without Kickstarter, games like Pantheon are being funded by private investors. But I think Kickstarter is a great thing for gaming and we would be a shitty place without it. The problem is that the mainstream gamer has become uneducated in gaming, they think the most important things are animations, graphics, voice acting etc. To make the big money you have to develop with those people in mind, and that costs insane amounts of money, so they can't afford to have things like depth or challenge getting in the way of their money making potential. And it is a self fulfilling prophecy too because occasional hardcore games that still make it out, Blackguards, DoS, etc. don't sell well enough to convince anyone that they are wrong. And yet dumb yet attractive shit like Shadows of Mordor etc. sells great. So it proves to the management that they were right all along.

I agree, but at the same time it is strange considering how big gaming has become. You would think it would be big enough to sustain both markets, the casual one and the more hardcore one. But for some reason, while the amount of people playing has increased a lot over the last couple of years, the hardcore market of gaming seem to have stagnated or gotten smaller. At least that is my impression since money is always tight for these "hardcore" studios. I mean some spillage from casuals to hardcore is expected, but it just seem to have no effect money wise.

 

[anvi]

There are a few good RPGs that survive without Kickstarter, games like Pantheon are being funded by private investors. But I think Kickstarter is a great thing for gaming and we would be a shitty place without it. The problem is that the mainstream gamer has become uneducated in gaming, they think the most important things are animations, graphics, voice acting etc. To make the big money you have to develop with those people in mind, and that costs insane amounts of money, so they can't afford to have things like depth or challenge getting in the way of their money making potential. And it is a self fulfilling prophecy too because occasional hardcore games that still make it out, Blackguards, DoS, etc. don't sell well enough to convince anyone that they are wrong. And yet dumb yet attractive shit like Shadows of Mordor etc. sells great. So it proves to the management that they were right all along.

I agree, but at the same time it is strange considering how big gaming has become. You would think it would be big enough to sustain both markets, the casual one and the more hardcore one. But for some reason, while the amount of people playing has increased a lot over the last couple of years, the hardcore market of gaming seem to have stagnated or gotten smaller. At least that is my impression since money is always tight for these "hardcore" studios. I mean some spillage from casuals to hardcore is expected, but it just seem to have no effect money wise.

I think that is true though, the niches are getting big enough now to support lots of great games. I don't think DoS and an upcoming sequel would exist without decent sized niche of players, same goes for Wasteland 2, and lots of other great non RPGs like RimWorld, Factorio, Terraria, etc.

 

[Telengard]

There were indie rpgs made during the Era of Decline, too. But nobody played those, generally saying it was because the graphics "hurt their eyes". Something about the Kickstarter funding method, though, suddenly made it okay to pay for indies. These same people can't pay money to the dev directly to buy their games, oh no. But they can and will pay Kickstarter to pay the dev. That's different. Somehow.

Probably, what's different is the dream concept inherent in Kickstarter - the dream of paying someone to make your dream game. Of course, you're not actually paying for your dream game. No, you're paying for a bunch of recent college grads to make as close to an approximation of their dream game as they can make on a budget.

But yay, you were a part of the creative process! Sort of.

And then the results finally get produced, and you find that a random group of college grads can't evoke the same feeling in you that you once had from a game made by an entirely different group of people. And I must say I'm totally shocked - shocked - that a different group of people produce a different type of work, and especially so when they are making it during an entirely different decade.

So, yes, nothing has changed on the crpg scene. And always and forever, Codexers will complain about there being no real D&D games anymore, and Knights of the Chalice II will rot on the shelves while everyone is busy with Fallout VI, but complaining about how horrible Fallout VI is every step of the way, and how WotC just doesn't understand what the community really wants. And they'll point once again to Larian and the Xcom remake, and totally ignore that most of the Kickstarter RPGs are very lucky to even break 100,000 units - refusing to acknowledge that investors look at the whole market, not cherry-picked singlets.

So, yes, Kickstarter and Eastern European cut-rate rpgs are where the genre is at, and where it will stay for the forseeable future. Which will give fair Codexia plenty to complain about while they're playing Fallout VI and voting Mass Effect: Andromeda 2 rpg of the year and laughing about how Knights of the Chalice II hurts their eyes (just like the days of Dragon Age: Origins and Knights of the Chalice I). Because Codexia talks a big game, but the industry knows what they really like in their secret heart of hearts*.








* drow on drow lesbian sex

 

[Ismaul]

drow on drow lesbian sex

it's not polite to read others' minds man

 

[laclongquan]

drow on drow lesbian sex

Not disagree with the other points, but this point I must object. black girls are just... meh~ And sharp angular facial feature is overrated, same as ear tip.

light elf or white human lesbian sex is where it's at~

 

[Invictus]

I say the real problem with Kickstarter nowadays is that it has become sort of a presale gauge both for developers and producers; of your game has enough backers they count as sold units per se and that money is taken for developing the game instead of going straight to the publisher, but it now has turned like the Shenmue deal with Playstation where they wanted to see how much public interest there was on the franchise to invest on a new sequel
On the other hand it HAS helped to respark interest in lesser known genres or styles of games so publishers like Harebrained Schemes have enough backing to develop different styles of games simultaneously that somehow would not have been able to get made before...but then again you have developers like InXile who screw up their own products by trying to reach the holliest of hollies (making console games too) and end up screwing up their developments of already Kickstartered games
I normally dont see problems with Kickstarter since the actual commitment is lower than a normal release game ($20-$40) but then again take it with a bit of salt since I plucked $100 for Grimoire 4 years ago and you know how THAT has turned
Out

 

[Severian Silk]

What are you talking about? There is only 1 micro issue left, and the game will be released next Thursday!

 

[laclongquan]

In the old day the interest counter is the number of preorders, so it's not that different.

The difference is this major commitment to communication between backers and game devs. You are practically required to communicate much much better with your players, your gamers, your investors than before when you can once every full moon make a forum post.

It's a new thing, signal of Internet Age, Stage Two.

 

[Apexeon]

Kickstarter in now Kick preorder for old washed up AAA developers.

They are sucking the life out of it and ruining it for us indies down the bottom who do really need a little Kick.
Cut features and doing a bad job of making a game hurts the whole of kickstarter (the concept of helping a Dev get on there feet and not fund one that is up and running). I can run off a list of million dollar plus kickstarters done by hack AAA fags that produced turds.

Mighty 9 what a piece of shit that was for what 3.8 MILLION. That must of been a lot of coke & hookers (3.7million) for the management team while they outsourced production to india for 100K

It should of been you hit your target and your done (the kickstarter is funded, go build). You say you need a million then get it and build what you state. But Kickstarter is also in it for the cash so they never put in a feature to say the target is met and done deal.


So now all we are going to see is this on kick preorder or Fig or whatever bullshit preordering system these ex AAA old farts have come up with.

Banner saga all you can eat 8
Pillars of Boredom 5.
Wasteland 5.4 Playstation 6 Decline friendly edition
Divinity the were still at it 6
Shadow run gravy train 7

I am going to play some real incline and drink beer with all the money I saved.
Underrail ($10 ea) and Dungeon rats ($8.99).

 

[Somberlain]

RPGs are doomed if no one stops inEptile.

 

[shihonage]

RPGs are doomed if no one stops inEptile.

Be careful, lest you be attacked by Fargots

 

[Somberlain]

Are you the one that pledged to Torment? Odd to see so many people complain about content that should have been in the game. Hope the Kickstarter staff treated you okay. I swear they hacked our stretch goals list.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

I changed my mind about this several times already so I don't really feel qualified to add a lot to the discussion.

How it looks at the moment, the second generation of Renaissance RPGs sure seems to have a harder time to get money over KS. This is not really the biggest problem though, since they even have problems to sell their games in the first place. Some exceptions (Battletech, Div:OS) notwithstanding we will have to see how this develops.

 

[Barnabas]

They should be fuckun rolling in money since the fans pay for development